The issue of abuse on the forum

[Harikrishnan]

I think there is a lot of projection, comparison, my perspective is only right perspective going on lately, people are getting identified with the issues and projecting on to others for saying a different perspective. 

Love to @Martin123 for bringing this up. If iam right I read that thread which you was a part of and even if i dont agree on your take on leo but leo's fans club was little harsh on you. (If that was not thread i am sorry))

[Martin123]

1 minute ago, Harikrishnan said:

I think there is a lot of projection, comparison, my perspective is only right perspective going on lately, people are getting identified with the issues and projecting on to others for saying a different perspective. 

Love to @Martin123 for bringing this up. If iam right I read that thread which you was a part of and even if i dont agree on your take on leo but leo's fans club was little harsh on you. (If that was not thread i am sorry))

Thank you!
Leo's fan club was fine for the most part, nothing abusive really, just some advice I didn't ask for (honestly a thing people do all the time, it's a giggly issue), but then there was an issue of rather serious backlash, and while I do have the emotional and psychological resources to deal with that effectively, such behaviour isn't something that should be tolerable in a spiritual community in today's day and age.

[outlandish]

This doesn't really belong in the M,C,E,S forum so I've moved it to our most general catch-all, "Self-Actualization"

[Martin123]

Just now, outlandish said:

This doesn't really belong in the M,C,E,S forum so I've moved it to our most general catch-all, "Self-Actualization"

Well the abuse did happen M,C,E,S (What a great acronym) and in the Health section I believe (also a conversation went down in serious emotional problems), but I understand your decision, thanks!

[Red-White-Light]

@Martin123 Forum needs to fix it. It should know I have no attachments.

[Forestluv]

I've read through a couple of the questionable threads and did see a few instances of what I consider name calling and trolling. 

As a general reminder: it is fine to disagree with others on the forum, yet please do so in a respectful manner. Personalizing attacks and inflammatory posts to incite emotional responses are a form of trolling, against forum guidelines and may receive warnings. 

Common excuses include: "I was just joking" , "I was just telling him/her the truth", "S/he is too sensitive", "S/he started it". . . Please consider both your intention and the impact on the other user as well as the forum community. Behave in a mature, respectful manner to your fellow forum members.

As well, there may be areas in which you have had deep realizations that may now seem obvious to you - yet someone else on the forum may not have had this realization and doesn't "get it". Please don't be judgmental and condescending in these situations. Saying something like "You don't want to see the truth. You are trapped in your self-centered theory and close-minded". From the perspective of someone who has had a deep realization in this area saying this might seem factual and benign. Yet from another perspective, it can be a personalized confrontation and patronizing. If there are areas that you have had a deep realization, please try to imagine how you were before you had that realization and treat others respectfully. Sometimes when we are not on the same frequency with someone it's best to amicably let it go, rather than starting a kerfuffle about how low their conscious level is. 

[Martin123]

Thanks so much for your attentiveness @Serotoninluv ! Much appreciated. 

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I've read through a couple of the questionable threads and did see a few instances of what I consider name calling and trolling. 

As a general reminder: it is fine to disagree with others on the forum, yet please do so in a respectful manner. Personalizing attacks and inflammatory posts to incite emotional responses are a form of trolling, against forum guidelines and may receive warnings. 

Common excuses include: "I was just joking" , "I was just telling him/her the truth", "S/he is too sensitive", "S/he started it". . . Please consider both your intention and the impact on the other user as well as the forum community. Behave in a mature, respectful manner to your fellow forum members.

As well, there may be areas in which you have had deep realizations that may now seem obvious to you - yet someone else on the forum may not have had this realization and doesn't "get it". Please don't be judgmental and condescending in these situations. Saying something like "You don't want to see the truth. You are trapped in your self-centered theory and close-minded". From the perspective of someone who has had a deep realization in this area saying this might seem factual and benign. Yet from another perspective, it can be a personalized confrontation and patronizing. If there are areas that you have had a deep realization, please try to imagine how you were before you had that realization and treat others respectfully. Sometimes when we are not on the same frequency with someone it's best to amicably let it go, rather than starting a kerfuffle about how low their conscious level is. 

Would vegan cartoons that have content that might be seen as provocative constitute what we define as inflammatory? I am genuinely curious because I do feel like they are not quite appropriate for this forum but at the same time I feel like they are good tools.

[Forestluv]

Just now, Scholar said:

Would vegan cartoons that have content that might be seen as provocative constitute what we define as inflammatory? I am genuinely curious because I do feel like they are not quite appropriate for this forum but at the same time I feel like they are good tools.

