How would you explain levels of Consciousness to Stage blue/orange?

[RendHeaven]

Exactly what the title says.

Most members of modern society are between spiral dynamics stage blue and green.

Stage green+ people have some vague sense of consciousness (usually an image instead of the real thing... but nonetheless the word rings intuitive bells within them) so there's really no need to explain anything there.

Well, really there is no need to explain anything to anyone, but occasionally there are times when I am talking to blue/orange relatives and friends and I see the perfect opportunity to mention Consciousness to make a point - about politics, psychology, or whatever - and yet I choke on that word because I realize "this means nothing to them!"

After all, what is a "more conscious person" or a "less conscious person" to someone in blue/orange mentality? Does that even exist to them?

For example, I may want to say that, "Donald Trump is an unconscious person."

Of course this statement is relative and from my perspective, only partially true and even sometimes false, (or both, or the distinction is meaningless!) and yet if I were to say this to a stage green+ person they would "get it." There is no further need to explicate what I mean.

With stage blue/orange, I may say that statement and get blank stares - and something in me tells me that further explicating this word "consciousness" is not the way to go since then I begin to ground one meaning within another meaning, which ultimately misses the mark entirely: that consciousness is the groundless ground.

So maybe it's just better to conjure metaphors, although orange tends to hate that (blue might like it though )

Currently I just bite my tongue and swerve this topic altogether around certain people, but I'd like to change that if I could.

[Malken]

Why not just bring it down to earth and call it states of mind. Mentality. Your mentality dictates your actions and so it should matter a lot.

[RendHeaven]

@Malken Hmm, but what about the example of "Donald Trump is an unconscious person"

Is what's being described - unconsciousness - a mentality? Is that a state?

Yes, No, Maybe so... (It really depends on the one judging)

Let's grant for now that "Unconsciousness" really is a "mentality" or a "state."

Let's imagine that conversation:

 

Me: Donald Trump is an unconscious person.

Blue/Orange: What do you mean by "unconscious person?"

Me: Unconsciousness is a state of mind.

Blue/Orange: So you're saying that Donald Trump has a state of mind of unconsciousness?

Me: Yes!

Blue/Orange: Maybe at night when he's asleep! But he's awake during the day and fully conscious, just like the rest of us.

Me: That's not what I meant! Not literally whether or not he is awake or sleeping - but rather _____________

 

Try to fill in the blank  

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by RendHeaven

[fridjonk]

@RendHeaven There is no convincing those people. They will have to find their own way. It's best to get this urge of wanting to tell everybody that you know more and they are wrong out of the way. If you're a yellow or above in this world, you're like a green person in the 1800's. Society is spiritually retarded and that's okay. We're not as advanced of a species as our technology would indicate. So don't expect people to just understand all this consciousness talk. It's best to just nudge people in the right direction.  

[RendHeaven]

8 hours ago, fridjonk said:

1) There is no convincing those people [...] It's best to get this urge of wanting to tell everybody that you know more and they are wrong out of the way.

2) It's best to just nudge people in the right direction.  

1) That's not quite my intention - intellectual flexing isn't on my mind when approaching discourse. It's possible to hold an idea in your mind and to want to communicate it from a place of sharing and mutual learning.

Notice that It's not a matter of "convincing."

If someone completely disagrees with me but still manages to grasp in some form where I am coming from, that's a success to me. 

2) Do you think you can give an example of what "nudging" looks like?

[Roy]

A word that would better suit the context you're worried about is "awareness".

It's similar but doesn't match the bill of consciousness for the work we're involved in.

[remember]

@RendHeaven first of all if you use consciousness without explaining it, it’s just a label a tag that can be used inflationary - like every thing, if you take it out of context. if you choke on the consciousness part it probably won’t help rising it. blue likes labels like good and bad, positive negative but you will have to give an explanation aside from the label which proves the label, not some bs you made up but rather something following their rationality, which could be a religious one if they are religious. in orange you always try to show them what’s in for them. pretty easy in theory 

Edited March 12, 2020 by remember

[RendHeaven]

@remember Yes, thank you that was sort of what I was trying to get at.

I've already acknowledged the limitations of the use of the word "consciousness." What that means could be literally anything!

But going back to my original example: "Donald Trump is an unconscious person," I think it's somewhat true that I wouldn't have to explain that to a hippie in California at her yoga class. She would just say, "yes, of course!"

13 minutes ago, remember said:

pretty easy in theory 

Your suggestion is spot on, I think - that you have to sort of "bring it down to their level" in a sense, with the goal being a mere "aha, I get it!"

This is really hard in practice though, because you will necessarily have to compromise your original meaning.

For example, to a stage blue person you might say, "Donald Trump is a bad person," and follow that with "because he is greedy."

And all of those things are a cousin of "unconsciousness," yet of course the two are not the same thing.

