The Good Side of Trump, Duterte, and Stage Red

[jimwell]

 

I have seen Leo and people in this forum often disapprove of Trump and Stage Red. I can see why. But I think you Stage Green and a few Stage Blue people have overlooked the good side. Trump and Duterte shake the status quo, not Biden. Bernie and Stage Green can, but very slowly (can take hundreds or thousands of years on a  global scale). If the status quo is unacceptable, it's worth shaking it up and taking risks.

Duterte proclaimed the Pope, bishops, priests as useless and hypocritical.  He told the Filipinos (over 80 % Catholic Christians) bishops and priests prey on altar boys if they are homosexuals and prey on nuns if they are heterosexuals.  That sounds very funny but is also true (at least in many cases). But it's very offensive to very Stage Blue Catholic Christian Filipinos. But the inital shock brought good changes. Now I see more Filipinos questioning their Catholic faith and some even renouncing it, having an existential crisis as a result.

What Duterte did is equivalent to Biden saying Fortune 500 corporations and Wall Street people are extremely selfish and seek profit at all cost. They have unfairly acquired much wealth that there's a need for regulations and wealth redistribution. It is also equivalent to Shinzo Abe (Japan's prime minister) saying that Naruhito (the Japanese emperor) has no real authority but the authority given to him by the Japanese people. And he needs to stop receiving "emperor" taxes. This is completely unthinkable. Shinzo Abe would rather commit seppuku than tell the truth. But that's exactly what Duterte did and continues to do and what Trump is capable of.

Humans significantly and rapidly change only in a serious crisis. That's what the coronavirus  pandemic has proven. Suddenly, normal people have OCD. They wash their hands and wear masks more than usual. People work at home and go out only when needed. Humans, buildings, and places become automatically cleaner. Landlords lower rent to minimize business profit loss. Senseless sports events and gatherings are cancelled. School terms are shortened. Airlines cancel flights to "highly infected" cities and offer refunds. Governments inject emergency funds to support small businesses and employees. The cooperation as a way to cope is amazing.

Now, imagine what World War 3 can do. It will be a great tragedy but I am very open to the possibility that something very beautiful and miraculous can emerge. Trump and Duterte are the type of people who start great wars.

That's a few examples of how Stage Red forces Stage Blue and Orange to evolve to Stage Green on a global scale (quickly, in a few years or decades). 

 

[Preety_India]

Stage Red is like a thin line or rope. So it's a tighrope walk. If you go wrong you fall. 

Only healthy stage Red is reliable. 

Just like a knife, if handled carefully it can help cut cake but if you make a mistake, you could end up cutting your fingers instead. 

Trump may be good for bringing a sudden shift in perspective but if he himself doesn't think in a clear direction during an important call, his decision can bring havoc in a second. 

Therefore the lines are blurry. 

Stage red is only good if it incorporates some aspects of green and yellow and remains on steady ground. 

 

[jimwell]

@Futarino Trump and Duterte are similar in a sense, they are Stage Red.

Edited March 11, 2020 by jimwell

[Apparition of Jack]

@jimwell Are you prepared to die for society to evolve? Because that’s what you’re asking of other people.

[jimwell]

@Apparition of Jack

That's an absurd projection. So you would rather die than evolve? Go ahead. I'd rather evolve.

[Emerald]

18 minutes ago, jimwell said:

@Apparition of Jack

That's an absurd projection. So you would rather die than evolve? Go ahead. I'd rather evolve.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that there is a lot of risk in what you're proposing. It's high risk... with no guarantee of high reward.

So, he's conceding that it may bring evolution. But are you willing to die (or have misfortune come upon you) due to a stage Red presidency, in order for that evolution to come about. Are you willing to be the one on the chopping block? Are you willing to be the sacrificial lamb?

And he's saying that you may unconsciously asking that of others by suggesting allowing a destructive situation to unfold for the sake of evolution. 

He's asking you... are you willing to actually bear the brunt of the turmoil and upheaval that comes with Stage Red leadership for the possibility of evolution in the future or just philosophizing about it and ignoring that some may actually deal with some horror because of it. Are you willing to go through that horror to possibly evolve?

