How Strong Is The Mind?

[charlie2dogs]

2 minutes ago, Piotr said:

@charlie2dogs  There's a very thin line between getting dissociated and being told to get detached for someone who cannot get still and out of the mind, that's all I'm saying.

i understand you, but that line only exist with the human identity, and even  dissociation is an identity thing.  im talking about moving beyond all that

[Mal]

@governor @charlie2dogs @Piotr

Actually, I will vouch for this. 

I let go of the human identity (what has it ever done for me anyway? - I was afraid to let it go)

It just vanishes and something replaces it. Something substantial. An energy "body" much much more alive than the human identity..

Dissociation is a myth as far as I can see. It never existed anyway, only as part of the identity.

It seems Charlie is right. You have to take a leap of faith tho, and be done with the whole human thing.

Charlie, I apologise.

[charlie2dogs]

36 minutes ago, Mal said:

@governor @charlie2dogs @Piotr

Actually, I will vouch for this. 

I let go of the human identity (what has it ever done for me anyway? - I was afraid to let it go)

It just vanishes and something replaces it. Something substantial. An energy "body" much much more alive than the human identity..

Dissociation is a myth as far as I can see. It never existed anyway, only as part of the identity.

It seems Charlie is right. You have to take a leap of faith tho, and be done with the whole human thing.

Charlie, I apologise.

thank you

[Mal]

@charlie2dogs  @governor @Piotr

I want to report back some more about last night.  All paths, therapies, philosophies basically anything that the human identity has created to "manage" and transform itslef are all illusions.  In fact, every conversation, every position it takes, every concept it has is utterly pointless and the route cause of all suffering. Reading back some of the nonsense on here is heart breaking, people are just caught in webs of utter pointlessness.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Mal

[Mal]

I dropped my whole identity and it immediately vanished.  It comes back, it appears to play with you time and time again but this time you're able to see it for what it is: pure suffering and delusion

When the emotions vanished my body became extremely "present" like I could feel every nuance. If anybody has done body-scan meditation you will know of "numb spots"where there is no feeling there.  Well, that's not the case. I completely inhabited this body, and along with it I was taken over by this (annoying strangely enough) relentless energy that did not change. 

If anybody has felt the energy in their heart area open up you will remember an intense warmth and "buzz" around the heart.  This is what it's like, except it is flooding the whole body. 

At one point it scared me.  I could not sleep very well because I couldn't drift into my imagination, it wasn't there! I also felt lost like I had lost something - I had been attached to my emotions, despite them being the bane of my life I wanted them because it gave me an identity.  I have worked for years developing my ego. So I felt scared and annoyed by this relentless unchanging buzz.  

Then I calmed down and managed to get some sleep. I dreamed my usual dreams, and after dreams like this I usually awake feeling bad.  The dreams are replaying all my mistakes, but this morning when I awoke I wasn't too interested in them.  For some reason I knew that this time the recurring dream will change because I'm not identified with the character in them.

The buzz is still there, not as intense, but there is an underlying peace and a knowing that I will not get caught up in that character ever again. It's liberating indeed. 

There is a sense of carefreeness, but it's not generated by "not caring" it's just a relief.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Mal

[Mal]

I also understand and accept everything in the past. Because there is no attachment to the identity, I don't feel shame or regret or anything. I just see I was extremely deluded and could not have been any other way for a human identity. 

Your words brought up intense problems in me, but I understand now that the real self and the identity are like oil and water. The identity gets enraged at the truth. It's very funny to see this now, also a bit tragic, but because there is no identification the tragedy is like watching it on TV happening to somebody else. 

I could never go back to the identity.  It's still there. We need it to speak, communicate, we will still make mistakes, but the identity wanted to be perfect, highly developed, reputable... it's really a life of double binds and misery.  Every time we say something as the identity, we are saying it about ourselves.  It's a huge room of mirrors with nothing but thoughts being moved around to make one feel more in control, more wiser, more humble or whatever nonsense the ego comes up with to fuel its imaginary identity.

