Non-Duality and Vegansim/ Vegetarianism

[LfcCharlie4]

Firstly, this post isn't about health or health benefits of WFPB eating, while I think feeding yourself nutritious foods and drinks is actually a great form of true self-love and constantly eating junk isn't in line with the understanding of junk, that's for another day! 

This post is regarding the consumption of animals and animal products in relation to the Non-Dual understanding of ALL being The Self/Absolute/ God whatever name you want to give the nameless. 

Since there is no hierarchy, and Animals are sentient living beings that are literally YOU, does anyone actually have any good arguments for the consumption of meat/ animal products, the only one I can think of is IF you HAVE to eat meat to reach your nutritional needs. Like if you have some form of Legume allergy, or too many plants gives you digestive issues etc

I am wanting to hear the other side, as I went vegan 5 years ago to clear up my Acne and after seeing animal slaughter videos, now the primary reason is I don't want to contribute to the suffering and death of living beings IF POSSIBLE, I understand any form of survival will involve forms of exploitation and suffering for other beings, my point is shouldn't we try to minimize that where possible. 

The majority of fully Self-Realized beings tend to consume and recommend a Vegetarian/ Vegan diet including- Ramana Maharshi, Francis Lucille, Jean Kelin, Rupert Spira and Sadhguru- and plenty of others. Of course it also one of the precepts of Buddhism as well. 

After a true awakening to the heart, I am not sure why one would want to contribute to this industry if they are conscious of how much suffering and pain it causes living beings. I personally will never eat animal products again, unless I literally HAD to, but 5 years in and I feel healthy still!  

I am also not looking for absolutist answers such as 'Nothing Matters Anyway' while that is absolutely true, if we take that standpoint into our relative lives we can then say that about anything- someone has slaves 'Oh nothing matters' you watch someone getting beaten up and do nothing because 'Nothing Matters' to me is an incomplete understanding of the teaching, and isn't responding to relative situations from Love and Understanding, it's almost Nothing Matters Absolutely, but we still Act as things matter relatively and when awakening to Love doesn't simply respond to every situation with 'Nothing matters' punch line, instead we respond appropriately to each situation we face ourselves in and from our direct understanding of Truth, Love and Happiness. 

Anyways, so if anyone actually has some arguments I would like to hear them and discuss them, as I myself couldn't think of any for someone that doesn't need meat to survive or isn't living on the breadline and surviving solely on what they can afford, even then I feel a lot of calories can be made up from Plant Based food.

This is not meant to be about morality or ethics (this true understanding actually replaces 'ethics and morals' once the separate self is seen through), more coming from the understanding of Truth and Love, what would be your reasons to kill/slaughter an animal for your pleasure and enjoyment? 

Also, there will be examples of Buddha and Ramana eating meat on occasion as acceptance, but I mean long term/ regular part of life.

(I AM NOT SAYING IT IS A REQUIREMENT FOR AWAKENING/ ENLIGHTENMENT, ANYONE CAN AWAKEN, THIS IS MORE ABOUT EMBODYING AND LIVING THE UNDERSTANDING ESPECIALLY LOVE AND REALIZATION OF THE SELF AS ALL) 

I look forward to some discussions

I thought I'd also list some quotes/ videos from great masters around this subject: 

 

Question : What about diet?
Ramana Maharshi : Food affects the mind. For the practice of any kind of yoga, vegetarianism is absolutely necessary since it makes the mind more sattvic [pure and harmonious].

Question : Could one receive spiritual illumination while eating flesh foods?
Ramana Maharshi : Yes, but abandon them gradually and accustom yourself to sattvic foods. However, once you have attained illumination it will make less difference what you eat, as, on a great fire, it is immaterial what fuel is added.

Question : We Europeans are accustomed to a particular diet and a change of diet affects the health and weakens the mind. Is it not necessary to keep up one's physical health?
Ramana Maharshi : Quite necessary. The weaker the body the stronger the mind grows.

Question : In the absence of our usual diet our health suffers and the mind loses strength.
Ramana Maharshi : What do you mean by strength of mind?

Question : The power to eliminate worldly attachment.
Ramana Maharshi : The quality of food influences the mind. The mind feeds on the food consumed.

Question : Really! Then how can Europeans adjust themselves to sattvic food only?
Ramana Maharshi : Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty and good. The food material is to be had both in vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet equally well. But the mind desires such food as it is accustomed to and considers tasty.

Question : Are there restrictions for the realized man with regard to food?
Ramana Maharshi : No. He is steady and not influenced by the food he takes.

Question: Is it not killing life to prepare meat diet?
Ramana Maharshi : Ahimsa [non-violence] stands foremost in the code of discipline for the yogis.

Question : Even plants have life.
Ramana Maharshi : So too the slabs you sit on!

Question : May we gradually get ourselves accustomed to vegetarian food?
Ramana Maharshi : Yes. That is the way.

Jean Klein- was especially influenced by Gandhi, whose teaching of ahimsa/non-violence led him to become a vegetarian when he was 16.

 

 

 

'True ethics and morality come from the recognition of the underlying unity of all beings and things and is an expression of that understanding in relation to all aspects of our life. It is recommended as a guideline before this understanding to have in place a series of ethics and morals.' 

 

This topic goes beyond Veganism/Vegetarianism but that's what brought it up for me, it's more transcending morals and ethics and living the understanding of The Self and Love in all areas of life 

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by LfcCharlie4

[Consilience]

Ive found most meat eaters, even ones who are enlightened, haven’t truly become conscious of the magnitude of collective suffering these animals go through. It’s immense and it’s being fueled by pure ego. We value gluttony over health and compassion.

There are states of being where one’s empathy literally can start tapping into collective forms of consciousness and one can truly feel into the suffering of other beings. How is this possible? Because of our underlying unity. We all experience empathy to some degree this isn’t radical, but the more consciousness work one does (meditation, contemplation, yoga, psychedelics) the more empathy can begin to grow. If this expansion of empathy is centered and energized around ego though, we are literally blocking ourselves from the truth of the matter. 

The truth is, everyone supporting the meat and diary industry wouldn’t want to be in the situation those animals find themselves in and by supporting the industry, it’s one big hypocritical, selfish, and cruel way of being. Is this state of being wrong? No. But there are no good arguments for supporting it other than if it was truly life or death. 

That all being said, karma is a bitch... From what Ive observed, the Universe has a way of enacting justice and balance that transcends our human centric egoic ideas of justice and balance. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Consilience Great points and I thoroughly agree although it does seem some of the most awakened beings are not Vegetarian which is strange to me, maybe it's pure ignorance? Like, veganism is mainly fuelled by younger people, same as 'Conscious' Politics, so maybe there is hope for the future and collectively we are growing. 

And, yes from the Absolute perspective everything is perfect, however, I find it hard to believe anyone could watch how their meat is made and the suffering one goes through and then continue to consume it, knowing that being is literally them, yet is being tortured for their own pleasure and gluttony. 

This is the one are I disagree with my own teachers on and everyone here knows how much I love them! I'm going to bring it up with Ananda when I see her next week, as she said recently she doesn't want to consume meat anymore, and I feel actually understanding what goes on is the first step really, as before I was very ignorant as the majority still are, and it's easy to remain in that ignorance as meat is tasty and convenient isn't it? 

 

[Steve S]

LfcCharlie4 - I did a search online and this conversation came up so I joined. This also fascinates me how some nondual teachers seem dual when it comes down to non human consciousness. I appreciated your view LfcCharlie4.

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Steve S

[CultivateLove]

I'm on the middle road of this. Up until I was 18, like most people, I ate what was given to me, and what I found to be cheap, tasty and convenient, which a lot of the time was some type of dish with meat or animal products. But then psychedelic mushrooms happened, and not long after that, I stumbled upon videos exposing the meat and dairy business, which lead me reading articles to get an ever clearer understanding of how truly fucked up it is, so I went cold turkey on all meat and animal products for about two years, with the exception of fish oil tablets, and the occasional holiday visits at my aunts, which honestly, was such an amazing cook that I simply couldn't resist letting myself go for that day, but then I'd go back to the vegan life. 

Going vegan did help with some things like:

• Clearing up my skin (I think, could have been age-related too, I was at that age) 
• Cleared up some of the brain fog I was experiencing, could focus better at school, grades improved, video game performance improved
• Blood pressure dropped, cardio improved

The negatives, however...

•  A lot of bloating, around the first 6 months of transition I was burping and farting at a championship level, and not all farts were to be trusted, it got better with time but kept being a problem. 
• Less tolerance to cold, which is a problem if you live in Iceland, unless you can afford high-quality clothing for many different types of bad weather, which neither I nor my parents did.
• Physical strength/power decreased.
• Meals took more effort to make, and I'd have to prepare them more often on top of that.
• Veggies and fruits spoil quite fast, so you can't just buy them in bulk, you have to constantly replenish. 
• I'd eat a lot, and feel full & bloated, but I wouldn't feel satiated. I felt like something was missing. Despite experimentation and trying different stuff that people said helped them, I never found the solution. 

After around two years of being vegan, I got kind of fed up with it and also started hearing about ethical farmers who don't abuse their animals, but instead let them live free-range and grass-fed as they were meant to be, so after a quick internet research I found that there was a chicken farm just 30 minutes drive away from where I lived (I had been living in Denmark for a few months at this time), so I went to see it for myself, and I could clearly see that these chickens were genuinely healthy and stress-free, and the area they lived in was actually beautiful.

So that is when I started incorporating eggs into my diet, usually in the mornings. I found this helped a lot with hunger-stability, mood stability, mental stability and strength, which is useful if you work in construction. The only negative I experienced was that some of my farts were deadly for a couple ofnths but then it stopped. But ever since then, have been buying my eggs from that farm, and occasionally a chicken.

Not long after that, I was talking to my dad about my experience and he mentioned a farm back in Iceland that I used to visit as a kid, a sheep farm specifically, owned by relatives of ours, which had the same mindset when it came to farming, which is to not induce unnecessary suffering upon the animals and let them live free-range in nature. So I contacted them and long story short turns out they were happy to send me meat to Denmark every now and then, so since then I've been buying from them regularly once every two months, it's a little more expensive but the quality of the meat is unquestionably better. 

That's where I'm currently at, I use fish-oil for supplementation, eggs for breakfast and sometimes chicken or lamb for lunch/dinner, and the rest is mainly fruits, veggies and nuts, with a little bit of oats and seeds. 

I have yet to hear a reasonable enough argument to get me to consider cutting these things out at this point in my life, because of the variety of health benefits I've experienced, and the fact that most of my problem with the meat industry is the cruel treatment of the animals during their lifespan, not the killing itself, especially after getting the existential fear of death mostly out of my head after listening to Leo for a couple hundred hours and other spiritual teachers talking about how death is not the end, that in fact it's just an illusion, it's nothing to be afraid of, in fact it's a blessing in disguise, or grace. You could argue that before they die, they can be very scared, which is probably true in some cases, but probably not as much as you would think, depending on where you live of course, but I know that here in Denmark there are clear regulations on how animals are slaughtered, and all of the slaughterhouses in Denmark MUST have animal doctors to ensure they are followed. Also, reducing fear/stress in the animal is in the slaughter-houses own best interest because it is known that if that the animal is filled with fear hormones upon it's death, the meat looks different, it's more tense, therefor harder to work with, and doesn't taste as good. 

[VeganAwake]

If nothing matters there is no problem with eating vegetarian/vegan, helping people or making the world a better place.❤

Upon death it's the same result for the psychopath the wall street broker and the humanitarian.... all three will not even know they ever existed. 

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@VeganAwake Absolutely speaking, I agree. 

But, then relatively, I'm afraid the suffering of those animals & beings being slaughtered and living terrible lives has an impact on them.

It is very paradoxical and seems 'dual' on the surface, but surely you see, that in the realization of oneness & love, you would try and minimize the amount of suffering & pain 'your character' causes. For example, ancient sages such as The Buddha, Ramana, Jesus etc weren't exactly unethical were they? Of course, none of us are perfect. 

Yeah, ultimately, nothing matters, but personally, I think this quote is a better summary of that teaching, from St. Augustine- 

'Love and do whatever you want.' 

