Non-Duality and Vegansim/ Vegetarianism

[Scholar]

@CultivateLove

I understand. The reason why I might be harsh, which is something I have to work on in the future, is because of how disproportionate the suffering you are experiencing is to the suffering the animals are experiencing. The ego is a very tricky thing, and it will try to justify anything. The reason why I am a vegan is because I know the evil I am capable of. I look at it and I choose not to be the person who puts a blind eye. And I am certainly not someone who can claim they thrive on a vegan diet.

You could for example consume insects and mussels if you do need them to sustain yourself.

 

There are a few things about what you say that in particular makes me think you are not honest with yourself, or atleast your ego might be putting blindfolds on. For example, baby male chicks, even in free range farms have to be killed. I don't really think there is a way around that. With fishing, you have the fish themselves suffer and you have a tremendous amount of more animals suffering as a result of being by catch. Our oceans are already overfished and the ecosystems might collapse in the near future.

 

But more importantly, look at how the ego acts to justify itself. It was said that:

"I do, but judging by the way you're framing your 'point', it seems you do not realize that it doesn't matter if you go fully vegan and spend your entire life fighting for animal rights, you are STILL living through each and every possible incarnation that could possible ever exist, including all the brutally killed and tortured animals. There is NOTHING you can do to change it. "

Can you not see that you could justify any action this way? You could justify terrible things done to humans, after all it wouldn't make a difference. I do not subscribe to Leo's philosophy, and I certainly will not subscribe to it if what he is claiming is not my lived direct experience. There is too much oppurtunity for my ego to simply justify it's own behaviour and remain stagnant. This is why I am so against revealing these deeper truths to everyone in these highly conceptualzied philosophies that get tied into ethics aswell.

 

By the way, the fish oil is truly unnecessary because fish cannot synthesize the fats you are taking. They are getting them from algae and planktons, which you can get directly. They are molecularly identical. Also, consider that the way you think animals are treated is not truly the way they are treated. The farms are not the same as the slaughterhouses these animals are sent to. And if you are not a complete moral nihilist, consider how much even one such instance is worth in terms of your own well being. Don't do it from a moralistic point of view, just try looking at it from a place of compassion

 

Here is a video of a danish cow in tremendous suffering, viewer discretion advice. It is disturbing footage.

 

You cannot expect humans to treat animals respectfully while they are killing them all day long, every day. This demands a psychology that cannot be found in a healthy individual. They have to view the animals as objects, otherwise they wouldn't be capable of doing what they do.

 

Here is a good video on what slaughterhouses do to the soul of the slaughterhouse workers:

I have heard so many times people claim "But in our country it's different", and a little research usually reveals it is not the case.

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Scholar

[CultivateLove]

55 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I understand. The reason why I might be harsh, which is something I have to work on in the future, is because of how disproportionate the suffering you are experiencing is to the suffering the animals are experiencing.

I would say in most cases, you are right, but there are exceptions. I am not lying when I say that I wouldn't shy away from living life as one of those chickens or sheep on one of those free-range farms, and it's not just something I've seen on video, I've seen their living conditions with my own eyes.

55 minutes ago, Scholar said:

The ego is a very tricky thing, and it will try to justify anything. The reason why I am a vegan is because I know the evil I am capable of. I look at it and I choose not to be the person who puts a blind eye.

True, and I try to do the same thing, I just can't do it all at once and completely changing my diet when I finally found something stable that works for me for the first time in my life seems unreasonable, especially when I'm in a fork road period of my life.

55 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You could for example consume insects and mussels if you do need them to sustain yourself.

Can you say with certainty that the insects aren't also mistreated and feel suffering? Also, I have a feeling that they won't exactly go well with my gut, at least for quite a while. Not to mention taste/disgust factor. Yes, it's ego-centric, but who where can honestly say they are pure enough that they can cast the first stone?

55 minutes ago, Scholar said:

There are a few things about what you say that in particular makes me think you are not honest with yourself, or atleast your ego might be putting blindfolds on. For example, baby male chicks, even in free range farms have to be killed. I don't really think there is a way around that

I've genuinely pictured it several times, what it is like to be born into a world, and then just killed. To be honest, I don't see much suffering in it, it's kind of just like never being born in the first place, unless it's an animal who's mother/father is sentient enough to grieve the loss of her child, which chickens don't seem to have the emotional capacity to do. My mom had chickens when I was younger, and I was constantly surprised by their brutal behavior towards each other and even their own young. 