Even all my "enlightenment" experiences were wrong.  The mind playing tricks on me.  Zen is nonsense.  Absolute truth?  Absolute nonsense actually! Values, opinions, emotions, anything to do with this world is completely false.  This world is the mind.  It's the only place where the identity can exist.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Mal

[governor]

hey, so...this big mind meditation is interesting ...there is a famous nuero scientist who I use products from, and he says basically...if your having symptoms its really hard to (basically) fight and change at the same time----the thing is these patterns ( of dysfunction)  are so effective the easiest way to get a different message thru is to deliver it thru the symptom...am I explain this in an understandable way?

anyway-so in this big mind technique it almost seems usable to me...I had never come across this before...

I think I will start using this...I think this might be helpful...Idk...I "shouldn't" say this but...f*ck it "couldn't" make things any worse than here-they already tell me trauma is coming out on its own (even tho I tried to tell them for years that I didn't feel well)...

but I can kinda tell when i'm seperating now days so I think speaking from dissociation might go kinda like-

who are you , what do you do, what do you dissociate from, why...because it hurts ( ahhhhhhhh)...well then let me speak to hurt--

so on and so forth...

[governor]

28 minutes ago, governor said:

anyway-so in this big mind technique it almost seems usable to me...I had never come across this before...

oh crap--I just realized what this will eventually come around to ... they say my "trigger" seems to be perceived weakness, so at some point I will have to speak to weakness, see what his deal really is instead of reacting to shut him the hell up....

[charlie2dogs]

3 hours ago, governor said:

oh crap--I just realized what this will eventually come around to ... they say my "trigger" seems to be perceived weakness, so at some point I will have to speak to weakness, see what his deal really is instead of reacting to shut him the hell up....

you could think too much, and trying to live in a future that doesnt exist wont help you when you need change now.

[governor]

19 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

you could think too much

 let me think about that statement for a while!  i mean honestly i'm still thinking about something mal said but i won't ask about it because i don't want to be rude...it's exhausting...maybe thinking to much  is what "creates" this loop type feeling...idk...

i do know i like the way the dirt feels under my feet, and the way the sun feels on my face ...maybe that's enough ...maybe i should be outside right now... i hate this trapped feeling...it's exhausting

sorry about the negative comment at the end...i REALLY appreciate your time...thanks...   

[Mal]

1 hour ago, governor said:

 let me think about that statement for a while!  i mean honestly i'm still thinking about something mal said but i won't ask about it because i don't want to be rude...it's exhausting...maybe thinking to much  is what "creates" this loop type feeling...idk...

i do know i like the way the dirt feels under my feet, and the way the sun feels on my face ...maybe that's enough ...maybe i should be outside right now... i hate this trapped feeling...it's exhausting

sorry about the negative comment at the end...i REALLY appreciate your time...thanks...   

It's ok.  You can be rude in this context.

If you want to inquire then I'm happy to help

 

[charlie2dogs]

1 hour ago, governor said:

 let me think about that statement for a while!  i mean honestly i'm still thinking about something mal said but i won't ask about it because i don't want to be rude...it's exhausting...maybe thinking to much  is what "creates" this loop type feeling...idk...

i do know i like the way the dirt feels under my feet, and the way the sun feels on my face ...maybe that's enough ...maybe i should be outside right now... i hate this trapped feeling...it's exhausting

sorry about the negative comment at the end...i REALLY appreciate your time...thanks...   

i didnt really notice any negative comment, yes you would feel much better with dirt under your feet and sun on your and face and experiencing the life force  more deeply that is carrying your body

[governor]

