Rape and India

[Preety_India]

Just now, fi1ghtclub said:

@Preety_India

Do you think just enforcing a strict law would work?

Especially when the law enforcment agencies are rotten and corrupt to their core.

The rich and the powerful always get away with the law.

It needs a much more nuanced solution.

Have you read about the Unnao case.

It's a perfect case study about what's wrong with the system.

Corruption needs to be weeded out. 

The solution is not to simply let the government and law enforcement sit on their ass. They have a duty for a reason. 

Protecting a citizen, man woman or child is their duty. 

How did we reduce dowry? 

How did we reduce female infanticide? 

By enforcing law..... 

[remember]

@Preety_India ok - yes the gang rape i must admit that, it’s impossible to selfdefence with sth like that. 

i also didn’t suggest it as an overall solution - it’s systemic i get that. so it was maybe a suggestion for women in the west alone? because even law enforcement does not keep these things from happening to women - ridiculing what many women in the west see as their last resort is also not the right way. be careful as a woman not to play into the perpetrator victim mentality. i‘m a woman, too. so it’s not a suggestion from a guy. it also was in a sense a joke, so no reason to get so agitated about it, but i guess i sense now how severe the problem really is. there is almost always a point where you will not get any further by demanding law enforcement, there are other methods to be found to really change sth in the structure of the victim perpetrator cycle.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Arcangelo]

Oh man! I am all about self defense it empowers me. The mindset you acquire is priceless.

 

[Preety_India]

@remember I'm not ridiculing it. I'm saying it's not viable for a lot of women. I thought you were a guy, sorry about that. 

I am not at all playing into a victim perpetrator mentality.

Its a severe problem with huge suffering and consequences for the women. There is no victim playing here. 

These are real victims who suffer life long injuries. 

The matter is not limited to groping on the street. 

The victim that made headlines in India in 2012 died a week after the rape. Even the doctors couldn't save her. 

And do you think that I won't suffer consequences for defending myself. 

The last time I heard the rapist said that if a woman defended herself she will be murdered. 

This problem is much more complex than victim perpetrator, joining karate or using electro shockers. 

I haven't used my pepper spray in my bag for years now. 

You may ask why? 

I'll tell you why. 

Because if I use it, the next day the guy will track me down and murder me. 

So be careful about your simplistic suggestions. 

 

 

[remember]

11 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

Oh man! I am all about self defense it empowers me. The mindset you acquire is priceless.

 

i just try to find a way to communicate that maybe it’s time to find a way for women to enforce better situation by themselves - we can’t wait for others to do that, can we? i‘m not living in the us - we have far less assaults from weapons in europe - but some situations stay the same. it’s about how we think, how we communicate how we make others aware of the problem - it’s about going through these collectively. change is only made if we change it.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[remember]

13 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@remember I'm not ridiculing it. I'm saying it's not viable for a lot of women. I thought you were a guy, sorry about that. 

I am not at all playing into a victim perpetrator mentality.

Its a severe problem with huge suffering and consequences for the women. There is no victim playing here. 

These are real victims who suffer life long injuries. 

The matter is not limited to groping on the street. 

The victim that made headlines in India in 2012 died a week after the rape. Even the doctors couldn't save her. 

And do you think that I won't suffer consequences for defending myself. 

The last time I heard the rapist said that if a woman defended herself she will be murdered. 

This problem is much more complex than victim perpetrator, joining karate or using electro shockers. 

I haven't used my pepper spray in my bag for years now. 

You may ask why? 

I'll tell you why. 

Because if I use it, the next day the guy will track me down and murder me. 

So be careful about your simplistic suggestions. 

 

 

ok, that’s indeed pretty rough. i‘m sorry to hear that!

sorry to put you into that victim perpetrator cycle - i thought there was a psychological codependency, where is actual threat.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Preety_India]

@remember  that's only possible if the law allows that. 

The Indian law does not allow carrying guns or weapons 

And I can't use physical force because I am physically weak. Not all women are physically tough. 

You don't have that many assaults in your country so you don't have to worry too much about defending yourself everyday. 

I don't see a lot of western women doing karate on the streets. No they call 911.

Please do not compare your situation to what happens in India. 

Here it's brutal. 

You're not going to defend yourself 24/7 every day of the week against a new attacker or assaulter each time. 

Like I said before it's not viable. The woman will land up in the hospital fighting every day and lose her life. 

 

[remember]

@Preety_India yes i hear you. but law enforcement will not change the situation alone. it’s the first step? something has to happen in these mens mind, and i think the media play a bigger roll in that than the law.

[Preety_India]

@remember I agree

 

[Gnosis]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

The last time I heard the rapist said that if a woman defended herself she will be murdered. 

This problem is much more complex than victim perpetrator, joining karate or using electro shockers.

Precisely because from the perspective of the unconscious male mind, not being able to have sex is equated with physical death.

To my knowledge, no one has said this, so I'll say it.

That's what is fundamental here at the deepest level.

I'm only fully conscious of this because I've done a lot of developmental work. Even most relatively conscious males have no idea that this is the case.

Unfortunately, this isn't necessarily helpful simply to know. Collective development is slow, and essentially that's what the proper resolution of this issue hinges on.