What counts as "inflammatory" is relative. At times, there are obvious cases. Yet there are also grey areas and nuances that are context dependent. So it can be hard to say "yes" or "no".

In regard to the cartoons that are trying to make a point, one way to reduce the personalization may be to post it without directing it at a specific @user. Also, I found it helpful to be mindful if I myself and being genuine in trying to help the person and the impact it is having on them. If there is an area I feel like I've had insight and that I am more "developed" than another user, I introspect whether I'm genuinely trying to reveal this realization to the other user. On the other side, I try to gauge whether the other person even has any interest in realizing the insight I think is so insightful. Quite often, the answer is "no" and I find myself trying to "help" someone when they don't think they need any "help" and don't want any "help". As well, I try to notice if the other person is getting defensive and retaliatory within a "me vs you" dynamic. It can be tempting to enter into debates. I can't tell you how many times I started off engaging with a genuine intention of trying to reveal an insight and 20min. later find myself immersed in an argument debate trying to show them how right I am. The ego can be super sneaky.

Regarding the vegan cartoons, I think they are ok in the right context. In that thread, I think it was more about the volume of them. There were so many so fast that I think it may have over-intensified the point. One thing I've observed is that people (including myself) have a "stretch zone" that is uncomfortable, yet that is were the growth is. Yet if it gets pushed to far, it goes into a "panic zone" in which defenses such as anger and retaliation arise to protect the self. 

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, IJB063 said:

@Martin123 They don't need to circle around me 

They just need to step outside their victim mentality and embrace life on lifes terms

This is a journey for a reason. We can't handle everything at once. Telling people what they should do is ignoring the journey people take to get there. Good intentions does not mean your impact will match. 

Even if it's the best therapeutic solution at the end of it all, those who are not ready can't do it and it winds up useless. It's so easy to forget this when you're at the top and they aren't. 

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

What counts as "inflammatory" is relative. At times, there are obvious cases. Yet there are also grey areas and nuances that are context dependent. So it can be hard to say "yes" or "no".

In regard to the cartoons that are trying to make a point, one way to reduce the personalization may be to post it without directing it at a specific @user. Also, I found it helpful to be mindful if I myself and being genuine in trying to help the person and the impact it is having on them. If there is an area I feel like I've had insight and that I am more "developed" than another user, I introspect whether I'm genuinely trying to reveal this realization to the other user. On the other side, I try to gauge whether the other person even has any interest in realizing the insight I think is so insightful. Quite often, the answer is "no" and I find myself trying to "help" someone when they don't think they need any "help" and don't want any "help". As well, I try to notice if the other person is getting defensive and retaliatory within a "me vs you" dynamic. It can be tempting to enter into debates. I can't tell you how many times I started off engaging with a genuine intention of trying to reveal an insight and 20min. later find myself immersed in an argument debate trying to show them how right I am. The ego can be super sneaky.

Regarding the vegan cartoons, I think they are ok in the right context. In that thread, I think it was more about the volume of them. There were so many so fast that I think it may have over-intensified the point. One thing I've observed is that people (including myself) have a "stretch zone" that is uncomfortable, yet that is were the growth is. Yet if it gets pushed to far, it goes into a "panic zone" in which defenses such as anger and retaliation arise to protect the self. 

Thank you, that was very helpful! I might have been overly excited with the cartoons, the not addressing users specifically and falling into ego as the argument ensues are also good insights.

What I find most tricky is to show my opinion on Spiral Dynamics without getting personal or generalizing a group. I can be very upfront about how I talk to people even though I have no intention to provoke them, but it also seems like I do not care too much about whether or not I do create a negative reaction in them.

In real life I would not do such a thing, the presence of a real person makes it much easier to feel empathy and be more thoughtful as to how one would explain something. In this environment I value authenticity more than effectivity, maybe because it is one of the rare instances where I can let my ego play out and observe it.

 

This is in many ways selfish.

[Forestluv]

20 minutes ago, Scholar said:

In real life I would not do such a thing, the presence of a real person makes it much easier to feel empathy and be more thoughtful as to how one would explain something.

I've noticed the same in myself. Engaging online removes a lot of the energetics, body language, facial expressions, feelings, tone of voice, empathy etc. I've found myself engaging online as if I am debating a bot - losing touch of the human essence. I've caught myself interacting online in ways that I would not interact with people IRL. 

I heard of studies that show GenZ/Millennials are much more open-minded and aware than GenX/Boomers. Yet one exception is with empathy. GenZ/Millennials score lower on empathy - perhaps so much time online de-humanizes interactions and doesn't promote the development of empathy. The only social interactions before the internet were face-to-face and telephone calls.  

