The issue of abuse on the forum

[Martin123]

@Lento yeah I catch your drift, it’s the same for me. I love boundaries they’re the best  and well done, that’s a quite high level skill on the healing and development path, especially if you carry patterns of the patriarchal conditioning so many males are brought up in.

[Lento]

17 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@Lento especially if you carry patterns of the patriarchal conditioning so many males are brought up in.

Sure. I'm guilty of this.

Although, I do think it may have a certain value to some people on their paths. Sometimes, this patriarchal imposing attitude comes out just as what someone needs. It rarely happens to be the case for me at the moment, but I understand that sometimes for some people it can satisfy a certain psychological need on the receiving end for whatever reasons.

I think relativity is one of the finest and most beautiful features of reality. What works for me might not work for you, and vice-versa. I believe we all mean good in the end, regardless of the way we communicate our ideas.

Thank you for bringing up this discussion and for your insights and concerns. And of course, thank you for your help on my thread. You were very precise in your assessment.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Lento

[Inliytened1]

@Martin123 i went and expanded on my earlier post on one of the threads in question.  I think i was too brief and didn't take enough time to expand on what was being said so it may have been misleading to readers.   Just wanted to let you know.  We are often jumping around to different threads and sometimes i tend to rush posts or not provide enough context.  Something i will work on as a mod.  Just wanted to let you know!

[Martin123]

@Inliytened1 In all honesty what you’re talking about actually isn’t the problem. The issue is that the way you talk to me (and others) is as if you were lecturing me and I was a disobedient little child that displeased mom and dad. It’s a codependent stinky dynamic that I want nothing to do with, so thanks but no thanks.

[Inliytened1]

Just now, Martin123 said:

@Inliytened1 In all honesty what you’re talking about actually isn’t the problem. The issue is that the way you talk to me (and others) is as if you were lecturing me and I was a disobedient little child that displeased mom and dad. It’s a codependent stinky dynamic that I want nothing to do with, so thanks but no thanks.

Hmm..maybe we should review those threads because i don't feel that has ever been the case.   I haven't even had that many exchanges with you.  But we can leave it at that.

[Martin123]

44 minutes ago, Lento said:

Although, I do think it may have a certain value to some people on their paths. Sometimes, this patriarchal imposing attitude comes out just as what someone needs. It rarely happens to be the case for me at the moment, but I understand that sometimes for some people it can satisfy a certain psychological need on the receiving end for whatever reasons.

Well in all honesty, patriarchal conditioning is what exists with the purpose of stomping and suppressing all emotional needs, the need patriarchal conditioning satisfies is the need for dominance, which is just another word for abuse. There really is no merit to it on a spiritual journey. It's only thre to be dissolved.
 

 

46 minutes ago, Lento said:

Thank you for bringing up this discussion and for your insights and concerns. And of course, thank you for your help on my thread. You were very precise in your assessment.

Thank you! I love feeling appreciated it. It's one of my core wounds and needs (I come from a background of feeling unloved).
I also cry  when I listen to Beyonce, I just feel like that's relevant haha xD.

[IJB063]

13 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

This is a journey for a reason. We can't handle everything at once. Telling people what they should do is ignoring the journey people take to get there. Good intentions does not mean your impact will match. 

Even if it's the best therapeutic solution at the end of it all, those who are not ready can't do it and it winds up useless. It's so easy to forget this when you're at the top and they aren't. 

That's why I said, if I thought they could handle it

I agree 100%, that we can't handle everything at once.

But the end goal is acceptance, 5 stages of grief

1. Denial

2. Anger

3. Bargaining

4. Depression

5. Acceptance

I don't believe saying that eventually you're going to have to accept what happened to you and move on is useless.

Friedrich Nietzsche said (one of my favorite quotes) that

“The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”

Meaning the mark of a man is how much truth he can handle without giving up on the journey

And I am no where near the top 

[Artaemis]

The warmth is missing. 

'Compassion and understanding' alone doesn't quite describe the energy missing. Lackluster description.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Artaemis

[Artaemis]

@Martin123 I believe you're aware of this too. So you walk in truth I think. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Artaemis

[Lento]

6 hours ago, Martin123 said:

Well in all honesty, patriarchal conditioning is what exists with the purpose of stomping and suppressing all emotional needs.

Perhaps there's another angle to look at it. Essentially, I think the whole patriarchy thing is derived from fatherhood, which is overly masculine love; A father loves and cares for his children, and because he knows better than them, he does his best to help them grow and protect them in the ways he thinks are best. I'm quite sure that the majority of fathers don't practice patriarchy as a form of dominance for suppressing their children's emotions and needs, although that might sometimes be the case; in this case, I would consider that an abuse of fatherhood. Most fathers just practice and preach what they have found useful to them more in a rigid, traditional way. As well, I would create a distinction between intention and impact; I could have the best intentions in the world, yet create a bad impact, and vice-versa. These two are very distinct things and the distinction is really important.

That being said; I wouldn't consider the feminine approach superior to the masculine, even though I personally currently have an inclination towards the former. I would consider integrating both approaches to be the superior approach. That may be a little bit off-topic, but it's important that we understand why that dynamic exists and how it completes the feminine. I believe fathers don't wish to suppress emotions and destroy them. It's probably just their way of thinking, just more logical and rational rather than intuitive and emotional, that's all.

6 hours ago, Martin123 said:

the need patriarchal conditioning satisfies is the need for dominance, which is just another word for abuse.

Notice that you said that the patriarchal conditioning satisfies the need for dominance, which is something I assume you would support, but then you equate that emotional need with abuse. I think there's a distinction here; dominance does not necessarily mean abuse. It can mean something very beautiful like care and protection. In this light, there isn't a need to reject anything said in an insensitive way; I either resonate with it so I take it, or I don't so I ignore it.

6 hours ago, Martin123 said:

There really is no merit to it on a spiritual journey. It's only thre to be dissolved.

I get your concern that this insensitivity may hurt sometimes, and I agree with you. That's why I would never recommend such people to get involved in therapy. I would be grateful if they could learn to talk more gently and sensitively, or remain silent. That's a lesson that they should learn if they want to become integrated. Likewise, people like me should learn to embrace that way of "preaching" more in order to become integrated as well.

6 hours ago, Martin123 said:

Thank you! I love feeling appreciated it. It's one of my core wounds and needs (I come from a background of feeling unloved).

I also cry when I listen to Beyonce, I just feel like that's relevant haha xD.

???

Edited March 12, 2020 by Lento
"former" instead of "latter"

[Martin123]

4 minutes ago, Lento said:

Perhaps there's another angle to look at it. Essentially, I think the whole patriarchy thing is derived from fatherhood, which is overly masculine love; A father loves and cares for his children, and because he knows better than them, he does his best to help them grow and protect them in the ways he thinks are best. I'm quite sure that the majority of fathers don't practice patriarchy as a form of dominance for suppressing their children's emotions and needs, although that might sometimes be the case; in this case, I would consider that an abuse of fatherhood. Most fathers just practice and preach what they have found useful to them more in a rigid, traditional way. As well, I would create a distinction between intention and impact; I could have the best intentions in the world, yet create a bad impact, and vice-versa. These two are very distinct things and the distinction is really important.

That being said; I wouldn't consider the feminine approach superior to the masculine, even though I personally currently have an inclination towards the latter. I would consider integrating both approaches to be the superior approach. That may be a little bit off-topic, but it's important that we understand why that dynamic exists and how it completes the feminine. I believe fathers don't wish to suppress emotions and destroy them. It's probably just their way of thinking, just more logical and rational rather than intuitive and emotional, that's all.

Notice that you said that the patriarchal conditioning satisfies the need for dominance, which is something I assume you would support, but then you equate that emotional need with abuse. I think there's a distinction here; dominance does not necessarily mean abuse. It can mean care and protection. In this light, there isn't a need to reject anything said in an insensitive way; I either resonate with it so I take it, or I don't so I ignore it.

I get your concern that this insensitivity may hurt sometimes, and I agree with you. That's why I would never recommend such people to get involved in therapy. I would be grateful if they could learn to talk more gently and sensitively, or remain silent. That's a lesson that they should learn if they want to become integrated. Likewise, people like me should learn to embrace that way of "preaching" more in order to become integrated as well.

???

No, Patriarchal conditioning does not equate with fatherhood. Patriarchal conditioning equates with the state of consciousness on this planet. Its a movement away from the divine of the feminine, and its further suppression.
Also patriarchal conditioning does not mean 'masculine energy', masculine energy is what allows inspiration to be translated into action, what allows boundaries to exist so the feminine energy within all can be safely expressed. The divine masculine is very much important and necessary, but the divine masculine will only arise after patriarchal conditioning is untangled. This has nothing to do with gender, but with energetics. Masculine energy is your left hemisphere, and feminine energy is the right hemisphere. It just so happens that in most individuals, the right hemisphere (feminine) is dominated by the left hemisphere (masculine), that is why imbalanced masculine energy needs to be untangled, take a break, exhaust itself and allow the divine feminine to rise to its full power, and then return as a true protector and balanced partner to the divine feminine. But the divine feminine has to lead the way, and then merge with the masculine that will be fully tempered and informed by the sensitive and intuitive guidance.
That is also why abusive cycles have to end before healing can take place. Because with the end of abusive cycle, imbalanced masculine energy loses its grip over the feminine, and the feminine then over time facilitates healing, and in the end balances out and tempers the masculine into an expression of unity and equality, with both hemispheres connected and balanced.