Merely calling Trump "bad" and "greedy" misses how he is exactly like you and I, with perhaps just a little less... what, awareness? (from certain perspectives).

@Roy Though the problem with namedropping "awareness" is that you then have to explain THAT in the same way that you would have to explain "consciousness," so in a sense you are sent back to square 1.

 

I know it might sound like I'm making this unnecessarily complicated, but I'm a communicator at heart and this is something that I've been wrestling with for a while so apologizes for all the winding responses  

[remember]

3 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Merely calling Trump "bad" and "greedy" misses how he is exactly like you and I, with perhaps just a little less... what, awareness? (from certain perspectives).

well you could use „by his own will“ or „by his agenda“ or „purposefully“, „intentionally“. its difficult because my english is probably much simpler as yours, which is not because my spiral colour is blue or orange but because it’s a second language and i don’t have as many complex words in my vocabulary.

[Roy]

@RendHeaven I think in our culture awareness is a more understood word than consciousness, at least in the sense of consciousness past the idea just being "awake (literally) and not asleep", which is the definition the layman gives it. Of course it all depends on who you're talking to. Sometimes you'll run into people who spend zero time learning about these things past layman terms so you'll have to go through the labor of explaining everything. It sucks but there is a first time for everyone to learn right!

To help you I think the most relevant and stringent way to describe "Awareness/Consciousness" to a Blue or Orange person is;

"Awareness/Consciousness is like a scale, where as you move up the scale you become more empathetic, considerate, and strategic about your actions/attitudes towards other people, animals, and the world in general."

An easy example to explain is Environment. Someone who isn't very aware or conscious (meaning they don't understand, can't empathize, or can't imagine not being themselves and being that thing instead) will behave in ways that are completely destructive and disregarding of their environment.

So another way of thinking about Awareness/Consciousness is that as you get more of it you become more understanding of the consequences of certain ways of behaving. You start realizing that literally everything is connected in some way because it's all apart of the same reality. If you behave in a way that is very low in awareness like a racist for example; you see that it is destructive to make such a firm separation between one group of people and another, because we are apart of the same planet and ecosystem and need each other. To be more conscious/aware is to acknowledge possible consequences and orient yourself in a way that minimizes them.

There is a huge trap in this though - You have to be extremely careful when explaining this to people lower on the spiral than though and let them come to their own realization that as one moves up the Spiral you gain more and more consciousness/awareness. If the point is made too explicitly they will get very defensive and won't learn anything.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Roy

[remember]

in that sense maybe it’s sometimes better if you just stick with the language you are usually using but without talking down to them. mhhh i don’t know - you also have to consider hyrarchical discrepancies in blue and in orange, if you talk to some kind of blue priest or orange superior they will probably not listen as long as you don’t manage to bring them to the same level you are at which is some kind of eye height. if you explain it to an audience it is probably easier than talking with family members or your boss.

Edited March 12, 2020 by remember

[RendHeaven]

37 minutes ago, Roy said:

If the point is made too explicitly they will get very defensive and won't learn anything.

12 minutes ago, remember said:

if you talk to some kind of blue priest or or orange superior they will probably not listen

Yes great points all around, the problem is doubly tricky when you consider that it's not just a matter of explicating the right words, because a lot of the times the right words will enrage them!

(I mean, imagine making that environment metaphor to someone at stage orange who doesn't give a shit about the environment, and instead of learning something about awareness/consciousness, it becomes an ethical debate about how humans ought to treat the planet)

It's definitely a matter of tiptoe-ing around their egos, I mean we could have a whole different thread on that dynamic alone. 

Thanks for the responses though, it gives me a lot to contemplate

Edited March 12, 2020 by RendHeaven

[fridjonk]

@RendHeaven Those people are at their worldview, there is no getting to them and there is no need. Since you'd just be telling it to yourself. You are all alone and there is no need for them to "grasp" some concept that's just mentally constructed. There is only direct experience, all of this intellectualizing does not do much. 

But if you REALLY want to have a conversation with, let's say orange about consciousness. A good way would be to question their worldview, so you get them thinking on their own. Examples are like "how quantum physics disproved materialism many many years ago", "how can you trust your own perspective", "how can you trust scientists". 

Edited March 13, 2020 by fridjonk

[RendHeaven]

38 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

But if you REALLY want to have a conversation with, let's say orange about consciousness. A good way would be to question their worldview, so you get them thinking on their own. Examples are like "how quantum physics disproved materialism many many years ago", "how can you trust your own perspective", "how can you trust scientists". 

I really like this idea, I am thinking of stating a Youtube channel where I do just that...

[universe]

To expand on this you can also talk with them about how religion and the catholic church influenced us 100 years ago and try to get them to see how science fills the same role in todays world. Show them the similarities between these two.