Technology is evolving faster than society, and society in turn is evolving faster than human physiology and biology.

Whereas I usually give allegories and poems, this is one of the few times I'll explicitly say something on this forum that is intended to be reserved for a future book.

[Preety_India]

@Gnosis  I have no idea what you are talking about. 

 

 

 

[remember]

16 minutes ago, Gnosis said:

Precisely because from the perspective of the unconscious male mind, not being able to have sex is equated with physical death.

To my knowledge, no one has said this, so I'll say it.

That's what is fundamental here at the deepest level.

I'm only fully conscious of this because I've done a lot of developmental work. Even most relatively conscious males have no idea that this is the case.

Unfortunately, this isn't necessarily helpful simply to know. Collective development is slow, and essentially that's what the proper resolution of this issue hinges on.

Technology is evolving faster than society, and society in turn is evolving faster than human physiology and biology.

Whereas I usually give allegories and poems, this is one of the few times I'll explicitly say something on this forum that is intended to be reserved for a future book.

ok but how can this feeling of being killed lead to the actual killing? - it’s really poor will control to act on any emotion that’s coming up. where does this thoughtcycle „she killed my ego so i kill her“ come from. and then actually acting on that? that’s what i really understand as a karmic trap far from the road to personal happiness. but i guess that’s where karma is also pointing at, guys who are entrapped in that kind of action never learned how to think differently. i also think the educational system has to take these problems on at young ages. but that would also mean education for really every child. and a plan on how to create a better communication and equality between boys and girls. i also know that these problems are sometimes hate reactions agains women of better education.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Gnosis]

@Preety_India That's understandable. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I just gave all of my insights straight, and very conceivably the reader would most likely have no clue what they've just read.

@remember I'll be totally frank with you, I have no idea. I've never killed another human being.

I've simply become conscious that somewhere in the deep layers of the male mind, there exists this precise deeply biologically programmed equivalence.

It's also related to suicide, for obvious reasons. My best guess would be that a Spiral Dynamics stage Red male certainly would act out in violence or even murder when this is at play in full force.

[Preety_India]

@Gnosis

I'm sorry I can't respond to you if I didn't understand what you said. 

 

[remember]

@Preety_India he is talking about ego death vs. then killing that what killed the ego. the mechanism of being rejected is a feeling for a man like being killed - it’s because being cut off from the source of love feels like being cut off from life.

of course it’s a red coaping mechanism.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Gnosis]

@Preety_India To put it in different words, at a deep biological level in males, there's an unconscious equivalence of one's physical death with not being able to have sex.

In females, the desire to have offspring is similar. Although, I don't know if it's as bad as being unconsciously equivalent to one's physical death.

[Gnosis]

What we're talking about here is not ideas or beliefs accessible to the conscious mind.

It's that which is dictating your actions, and which you have not become conscious of yet.

[Preety_India]

@remember oh God.

@Gnosis 

 

Rape is a sociopathic crime of control and abuse where the criminal enjoys the pain and suffering of the victim and the fear and terror he causes give him a sense of power and a high. 

Those people defending the psychology of a rapist should read a bit of criminal psychology. 

Criminals don't belong in society, they belong in prison and off the streets. This is such simple logic. 

A rapist is not looking for love. He is looking for power and abuse. Smh. Where do these people get their ideas from? 

And also a man not getting sex from a woman does not justify rape under any circumstances. It only means that she has her freedom and free will and choice. 

That's the definition of rape. It is forceful and against her consent. 

Sex and rape are two different things. I can't believe I'm having to explain this. 

Sex is between a man and a woman and is consensual and the woman is happy receiving the sexual intimacy and affection of a man. 

Whereas rape is a crime, an assault, a trauma,a brutality. It is against her consent and causes her physical and mental damage. 

Some guys really need to stop justifying the act(crime) of rape by using metaphors and analogies and ego death and consciousness and all these fancy words. 

Sociopaths run around and proliferate and grow in society when unchecked just like weeds in the garden. 

If left that way they get emboldened by the lack of action and punishment and they carry out more crimes and thus encourage other sociopaths to follow suit. 

That's how crime works. That's why we need law and order and punishment. 

Crime is always minimized  in places of strict law enforcement. Go figure 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Preety_India

[Parththakkar12]

Nobody is entitled to a safe world from universal perspective! The reality is that this is a jungle, where we're all vulnerable to each other. The rules of the jungle are : Everyones out for their own. Now I may care about your safety individually, but this doesn't change the rules of the jungle! You have 2 options : either wait for the world to make it better, or initiate it yourself.

[remember]

@Preety_India no it was about the killing of someone who rejects someone. or killing someone who defends themselves - i agree with you the psychology of a rapist is much more wracked than this. it’s not about justification although it seems like @Gnosis tries to make it an apology and unfortunately that’s how then a lot of male use it as an apology to not go into the other dynamics that keep them in a self justification loop. that’s probably why this forum is so much about learning to accept attacks towards the ego, for guys killing the ego seems to be a way to learn to think more logically to gain more empathy and being able to love more wholeheartedly without getting into contracted ego defense mode, which indeed is oftentimes the reason which then really is cutting a person off from the source of love.

understanding the mechanisms between a physical, psychological or self perpetuated threat.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember