Rape and India

[Derek White]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Would other men see him as a "beta man" or weak feminist lover? Or would he be perceived as doing the right thing?

In some places, I heard that even if they made an unintended eye contact with a female they would get beat up right there. It’s very conservative in that regard.

There’s more rape in purple and red parts of India where the upper caste well to do oppress the lowly and physically weak. Not all parts of India are equal.

These problems are not unique to India, Rape, open defecation, etc. happens in third world countries. India’s just talking about them more openly, which is good.

3 minutes ago, Dumuzzi said:

I'm a pretty big guy, but even I have been sexually harassed by Indian and Bangladeshi men. I can't imagine how bad it must be for women.

I have a feeling that this has a lot to do with religion. The two dominant religions in South Asia, Hinduism and Islam are both notorious for their lack of respect for women. If anything, Hinduism has been worse in this respect, with things like Suttee, the shunning of widows and the legal use of rape as a punishment. Islam of course isn't far behind, with honour killings and such. 

You would think that things have moved on, but suttee (the burning of widows alive, after their husband's death) still happens and it is all justified by one passage in the Ramayana.

I have never hear of anyone performing suttee or heard of rape as a punishment. Hinduism is not a sexist religion. They literally worship goddesses and the ancient culture is very open about sexuality. Have you read Ramayana and the ancient scriptures like Kamasutra?

If Hinduism is so bad then why is India, which is a majority Hindu country, secular and treats women as equals at least on paper? Look at the treatment of women in Bangladesh and Pakistan or any muslim country.

Obviously hundreds of years of Muslim and European rule has left a mark. What other country do you see that has been colonized and has kept it’s unity, culture, and is doing good?

Cut India some slack. It need to do better but it’s doing fine considering it’s history. India doesn’t need moral lessons from westerners.

[Annoynymous]

@Derek White Toxic nationalism is not really helpful regarding the discussion.

[Preety_India]

7 minutes ago, Dumuzzi said:

I'm a pretty big guy, but even I have been sexually harassed by Indian and Bangladeshi men. I can't imagine how bad it must be for women.

I have a feeling that this has a lot to do with religion. The two dominant religions in South Asia, Hinduism and Islam are both notorious for their lack of respect for women. If anything, Hinduism has been worse in this respect, with things like Suttee, the shunning of widows and the legal use of rape as a punishment. Islam of course isn't far behind, with honour killings and such. 

You would think that things have moved on, but suttee (the burning of widows alive, after their husband's death) still happens and it is all justified by one passage in the Ramayana.

This is perfectly true. Indian male mentality is one of the sickest in the world and there is complete lack of respect for women. It's a horror show. It is justified by the culture they have, the culture created by the patriarchal men and the religion created by the same men. Both are designed to degrade women. 

This is the main reason why I left Hinduism and turned towards Christianity. The religious beliefs about women in Hinduism is like mental sickness. It's terrible. All sorts of atrocities against women are justified in this religion. Hinduism has some great concepts for spiritual growth but when it comes to women, hinduism is very hateful. 

Indian history is bloody red with atrocities against women but it's carefully hidden from the world because the men don't want to feel responsible. 

They use the word "slut" to shame a woman and justify her rape. They even dissect a rapist's mentality rationalizing his behavior saying that he did it to punish the woman. Rape is not a punishment, it's a crime. It's a crime commited against women by sociopathic men who know that they will get away with it. They are not punishing the woman and the woman is not a slut, however an Indian man will try to make you believe that it's the woman who was not respectfully dressed and the man had to punish her, which is so illogical and absurd and is victim blaming and victim shaming. 

The government of India had to take strict action and enforce  rules to stop all sorts of cultural atrocities against women including Sati(Suttle-burning of a woman who lost her husband by telling her to jump in the funeral pyre) and dowry (a woman would be burned alive if her family didn't give enough dowry to satisfy the husband's parents) and female infanticide basically female child genocide (killing of a female child because she was considered a burden and the family wanted a son instead of a daughter), amniotic fluid testing to carry out abortions of female babies and list goes on and on... The government of India has done a good job (not a great job) but nevertheless the government has helped control and stop a lot of the hateful evil practices and rituals carried out against women in the name of patriarchal tradition, culture and religion. 

Indian women are still fighting strong against this evil patriarchy. Maybe it will take some time but hopefully it will happen where an Indian woman will not have to worry about living in constant terror or harassment and rape or any other atrocity. 

 

[Derek White]

@Annoynymous How the fuck am I being nationalistic?

Sattee is not considered part of Hinduism by many Hindus.

This stuff isn’t unique to Hinduism. It’s far less in Hinduism imo. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Derek White

[Parththakkar12]

18 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is the main reason why I left Hinduism and turned towards Christianity.

This issue will fundamentally be a part of any religion. Does Christianity treat women better? I don't think so. It has dogmas like 'Women belong in the kitchen' or 'Women should be modest' or 'Women shouldn't be sluts' or 'Abortion is a sin' or my personal favorite 'Women should be nice all the time and never get angry'. Feel free to explore it though!

If you get any value from western culture, I think it'll be due to their level of development and evolution.