 

 

[Annoynymous]

@jimwell I, like you, also believe that the world works in a counter intuitive way. What seems outrageous can surprisingly turn into something beautiful.

But the truth is, we don't know what things are going to turn into. Think about holocaust. More than 6 million people were brutally killed because hitler thought they were "evil". After that, the jewish people got their own home in the middle east. So in the end, the horrific event turned out to be good for jewish people. If  allied forces  knew that would happen at the time of second world war, then would they just decide to let it happen and suspend war with Hitler? If they had done that, it would be a foolish thing to do. Then hitler would go on and kill almost all the jewish people. Then there would be no state for them.

Can you see where i am trying to point at? I have heard from somewhere that even a little change in the reality can bring huge change in it in the future. Everything works in a mysterious way. We don't know what we don't know. So it is better to just stay in the present and do what feels right rather than blindly speculating.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Annoynymous

[jimwell]

On 3/12/2020 at 11:09 AM, Emerald said:

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that there is a lot of risk in what you're proposing. It's high risk... with no guarantee of high reward.

So, he's conceding that it may bring evolution. But are you willing to die (or have misfortune come upon you) due to a stage Red presidency, in order for that evolution to come about. Are you willing to be the one on the chopping block? Are you willing to be the sacrificial lamb?

And he's saying that you may unconsciously asking that of others by suggesting allowing a destructive situation to unfold for the sake of evolution. 

He's asking you... are you willing to actually bear the brunt of the turmoil and upheaval that comes with Stage Red leadership for the possibility of evolution in the future or just philosophizing about it and ignoring that some may actually deal with some horror because of it. Are you willing to go through that horror to possibly evolve?

 

 

@Serotoninluv

It's amazing you two have the same question. But to ask me this question is ridiculous. Why?

Because I don't need a crisis to change for the better. I change when I see I need to, for love of truth and beauty.

You should direct the question to the majority instead. And maybe, also direct that question to yourselves.

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by jimwell

[jimwell]

On 3/12/2020 at 1:43 AM, Preety_India said:

Stage Red is like a thin line or rope. So it's a tighrope walk. If you go wrong you fall. 

Only healthy stage Red is reliable. 

Just like a knife, if handled carefully it can help cut cake but if you make a mistake, you could end up cutting your fingers instead. 

Trump may be good for bringing a sudden shift in perspective but if he himself doesn't think in a clear direction during an important call, his decision can bring havoc in a second. 

Therefore the lines are blurry. 

Stage red is only good if it incorporates some aspects of green and yellow and remains on steady ground. 

 

No. That's wrong. Stage Red is also good. Every stage is good. It depends on how healthy and controlled it is. The point of Spiral Dynamics is not to move to Turquoise and drop the previous stages. The point is to move to Turquoise while embracing and maintaining healthy characteristics of the lower stages. That's what makes you a more balanced, complete human. Every stage has an important function.

 

[Apparition of Jack]

8 minutes ago, jimwell said:

@Serotoninluv

It's amazing you two have the same question. But to ask me this question is ridicuuous. Why?

Because I don't need a crisis to change for the better. I change when see I need to for love of truth and beauty.

You should direct the question to the majority instead. And maybe, also direct that question to yourselves.

 

Listen man, it's good that you don't need external circumstances to get you to self-actualise, but you're still very much dependent on those external circumstances regardless.

You say something like WW3 might bring beneficial change in the long run, which is a possibility, but in the short-run it would involve a lot of chaos and suffering, even for yourself. You might tell yourself "I'm in a safe area, I won't be affected" or "I'm self-actualising, I don't want to get involved", but things like wars and diseases are bigger than any one single man or woman. Odds are way more likely that you will be affected, and affected for the much worse. This is what I'm saying - are you prepared to suffer through the hardships that the things will bring to the earth? Because the things you're talking about will force you to suffer those hardships.

[jimwell]

@Emerald @Serotoninluv@Apparition of Jack

Look at the global situation. The developed countries (though they are not actually developed) have extreme wealth inequality, corruption, homelessness, health care (people die of illnesses because they can't afford it), 8-5 low salary jobs, depression, mass murder and self-murder (suicide) suffering or problems. The developing countries (though every country is actually developing), also have those problems (but to a more serious level) except mass murder, but with additional mass starvation and extra judicial murder. What else can be worse than this?