I remember speaking deeply on the topic of Ethics & Morals in Non-Duality with @Haumea2018, I'm sure he can help explain it. 

But, yes, I agree absolutely speaking it doesn't matter at all, Awareness remains pristine either way. I just don't think that absolute stance means we don't try and improve things relatively speaking- Wars, Animal cruelty, poverty, homelessness- the list goes on. 

@Steve S Yeah, it's kind of crazy to me. Then again, eastern Sages- Ramana, Buddha etc seem more inclined to be vegetarian, it could also be a cultural thing. Here, eating meat is the 'norm', being vegetarian is much more normal in other cultures. 

To me, it makes sense that your love would extend to all living beings & the Earth itself, since you know yourself to be that. 

I do understand the health arguments though, like@CultivateLove has explained, I just disagree with Humane slaughter. That's like saying I humanely killed my neighbour, I fed him great food for a few months, then just poisoned him, so went nice and peacefully. To me, it's an oxymoron. But, again, I understand the health concerns as about 2/3 years in I had some minor issues that needed addressing, as I wasn't following a nuanced vegan diet but believed in the fad diets a lot of Vegan youtubers were promoting back then.

 

[Seraphim]

50 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Upon death it's the same result for the psychopath the wall street broker and the humanitarian.... all three will not even know they ever existed.

What makes you think that?

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, CultivateLove said:

I'm on the middle road of this. Up until I was 18, like most people, I ate what was given to me, and what I found to be cheap, tasty and convenient, which a lot of the time was some type of dish with meat or animal products. But then psychedelic mushrooms happened, and not long after that, I stumbled upon videos exposing the meat and dairy business, which lead me reading articles to get an ever clearer understanding of how truly fucked up it is, so I went cold turkey on all meat and animal products for about two years, with the exception of fish oil tablets, and the occasional holiday visits at my aunts, which honestly, was such an amazing cook that I simply couldn't resist letting myself go for that day, but then I'd go back to the vegan life. 

Going vegan did help with some things like:

• Clearing up my skin (I think, could have been age-related too, I was at that age) 
• Cleared up some of the brain fog I was experiencing, could focus better at school, grades improved, video game performance improved
• Blood pressure dropped, cardio improved

The negatives, however...

•  A lot of bloating, around the first 6 months of transition I was burping and farting at a championship level, and not all farts were to be trusted, it got better with time but kept being a problem. 
• Less tolerance to cold, which is a problem if you live in Iceland, unless you can afford high-quality clothing for many different types of bad weather, which neither I nor my parents did.
• Physical strength/power decreased.
• Meals took more effort to make, and I'd have to prepare them more often on top of that.
• Veggies and fruits spoil quite fast, so you can't just buy them in bulk, you have to constantly replenish. 
• I'd eat a lot, and feel full & bloated, but I wouldn't feel satiated. I felt like something was missing. Despite experimentation and trying different stuff that people said helped them, I never found the solution. 

After around two years of being vegan, I got kind of fed up with it and also started hearing about ethical farmers who don't abuse their animals, but instead let them live free-range and grass-fed as they were meant to be, so after a quick internet research I found that there was a chicken farm just 30 minutes drive away from where I lived (I had been living in Denmark for a few months at this time), so I went to see it for myself, and I could clearly see that these chickens were genuinely healthy and stress-free, and the area they lived in was actually beautiful.

So that is when I started incorporating eggs into my diet, usually in the mornings. I found this helped a lot with hunger-stability, mood stability, mental stability and strength, which is useful if you work in construction. The only negative I experienced was that some of my farts were deadly for a couple ofnths but then it stopped. But ever since then, have been buying my eggs from that farm, and occasionally a chicken.

Not long after that, I was talking to my dad about my experience and he mentioned a farm back in Iceland that I used to visit as a kid, a sheep farm specifically, owned by relatives of ours, which had the same mindset when it came to farming, which is to not induce unnecessary suffering upon the animals and let them live free-range in nature. So I contacted them and long story short turns out they were happy to send me meat to Denmark every now and then, so since then I've been buying from them regularly once every two months, it's a little more expensive but the quality of the meat is unquestionably better. 