[Lento]

@Martin123

I'm not disagreeing with you. Everything you said is great, and I second it. All I was trying to say is that there's work to be done on both sides (and I use the terms masculine and feminine rather loosely). There needs to be acceptance in order for transcendence to occur. In my perception, untangling the patriarchal conditioning does not mean demonising it, but rather understanding it. If there's anything I've learned throughout my journey; it's that what you resist persists.

[Martin123]

@Lento I guess the issue I had with what you said was that 'dominance' can be something like care and protection. No, unless it was a typo and you meant to say 'curse and projection', that would be truthful. I think I should also own a personal trigger in this conversation because there is a fury within me that arises when people justify abusive and hurtful tendencies and situations. And while that fury is something I have yet to integrate, the truth of the matter is that no matter how small, any amount of abuse will never be justifiable,  and a Teal Swan quote isn't designed for such things. In this case, it would be a resistance to the eradication of abuse from one's life, not to the abuse itself. Its more of a resistance of having very high standards of how you will allow other people to treat you, at the cost of facing the possibility of being completely alone.
Dominance only exists to return to the light. It also exists to keep ego-structures from integrating, but that's not the direction consciousness is taking.

[Commodent]

People have always been acting irresponsibly towards each other on this forum. Couple spiritual bypassing with low emotional intelligence, and that's what you get.

That said, I'd advice against taking your trauma ideology too seriously. Like all belief systems, it has its limitations.

[Lento]

7 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@Lento I guess the issue I had with what you said was that 'dominance' can be something like care and protection. No.

Would you let your child throw itself off a cliff?

I'm not saying that the one who's being preached to has a mind and understanding of a child. I'm saying that in the preacher's perception, that is likely the case. Otherwise, they would have probably kept their insights for themselves. Now, if it's assumed that there's ego behind their preaching, then that's something else. For me, I prefer not making this assumption except when I can't find any other interpretations.

17 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@Lento I think I should also own a personal trigger in this conversation because there is a fury within me that arises when people justify abusive and hurtful tendencies and situations. And while that fury is something I have yet to integrate, the truth of the matter is that no matter how small, any amount of abuse will never be justifiable.

Sure, I'm not trying to justify abuse. Just trying to understand it to be able to transcend it for myself and others. And since you've mentioned that there may be a personal trigger, I would say that it's better to try to reconcile this issue once that trigger is gone, because, obviously, it's difficult to be objective, unbiased and, more importantly, clear in perception.

21 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@Lento 
Dominance only exists to return to the light. It also exists to keep ego-structures from integrating, but that's not the direction consciousness is taking.

Notice! Wouldn't you say that this right here is a form of dominance? A thought trying to dominate other thoughts? For what, really? How sneaky!

Still, I would refrain from going further into this discussion until the fury is, at least, over.

[Martin123]

@Lento Oh I understand. You equate dominance with being assertive.
No Assertiveness is the necessity of loving expression to actualize beauty and love into form. Imagine illuminated lightbeings being afraid to express themselves because they 'don't wanna dominate', dominance is a case that says 'I will dominate you as a way of avoiding your potential of hurting me, because I am too afraid of a potential attack, I will strike first'.
Assertiveness says 'Well this is how it is, this is my truth, take it or leave it, doesn't bother me one bit, I just wish to express myself with kindness, enthusiasm, love and compassion'.
Father saving a child from a cliff is an act of wisdom, love and kindness, not a dominance of any kind. That is the positive action of the masculine energy, where the love for a child has perhaps tempered immature expressions of masculinity.
You can still be assertive and not dominate anyone at all.

Also, 

6 minutes ago, Lento said:

I would say that it's better to try to reconcile this issue once that trigger is gone, because, obviously, it's difficult to be objective, unbiased and, more importantly, clear in perception.

That's a nice way of saying 'you're wrong' while refusing to be direct about it. I can't say that I'd choose to be treated that way, and so unless you're willing to be more direct, let's end this discussion. I am still in a very vulnerable and raw place and unless you are willing to be emotionally supportive at this point in time, discussions like this can't really be good for me.

[Lento]

1 hour ago, Martin123 said:

@Lento I can't say that I'd choose to be treated that way.

I apologise that this was the impact. Please know that it was never my intention, and please forgive me. I'm really sorry.

[Artaemis]

@Martin123 Just some criticism. You need to work on recognizing your divinity a little more. It's impacting your interactions with others and the energy you are emitting. If you keep following on the path of love (your strength) this will all sort itself.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Artaemis

[Martin123]

@Artaemis oh my god why is everyone being my life coach stahp or be blocked 

[Martin123]

Unsolicited advice is:

Heres all the judgements about you and here’s what I want you to change about yourself so I can feel differently about the ideas I have about you.

Its SO Ruuuude god yall making me so uncomfortable all I really want is to heal in peace and express myself, I love affecting others through the channeled healing energy coursing through my nervous system but this just so brutally impolite ???? I’m having a meltdown