Yes, Bernie can shake up the status quo from "above" but it will be certainly very slow, especially on a global scale. AS mentioned in one of my posts, it can take hundreds or thousands of years because societal evolution depends on the "consciousness" of the majority.  

Are you willing you to be that little girl whose mother recently died because she was forcefully sent home by the hospital because she couldn't afford the hospital bills anymore? 

Are you willing to be that wage slave who is living paycheck to paycheck but seriously thinking of murdering herself because she has anxiety and depression but can't receive therapy because of she is just one paycheck away from homelessness?

Think, be sensitive, and embody their suffering. There are millions of these little girls and wage slaves around the world. Are you saying we should wait for hundreds of years for a significant global change to happen and relieve them of their suffering? 

The global situation is already and has been for many decades very ugly and unacceptable. It is a very slow, painful death. The world needs to take a gamble. It's sensible to try Trump and Stage Red because immediate change is needed.

Edited March 13, 2020 by jimwell
@Apparition of Jack If world war 3 affects me so be it. Even if I die in that war, be it.

[universe]

What makes you think that disrupting the status quo leads to something good? Its a gamble. If you like to gamble thats fine but Id take slow and steady anytime over a gamble which could also end worse.

Also the status quo as we have it now, is not unnacceptable, actually it has never been this good.

See this chart: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/child-deaths-igme-data?tab=chart 

 

Your willingness-logic doesnt make sense to me.

Its like Im telling you, go eat shit so that no one will be raped anymore on this planet!

You would also stop and think, wait a minute how is the shit Im eating correlated with that? And how do I know its not causing even more harm?

When there is a disruption like now with the virus I would lean more on the side that crime rates will go up instead of down. Dark energy uses chaos to hide.

 

With Trump I had two things I thought could be nice

1. Trump will help the economy by thinking more like a businessmen and not playing the same games as the other recent presidents. I was wrong, he is still playing the same game and even in a foolish way.

2. With how Trump acts it will be obvious for everyone that something needs to change. Like the shadows of stage blue/orange will be shown in such a dark way that people will get sick of all this and resent it. I was wrong, the majority of people seem to still be unable to see this or just dont care.

So being fooled twice Im not having high hopes for what you proclaim. But we can never know, maybe you are right and it will bring something good.

[jimwell]

@universe

You don't understand my posts enough. And you don't know what you are talking about. The only sensible things you wrote are your last 2 sentences.

[Forestluv]

@jimwell I agree with you that there is wealth inequality and suffering. We just have different ideas on how to solve that. 

To me, it seems like you want rapid change are proposing to intentionally create a crisis that will increase suffering with the hope that it might spark changes that lead to a decrease in suffering.

That is not my orientation. I would not intentionally give Alzheimers patients brain cancer. This would cause a deeper crisis and increase their suffering. Yes, there is a small chance the brain cancer would spark changes in his brain that might help him. Yet that is not how I would treat the condition. 

Imo, consent is important for an ethical framework. Bernie is being upfront and honest about how he wants to re-structure the government toward working people. If society elects Bernie, they have given him consent to re-structure the government. . . However, if a politician plans to start WWIII to spark changes in the world, yet does not tell society this, the people are not electing him with informed consent. Imo, this would be unethical. 

[jimwell]

@Futarino

I'm sorry for my late reply. What is "consciousness?" It is about your mindset or worldview (how you see yourself, things, and society), your values (things which are important to you), and your behavior.  

Please read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

and this https://www.actualized.org/insights/spiral-dynamics-essence

 

Why is DUterte Stage Red?

Because he violates rules and conventions to satisfy himself. Murdering criminals and other politicians for his benefit or satisfaction is Stage Red. It is bad but is also good. It depends on the situation. Watch Leo's Spiral Dynamics videos.

Don't hide your posts. It's good to honestly ask questions.  

[jimwell]

On 3/13/2020 at 8:29 PM, Serotoninluv said:

@jimwell I agree with you that there is wealth inequality and suffering. We just have different ideas on how to solve that. 