[lmfao]

@Martin123 In terms of what he has to say for himself, Leo has explained his change in approach as being necessarily less tolerant of "devils". To be fair, I don't think I have much criticism of the responses Leo gives to people. He's probably saying what's true. Commenting on people in regards to the domain of approach and demeanour isn't my strongest suit. 

I notice in my own interactions and conversations with people, so much misunderstanding, talking past one another, etc. It feels like a chaotic mess. And I feel like I can see the same chaotic mess in this forum. So I'm projecting, but perhaps not in a negative sense, using a definition for the word different from the definition in wikipedia. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by lmfao

[Derek White]

@Martin123 People here sometimes get very defensive. The best thing to do is to keep your calm and if you feel they're being stubborn then just leave the thread. I've had people call me names for literally no reason. I've had people misread my post and respond with a knee-jerk, long post which seemed like a rant. It changed my behavior, in the sense that I started taking the forum less seriously and being less thoughtful in my posts. It was a mistake on my part, I tried to be like the people who disrespected me. 

I skimmed through the threads you were mentioned and it does seem like there was some light trolling but in all honesty you were also not being very friendly in your manner. I don't think Leo is being rude but I do think he should explain why someone is wrong or at least provide a way for them to realize where they went wrong.

I find the best way to communicate is to be direct. Stop with the sarcastic comments and inflammatory words. Post like you're sending a semi-formal email to someone.

[Martin123]

6 hours ago, Derek White said:

@Martin123 People here sometimes get very defensive. The best thing to do is to keep your calm and if you feel they're being stubborn then just leave the thread. I've had people call me names for literally no reason. I've had people misread my post and respond with a knee-jerk, long post which seemed like a rant. It changed my behavior, in the sense that I started taking the forum less seriously and being less thoughtful in my posts. It was a mistake on my part, I tried to be like the people who disrespected me. 

I skimmed through the threads you were mentioned and it does seem like there was some light trolling but in all honesty you were also not being very friendly in your manner. I don't think Leo is being rude but I do think he should explain why someone is wrong or at least provide a way for them to realize where they went wrong.

I find the best way to communicate is to be direct. Stop with the sarcastic comments and inflammatory words. Post like you're sending a semi-formal email to someone.

Thanks for the response, I’m never really sarcastic with any mean intention, I usually respond with positivity and compliments towards any abusers as those are the ones who need it the most, I understand you can perceive it as sarcasm, but it’s not the case. 
My criticism of Leo is just honest authentic feedback that anyone on the forum is free to have their own opinion about. I think what you’re getting at is that I’m just not codependent in my responses. Which is a wonderful thing that took years of development and healing to get through.

betgr164128 Has been banned as I was informed by moderators. Apparently he was banned before. Go figure.@Keyhole abuse is always a problem that requires an action, for either the victims to remove themselves, or for someone to step in and stop the abuser from behaving in damaging ways.

 

[Dan502]

@Serotoninluv I like your stance here.

[Martin123]

Just now, Keyhole said:

@Martin123 The two people that you mentioned you played your part in as well.  Neither of those conversations were one sided.  Things like that very rarely are and the moment people assume that they are they take responsibility away from looking at how they are contributing to the dynamic.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with me, and while I am aware of the deeper energetic dynamics that are at play, and am not in any way deluded that I’d play a role in someone’s maltreatment of me, I honour your disagreement.

[Martin123]

@Keyhole ? great observations. I am overjoyed by your sharing. Thanks for letting me know all the things you think of me as well as the surely well thought - out diagnosis of my lack of identity, quite lovely, at least now I have some great suggestions for what to think of myself and replace the lacking identity. Maybe you’re my salvation who knows.

 

wishing you well and sending you love.

[Martin123]

@Keyhole I have a question.

When exactly did you become my life coach ? ? I don’t remember hiring you and almost feel kinda bad because you’re not getting paid for all the lovely work you’re doing here. Therefor, maybe best if you stopped, thanks ! Haha

[Lento]

13 hours ago, Martin123 said:

just some advice I didn't ask for (honestly a thing people do all the time, it's a giggly issue)

It's happened to me before a couple of times. The way I handle it is by setting my boundaries strongly and not compromise or tolerate anything less than them being completely fulfilled. That way, I either get the discussion I want and I know is helpful for me, or they break my boundaries so I ignore them and never reply to them again. I think it has to do with my capacity to let go. Years earlier, it had been very difficult for me.