That's where I'm currently at, I use fish-oil for supplementation, eggs for breakfast and sometimes chicken or lamb for lunch/dinner, and the rest is mainly fruits, veggies and nuts, with a little bit of oats and seeds. 

I have yet to hear a reasonable enough argument to get me to consider cutting these things out at this point in my life, because of the variety of health benefits I've experienced, and the fact that most of my problem with the meat industry is the cruel treatment of the animals during their lifespan, not the killing itself, especially after getting the existential fear of death mostly out of my head after listening to Leo for a couple hundred hours and other spiritual teachers talking about how death is not the end, that in fact it's just an illusion, it's nothing to be afraid of, in fact it's a blessing in disguise, or grace. You could argue that before they die, they can be very scared, which is probably true in some cases, but probably not as much as you would think, depending on where you live of course, but I know that here in Denmark there are clear regulations on how animals are slaughtered, and all of the slaughterhouses in Denmark MUST have animal doctors to ensure they are followed. Also, reducing fear/stress in the animal is in the slaughter-houses own best interest because it is known that if that the animal is filled with fear hormones upon it's death, the meat looks different, it's more tense, therefor harder to work with, and doesn't taste as good. 

From a non-dual perspective this is a simple equation.

 

Do you rather want to be bloated and have whatever problems you are as a vegan, or do you want to have your throat cut open every day, be pulled from the oceans and sufficate and then being possibly ripped apart while alive, be killed right after you were born as a baby chick day after day.

 

That equation is pretty simple if you are a sane individual. You either suffer a bit, or tremendously. The truth is you probably just do not realize that you are the one being pulled from the oceans, that you are the one whose throat is being cut open and who is suffering day in day out. How many of your own lifes are worth to get rid of the little discomfort you experience when vegan?

[Haumea2018]

4 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

I remember speaking deeply on the topic of Ethics & Morals in Non-Duality with @Haumea2018, I'm sure he can help explain it. 

But, yes, I agree absolutely speaking it doesn't matter at all, Awareness remains pristine either way. I just don't think that absolute stance means we don't try and improve things relatively speaking- Wars, Animal cruelty, poverty, homelessness- the list goes on. 

Another way of looking at this is that we don't determine what matters and then live accordingly -- the movements of the conscious mind are a feint.  We live, and what we find to matter matters and what we find not to matter doesn't matter.  We know this by what we feel.  The conscious mind is the ultimate deceiver in matters of "what matters", we're well advised not to trust it.

[Yog]

From what I understand as of now, and most of this understanding has not yet been verified and tested in my personal experience. 

The spiritual reason for not eating meat is mostly technical and not, or way less ethical/moral.

I've heard couple of yogis and couple of channels elaborating on this. This inspired me to try and see things in that way. Still I need to test this.

Here are some that I remember.

Timestamped:

 

Pardon for the click-bait thumbnail.

 

 

 

[Haumea2018]

12 minutes ago, Yog said:

The spiritual reason for not eating meat is mostly technical and not, or way less ethical/moral.

 

On 3/13/2020 at 11:44 AM, LfcCharlie4 said:

I am wanting to hear the other side, as I went vegan 5 years ago to clear up my Acne and after seeing animal slaughter videos, now the primary reason is I don't want to contribute to the suffering and death of living beings IF POSSIBLE, I understand any form of survival will involve forms of exploitation and suffering for other beings, my point is shouldn't we try to minimize that where possible. 

Yeah, this is sort of an issue of necessity.  There are different physiological types, and finding a diet that works for any given person can very much be an issue of trial and error.  Some people very much agree with meat and not dairy or vegetables, and others vice versa.  Of course, meat production ideally needs to be ethically regulated (and e.g. why The Jews have had kosher/slaughter laws since antiquity.)

Edited November 29, 2020 by Haumea2018

[CultivateLove]

4 hours ago, Scholar said:

Do you rather want to be bloated and have whatever problems you are as a vegan, or do you want to have your throat cut open every day, be pulled from the oceans and sufficate and then being possibly ripped apart while alive, be killed right after you were born as a baby chick day after day.