To me, it seems like you want rapid change are proposing to intentionally create a crisis that will increase suffering with the hope that it might spark changes that lead to a decrease in suffering.

That is not my orientation. I would not intentionally give Alzheimers patients brain cancer. This would cause a deeper crisis and increase their suffering. Yes, there is a small chance the brain cancer would spark changes in his brain that might help him. Yet that is not how I would treat the condition. 

Imo, consent is important for an ethical framework. Bernie is being upfront and honest about how he wants to re-structure the government toward working people. If society elects Bernie, they have given him consent to re-structure the government. . . However, if a politician plans to start WWIII to spark changes in the world, yet does not tell society this, the people are not electing him with informed consent. Imo, this would be unethical. 

I understand your perspective. That is a traditional "righteous" approach. And that's ok. I am just revealing something unconventional, overlooked, and ignored. Considering the advancement humans have made in science and technology, we now have the resources (buildings, trains, factories, computers, internet, food production, globalization, etc) to cope up with a great tragedy and rapidly evolve ourselves. 
 

You have forgotten or underestimated the stupidity and extreme selfishness of humans. And that's the exact reason why they reject truth and not evolve. What forces them to change and evolve is to present a threat to their survival. Because it will be in their best self-interest to do so, otherwise they die. We clearly see this rapid, significant change and evolution now with the coronavirus pandemic. It took only a few months what would have been decades long change and evolution.

The video below clearly demonstrates one of the miraculous changes. The province and everybody living there now receives financial subsidy and support from the South Korean government. It's too good to be true. It can exist only as a dream for Bernie, Yang, and you.

This is the power of Stage Red. It might be "unethical". But it is certainly very effective and respectable. In the short and long run, it can produce greater love and beauty.

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by jimwell
added a video clip

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, jimwell said:

Considering the advancement humans have made in science and technology, we now have the resources (buildings, trains, factories, computers, internet, food production, globalization, etc) to cope up with a great tragedy and rapidly evolve.

If a situation is within “coping” capacity of previous evolution (technology, trains, internet, food production), I would not consider that an extreme crisis. I consider an extreme crisis as one that stretches beyond a previous coping strategy and promotes evolution of new strategies, perspectives, communication etc. 

I’m not saying no “good” can come out of tragedies. We could cherry pick some “good” that came out of the Holocaust. I am questioning the ethics of intentionally creating a tragedy and massive suffering, without consent, in the hope that something good might come out of it. For example, my town is stage centered at Orange. I could create a tragic crisis by hiring terrorists to kidnap all the children in my town, kill one child per hour and televise it to the people in my town. This would certainly cause a massive crisis, death and suffering. Yet maybe some good could come out of it. Maybe it would bring the town together and help them to evolve to green. Should we give it a try? . . . Well as long as it’s not me or my kids that get kidnapped and killed. . . Would you be willing to volunteer yourself to be kidnapped, tortured and killed for this experiment?. . .  It’s easy to philosophize about it on the internet. It’s a lot harder to volunteer to be the one tortured and killed. If I’m not willing to do it, I can’t volunteer someone else (without them knowing it) to be the one to be tortured and killed. That would make me a torturer and killer. 

[jimwell]

@Serotoninluv

I have thrown pearls in front of pigs.

Don't use only Green ways in every situation, especially when dealing with extremely selfish demons who are below Green. Embrace and utilize Red. It is very powerful and has a place in societal evolution.

Edited March 17, 2020 by jimwell

[remember]

@jimwell the problem with the shakeup theory is that it doesn‘t really do it anymore - the reason is sth called habituation. people get far too fast comfy with accepting sth as the norm rather than the exception. a shakeup is supposed to be a short term thing something like an impuls which is also noticeable as an impulse. if its going on its status quo not a shakeup - also consider that in the picture you are drawing.

[Forestluv]

On 3/17/2020 at 3:43 AM, jimwell said:

Embrace and utilize Red. It is very powerful and has a place in societal evolution.

That may be true on a micro scale, yet a macro scale is different level. It would be like trying to treat a benign pancreatic tumor with chemotherapy.