@charlie2dogs

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 2:56 PM, charlie2dogs said:

you said: could a person somehow live inside this unstable ,always changing, "world" of mental illness- and yet not be affected by it?  the answer is yes you can,  

um, hey...if your not busy,could I just please ask one thing...are you saying yes its possible thru self awareness or liberation or something like that? how? i want to be kind and strong and all that like i "should" be, but we're stangers so i am just going to go ahead and ask my whiney little  girl question...how is it possible ? i mean in a real life practical way---is it possible to week after week -year after year go into these adolescent pysch hospitals and not be affected by the crazy extremes---chemical restraints ,self harm, ect..from the children  - tears, anger ,blame, all the 'normal' reactions i watch the parents expressing. one kid goes crazy and they all go crazy-its insane.one little 5 year old attacks other kids like he's freaking demonized (that was a bad joke -i not buying into demon bullshit or something ). therapist are nothing more than a struggle for me--i have drug addict friends who aren't as pushy with thiere drugs as these therapist people are... i realize i am not doing well with life...are you guys suggesting to each other that if you just let things happen somehow your ok with whatever happens? i honestly can't even tell anymore if life makes me sad or just pissed off. the hard thing is none of whats happening is necessary- its all easily changeable, its just that drugging children and writing them off as damaged-not worth the effort is not ok-  its not a made up idea my "self" formed .(ok -it is but you see what i mean, right?) .how ? is it just a pretty made up idea that there is any way to deal with people and not be affected? am i just asking the wrong questions ?

[Mal]

@governor Just admit that you don't know what is happening. The more you try to make sense of it, the more you suffer. 

[governor]

@Mal I never know wtf is happening.  thanks. can I just ask your opinion. I don't know you and you could be as messed up as I am who knows  ,but, this style of meditation is different for me and it has had a very different effect. what does progress look like. my meditations are becoming very different than they used to be. I don't understand.

[governor]

@Mal wait--just in case you answer let me re - ask my real question---my meditations are becoming a little messed up --just different -but nice---are your meditations different from a "watchful " position?

[charlie2dogs]

29 minutes ago, governor said:

@charlie2dogs

um, hey...if your not busy,could I just please ask one thing...are you saying yes its possible thru self awareness or liberation or something like that? how? i want to be kind and strong and all that like i "should" be, but we're stangers so i am just going to go ahead and ask my whiney little  girl question...how is it possible ? i mean in a real life practical way---is it possible to week after week -year after year go into these adolescent pysch hospitals and not be affected by the crazy extremes---chemical restraints ,self harm, ect..from the children  - tears, anger ,blame, all the 'normal' reactions i watch the parents expressing. one kid goes crazy and they all go crazy-its insane.one little 5 year old attacks other kids like he's freaking demonized (that was a bad joke -i not buying into demon bullshit or something ). therapist are nothing more than a struggle for me--i have drug addict friends who aren't as pushy with thiere drugs as these therapist people are... i realize i am not doing well with life...are you guys suggesting to each other that if you just let things happen somehow your ok with whatever happens? i honestly can't even tell anymore if life makes me sad or just pissed off. the hard thing is none of whats happening is necessary- its all easily changeable, its just that drugging children and writing them off as damaged-not worth the effort is not ok-  its not a made up idea my "self" formed .(ok -it is but you see what i mean, right?) .how ? is it just a pretty made up idea that there is any way to deal with people and not be affected? am i just asking the wrong questions ?

i will do my best to answer the whiney little girl question   actually i think i like your response, it says a lot.   first of all let me say i understand and feel your pain,  i have been in those places, the rehabs, the nursing homes, hospitals, psych hospital,  on a regular basis, i have seen what you are talking about and it is horrible that people have to live like they do in those places.  I ended up in icu once because i let too much and too many things get to me and wasnt handling things the way i should have been to do the work and survivie myself.  the very next day after coming out of the hospital, i went to see a lady i was caring for,  and it all started again, i had to lay down at her place for a few minutes and then i told her i had to go home i wasnt feeling well, and i went home and layed down, i knew then i had to change the way i was doing things if i was going to help her and live, she has had a mental condition for over 30 years,  i still look after her while she is now n the psych hospital as much as i can, i spent a lot of time in rehabs, and hospitals, there is no way i would want to live like many of them have to live day to day. 

there are some things in life that you cannot change, cannot do something about, you have to know your limitations and it is possible to do this work without it destroying you.  i have been awake a long time but i allowed myself to become too attached to the pain body of others,  and you cant do that and survive or work with people like you are talking about that way.  you have to pull back, maintain emotional and mental stability to be around and help people in those situations, you have to see the big picture in life, and you have to stay in reality and do it in the moment, fully aware of all of it but doing it for those other people you are involved with and those around them because you care about them and want to try to brighten their day just a little.