1. There are more problems I experienced with veganism diet other than bloating, but I'm sure there's only so much room in your strawman.

2. I'm sure this doesn't apply for the entire world, but at least in Iceland and in Denmark, animal's throats are not cut as they are conscious, they are put to sleep. But again, I'm sure your little strawman figure doesn't have room for nuance. 

3. Those fish weren't waiting for their pension and a cozy retirement, you know that right? Most of them would be ripped apart and eaten alive if they hadn't been caught in a net. Plus, all I do is eat 2x omega tablets a day, which helps me with mental clarity, and I come from a long line of scandinavian ancestry so my body is actually more reliant on it than most other people, are you really going to argue that I should sacrifice a piece of my mental clarity, which is my MOST VALUABLE asset in life, for a change that would account for less than a microscopic drop in a gigantic bucket?

5 hours ago, Scholar said:

That equation is pretty simple if you are a sane individual. You either suffer a bit, or tremendously. The truth is you probably just do not realize that you are the one being pulled from the oceans, that you are the one whose throat is being cut open and who is suffering day in day out. How many of your own lifes are worth to get rid of the little discomfort you experience when vegan?

Sane like you? Idk, to me you just seem like a bleeding heart who either intentionally mis-interpreted and/or leaving out 99% of what I said for the sake of egoic reasons like "being right", or you just don't have the mental processing power to take in the different nuances of my argument, in which case your vegan diet may not be working as well as you think it is. 

5 hours ago, Scholar said:

From a non-dual perspective this is a simple equation. / You either suffer a bit, or tremendously. The truth is you probably just do not realize that you are the one being pulled from the oceans, that you are the one whose throat is being cut open and who is suffering day in day out. How many of your own lifes are worth to get rid of the little discomfort you experience when vegan?

I do, but judging by the way you're framing your 'point', it seems you do not realize that it doesn't matter if you go fully vegan and spend your entire life fighting for animal rights, you are STILL living through each and every possible incarnation that could possible ever exist, including all the brutally killed and tortured animals. There is NOTHING you can do to change it. 

If you're just going to keep making straw-man arguments and making personal attacks and use moral highgrounding as a substitute for actual nuanced thinking, then don't expect another reply from me, and don't expect to ever change anyone's mind, you just come across at best a bleeding-heart airhead radical vegan, and at worst intentionally maliscous jerkbag who straw-mans other people's points for the sake of something petty like "being right" and "winning and argument". In either case, change your demeanor or piss off. 

[Scholar]

51 minutes ago, CultivateLove said:

1. There are more problems I experienced with veganism diet other than bloating, but I'm sure there's only so much room in your strawman.

2. I'm sure this doesn't apply for the entire world, but at least in Iceland and in Denmark, animal's throats are not cut as they are conscious, they are put to sleep. But again, I'm sure your little strawman figure doesn't have room for nuance. 

3. Those fish weren't waiting for their pension and a cozy retirement, you know that right? Most of them would be ripped apart and eaten alive if they hadn't been caught in a net. Plus, all I do is eat 2x omega tablets a day, which helps me with mental clarity, and I come from a long line of scandinavian ancestry so my body is actually more reliant on it than most other people, are you really going to argue that I should sacrifice a piece of my mental clarity, which is my MOST VALUABLE asset in life, for a change that would account for less than a microscopic drop in a gigantic bucket?

Sane like you? Idk, to me you just seem like a bleeding heart who either intentionally mis-interpreted and/or leaving out 99% of what I said for the sake of egoic reasons like "being right", or you just don't have the mental processing power to take in the different nuances of my argument, in which case your vegan diet may not be working as well as you think it is. 

I do, but judging by the way you're framing your 'point', it seems you do not realize that it doesn't matter if you go fully vegan and spend your entire life fighting for animal rights, you are STILL living through each and every possible incarnation that could possible ever exist, including all the brutally killed and tortured animals. There is NOTHING you can do to change it. 

If you're just going to keep making straw-man arguments and making personal attacks and use moral highgrounding as a substitute for actual nuanced thinking, then don't expect another reply from me, and don't expect to ever change anyone's mind, you just come across at best a bleeding-heart airhead radical vegan, and at worst intentionally maliscous jerkbag who straw-mans other people's points for the sake of something petty like "being right" and "winning and argument". In either case, change your demeanor or piss off. 