55 minutes ago, Scholar said:

With fishing, you have the fish themselves suffer and you have a tremendous amount of more animals suffering as a result of being by catch. Our oceans are already overfished and the ecosystems might collapse in the near future.

I'll look into other sources of omega fatty acids and give them a try, it's the least I can do. There are some seeds and nuts I can think of from the top of my head. I make no promises if it doesn't work as well though, because like I said, I come from a long line of Scandinavian ancestry, which have lived primarily on fish for generations, the effect I feel when I'm on fish fatty pills vs when I'm not is not subtle, it's clearly noticeable. 

I watched the video on the cow, two times actually, and it's not the first one I've seen, but it IS the first one I've seen here in Denmark, so you have opened up my mind to that at least. And the fact that this was reported to the police and nothing was done because "Just because something is not good for the animals, doesn't mean it's also illegal." disgusts and disappoints me greatly. 

I can promise you though, I simply do not touch milk, cheese, cow, beef or veal meat, because I think it's one of the most disgusting and cruel parts of the meat industry as a whole. Cows are much more intelligent and sentient than most people realize, and how the majority of them are being treated is due to pure lack of empathy & compassion & understanding.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by CultivateLove

[Scholar]

7 minutes ago, CultivateLove said:

I would say in most cases, you are right, but there are exceptions. I am not lying when I say that I wouldn't shy away from living life as one of those chickens or sheep on one of those free-range farms, and it's not just something I've seen on video, I've seen their living conditions with my own eyes.

True, and I try to do the same thing, I just can't do it all at once and completely changing my diet when I finally found something stable that works for me for the first time in my life seems unreasonable, especially when I'm in a fork road period of my life.

Can you say with certainty that the insects aren't also mistreated and feel suffering? Also, I have a feeling that they won't exactly go well with my gut, at least for quite a while. Not to mention taste/disgust factor. Yes, it's ego-centric, but who where can honestly say they are pure enough that they can cast the first stone?

I've genuinely pictured it several times, what it is like to be born into a world, and then just killed. To be honest, I don't see much suffering in it, it's kind of just like never being born in the first place, unless it's an animal who's mother/father is sentient enough to grieve the loss of her child, which chickens don't seem to have the emotional capacity to do. My mom had chickens when I was younger, and I was constantly surprised by their brutal behavior towards each other and even their own young. 

I'll look into other sources of omega fatty acids and give them a try, it's the least I can do. There are some seeds and nuts I can think of from the top of my head. I make no promises if it doesn't work as well though, because like I said, I come from a long line of Scandinavian ancestry, which have lived primarily on fish for generations, the effect I feel when I'm on fish fatty pills vs when I'm not is not subtle, it's clearly noticeable. 

I watched the video on the cow, two times actually, and it's not the first one I've seen, but it IS the first one I've seen here in Denmark, so you have opened up my mind to that at least. And the fact that this was reported to the police and nothing was done because "Just because something is not good for the animals, doesn't mean it's also illegal." disgusts and disappoints me greatly. 

I can promise you though, I simply do not touch milk, cheese, cow, beef or veal meat, because I think it's one of the most disgusting and cruel parts of the meat industry as a whole. Cows are much more intelligent and sentient than most people realize. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Naturals-Algae-Omega-Vegetarian/dp/B009KTUGSS

Something like that is what you should look out for. As I said the algae's fats are the very same as the fishes fats, so it should have the same effect.

 

Wish you all the luck, may love prosper.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Myioko To be honest, I wrote this 8 months ago haha so I may not remember exactly what I meant, but, what I am trying to say is that all sentient beings deserve our love and respect. The no hierarchy part is in relation to the absolute, as the Self, we are all one, all the same, neither superior nor less than. 

This is why Enlightenment is the Ego's greatest disappointment, because it clings to notions of Superior / Worse Than (often nowadays worse than with endless Social Media & Comparisons!) but truth shows us from an absolute standpoint, that is impossible!

@neutralempty I agree! I also agree we need more from Vegan nutritionists & doctors etc to help a wider range of people who have different health issues. The consensus for a while in the Vegan community was- Go vegan and ALL your problems will be fixed!!! But, that just isn't true. You can be Vegan and be terribly unhealthy, and if anything a junk food vegan diet is worse than a junk food diet with meat, as you will be deficient in so many ways.