the only way out of the pain and misery of life for yourself and others is too understand you are functioning as a human identity, and that most always involves pain, misery, and consequences of some sort.  i have read your post and responded to some, your consciousness is trying to fully awaken from the dream that we are living in, and it is a dream, an illusion, as much as it seems so real, the only part of the whole thing that is real is the life that you carries your body, you consciousness, it came to experience life in a physical way, that it couldnt as consciousness, it became so attached to the physical that it primarily became lost in the identity it created to experience this life in, believing it was the identity, thereby causing it to have some experiences in physical life that can be anything from mild to horrible, until the awakening begins and change begins to happen.  now you are in the process of awakening if you can understand this paragraph and trust it just a little for a period of time and try to take one step away from your physical body and imagine what it feels like to be the source that is giving your body life,  this is what we are after to really discover that and be one with it,  when consciousness is fully awakened, and you are functioning as that, you can function in the moments of life, seeing the reality of things you talked about, and still be able to function in a way that wont cripple your own self, and make you able to even help those around you, knowing you can only do your part to make their life better, their destiny is not in your hands,  and that they to are in this dream that humans created, it is pointless to begin to question why this is happening to them until after you fully awaken then you will know the answer.

you said: is it possible to week after week -year after year go into these adolescent pysch hospitals and not be affected by the crazy extremes---chemical restraints ,self harm, ect..from the children  - tears, anger ,blame, all the 'normal' reactions i watch the parents expressing. one kid goes crazy and they all go crazy-its insane.one little 5 year old attacks other kids like he's freaking demonized (that was a bad joke -i not buying into demon bullshit or something ). therapist are nothing more than a struggle for me--i have drug addict friends who aren't as pushy with thiere drugs as these therapist people are

i realize i am not doing well with life...are you guys suggesting to each other that if you just let things happen somehow your ok with whatever happens? i honestly can't even tell anymore if life makes me sad or just pissed off. the hard thing is none of whats happening is necessary- its all easily changeable

(((what is happening is necessary, because it was created by human beings, there is no escaping that, and yes it is changeable, that is why you do what you choose to do to make it better for any and everyone of those people, but you have to do it from a place of reality, seeing the bigger picture and knowing that it is a dream for you and them but you are doing what is important to you to bring change to their dream and their life as you awaken from this dream. yes it is possible for the awakened being to do this, and be happy that you are able and can do these things for those that cant,  just to be able to put a smile on many of their faces is reward enough.   look deeper within yourself, everything you need to overcome this is there, take up your true state of being as a creator of life, and create the best that you can for yourself and others and be glad that you can,  put a smile on  your face around those other people, be there for them and know that what you do may make a world of difference in the long term outcome of their existence.)))  

 

[governor]

16 minutes ago, charlie2dogs said:

seeing the reality of things you talked about, and still be able to function in a way that wont cripple your own self, and make you able to even help those around you, knowing you can only do your part to make their life better, their destiny is not in your hands,  and that they to are in this dream that humans created, it is pointless to begin to question why this is happening to them until after you fully awaken then you will know the answer.

I could quote the whole paragraph, but this seems to sum it up ---I appreciate it. it's difficult. thanks.

[charlie2dogs]

5 minutes ago, governor said:

I could quote the whole paragraph, but this seems to sum it up ---I appreciate it. it's difficult. thanks.

i knew you could and it was just a reminder,  there are millions like you and i talked about, there is not enough hands, not enough compassion, not enough love, not enough money, to help them all the way we would like, but we can do our part the best we can and that is enough.   being one of those makes you a special being.

[Mal]

1 hour ago, governor said:

@Mal wait--just in case you answer let me re - ask my real question---my meditations are becoming a little messed up --just different -but nice---are your meditations different from a "watchful " position?

I'm sorry, I don't really know how to interpret what you are saying. What do you mean by meditations? Like "sitting"? And are you talking about different techniques? And how are they becoming "messed up"? Unless you provide some context I can't know where you're coming from.