You reaction is telling.

[CultivateLove]

@Scholar Telling how? Can you elaborate? Can you point out something "telling" that I couldn't throw directly back at you? 

Edited November 29, 2020 by CultivateLove

[Scholar]

@CultivateLove Namaste.

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, CultivateLove said:

@Scholar Telling how? Can you elaborate? Can you point out something "telling" that I couldn't throw directly back at you? 

I have attempted this on this forum many times and it has never done much good. I understand your fear and suffering. You feel threatened by what I have said and you have responded accordingly. In your fear you are not ready to open your heart.

I will not argue with you my brother or sister, but I hope you will one day find the love to face your fears.

[CultivateLove]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

have attempted this on this forum many times and it has never done much good.

If it's anything like you attempted in this thread, then it really comes as no surprise. When you straw-man and misinterpret someone's whole point, they're very unlikely to listen to what you have to say or have any respect for you, you know why? Because they feel un-heard, judged and disrespected. What goes around comes around. 

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I understand your fear and suffering. You feel threatened by what I have said and you have responded accordingly. In your fear you are not ready to open your heart.

Those are empty words, you have done nothing to show that you actually understand, in fact you've done the opposite, and most of my response to you was correcting things you obviously misunderstood. And again, you're making personal assumptions about me that you have no place to make, just makes you look over-confident in your own beliefs. 

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I will not argue with you my brother or sister, but I hope you will one day find the love to face your fears.

Then change your behavior, don't give me these cheap words, although I'm sure the intention behind them are pure, you have a lot of embodiment to live up to the moral standards you preach.

[Scholar]

@CultivateLove

There is something to consider here, an opportunity for growth. The reason why I said your reaction was telling was because it was defined by the ego. It did not come from your heart, it came from a place of fear and suffering.

This is relevant becaue it means that the decision you have made that I was questioning was one made from a place of survival. It was made from a place of fear and suffering. This is why when I point to anything that threatens the ego, the ego seeks to defend itself, justify itself. It is blind to my possible ignorance, it's heart is closed. It knows only one thing, survival. This is what has been demonstrated.

 

Love will reveal itself in a way not known to the ego. When the ego is attacked, love will instead look at the one who is attacking with compassion. For example, a loving response would have been:

"My brother, I can see and understand your compassion for animals, I can see it makes you hurt when you realize that others are contributing to their suffering and death. I will think about what you have said, but I cannot asure you that it will change my decision."

 

I could have been more loving, too. And you might have not reacted this way in the first place. But this is what I have to learn, to touch within my brothers and sisters the heart, not the ego.

[CultivateLove]

@Scholar Now we're talking. 

My brother, I can see and understand your compassion for animals, I can see it makes you hurt when you realize that others are contributing to their suffering and death. I will think about what you have said, but I cannot assure you that it will change my decision in the near future, but I will definitely keep it an open possibility in the future when my life circumstances are different.

10 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Love will reveal itself in a way not known to the ego. When the ego is attacked, love will instead look at the one who is attacking with compassion. For example, a loving response would have been:

The thing is, I got one foot in love, and another in ego. Even though I may say hurtful things, deep down I still wish you nothing but growth & prosperity, and I know that. But it frustrates me when I try to make my point as clear as I can, and somebody responds in a way that clearly demonstrates that they for whatever reason feel they can judge me harshly without first even understanding where I'm actually coming from. Seek first to understand, then to be understood. It's not easy, but it's true.

14 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is relevant becaue it means that the decision you have made that I was questioning was one made from a place of survival. It was made from a place of fear and suffering. This is why when I point to anything that threatens the ego, the ego seeks to defend itself, justify itself. It is blind to my possible ignorance, it's heart is closed. It knows only one thing, survival. This is what has been demonstrated.

Yeah, my heart closed at an early age to protect itself and stayed that way most of my life, it's a work in progress, but there's a lot of work to be done, I wasn't exactly dealt the best hand at life, but I'm doing the best I can with it.