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

This issue will fundamentally be a part of any religion. Does Christianity treat women better? I don't think so. It has dogmas like 'Women belong in the kitchen' or 'Women should be modest' or 'Women shouldn't be sluts' or 'Abortion is a sin' or my personal favorite 'Women should be nice all the time and never get angry'. Feel free to explore it though!

If you get any value from western culture, I think it'll be due to their level of development and evolution.

It's still way better than how Indians treat women. The treatment of women in India is appalling. 

If you think Christianity doesn't treat women better then look at western society, what do you see? Do you see women in the kitchen? Do you see women fully dressed and fully covered from head to toe? Do you see women not having boyfriends? Do you see women not getting abortion? The answer is No. Western women and basically Christian women do whatever they want and they have the full freedom to do what they want and the men respect their choices, not like Indian men. 

If an Indian woman tried to be liberated she will be called a slut or a feminist or  a bad woman and men like you might defend her rape by saying that she is not respectfully dressed. 

Christianity might have many dogmas but in reality it is a religion that offers greatest respect, freedom and love to women. It doesn't degrade them. That's the reason why western women feel free. All the dogmas in Christianity are only in books but not in real life. 

Hinduism is completely opposite. All the good things about worshipping and respecting women are only in books and movies but not in real life. Huge difference. 

If men in India really respected women so much then I wouldn't be facing so much harassment in my daily life from Indian men. 

Learn to accept reality. Just because you are not an Indian woman, you can't deny an Indian woman's claim or prove her wrong 

First be in her shoes and feel what she goes through. If you have empathy and care and understanding for Indian women you would want rape to stop and you would not be worried about what a woman wears because it's her body and her right and her freedom to wear what she wants. 

Get out of that sick patriarchal mentality. 

 

That's what Indian men need to do. They need to start respecting women instead of treating them as property that they can abuse and control. 

 

[Derek White]

22 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

This issue will fundamentally be a part of any religion. Does Christianity treat women better? I don't think so. It has dogmas like 'Women belong in the kitchen' or 'Women should be modest' or 'Women shouldn't be sluts' or 'Abortion is a sin' or my personal favorite 'Women should be nice all the time and never get angry'. Feel free to explore it though!

If you get any value from western culture, I think it'll be due to their level of development and evolution.

Right.

I was reading The Legend Of King Arthur, which lays the ground for western chivalry, and in it some of the round table knights have “forced” themselves upon women and it’s treated as normal. Cultures change, values change.

All I’m saying is stop singling out Hinduism.

And to say that Hinduism is more sexist than Islam is absurd imo. Even within India muslim women are far more oppressed than Hindu women.

Western evolution of values are build upon the degradation of other cultures. All you have to do is look at the history of “western values” and how they were practiced on Indians and Africans.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Derek White

[Preety_India]

Let's not bring religion here and compare two Devils and decide which one is a lesser devil. 

It is laughable to say one woman is more oppressed than another woman. Basically both women are oppressed. 

It's important for the men to be educated on how to respect women and their basic human rights and treat them as a human being. 

Oppression of women is a serious matter. Whether it is caused by religion or not is not even relevant. 

Women need to be liberated not oppressed. A sick hateful society that wants absolute control on women tries to oppress her by making rules and rituals and by threatening her safety and by judging her and shaming her when she tries to fight back 

Our country has a long way to go in learning to respect a woman's basic rights of safety and freedom

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

If you think Christianity doesn't treat women better then look at western society, what do you see? Do you see women in the kitchen? Do you see women fully dressed and fully covered from head to toe? Do you see women not having boyfriends? Do you see women not getting abortion? The answer is No. Western women and basically Christian women do whatever they want and they have the full freedom to do what they want and the men respect their choices, not like Indian men. 

This is cuz of their level of development, like they've moved past Blue into Orange/Green. The Bible is pretty archaic towards women!

 

[Parththakkar12]

@Preety_India I have some good news though. Those men, who don't respect women, will be scared shitless of an empowered woman! If you empower yourself, they won't go near you with a 10-foot pole. They'll go seek out someone they can control. What women can do about this is personally empower themselves and find their inherent autonomy. The more that happens, the more collective change will be effected, the more pressure will be put on men to follow suit. The power is in your hands!

[Annoynymous]

@Preety_India i think it's not about hinduism vs christianity or other religion. I think religion altogether is the reason of violence against women. You see, all most all religion encourages to suppress sexuality whereas people are inclined to their sexual desire. If you don't have the practice of expressing your sexuality in a healthy manner, they usually comes back to bite you in the ass. This is why sexually repressive people act in a hypocritic manner. Religion is one of the biggest advocate of sexual repression. 

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Preety_India I have some good news though. Those men, who don't respect women, will be scared shitless of an empowered woman! If you empower yourself, they won't go near you with a 10-foot pole. They'll go seek out someone they can control. What women can do about this is personally empower themselves and find their inherent autonomy. The more that happens, the more collective change will be effected, the more pressure will be put on men to follow suit. The power is in your hands!

It's not that easy. Society is not created only by women but also by men. Just because I get empowered doesn't mean anything. What about women who can't be empowered. This is a fallacy. This is like saying that the destiny of a woman in her own hands, a covert way of placing blame on her. So if she is not able to get justice, will you say that she is unempowered? 

This is a social issue that needs participation of both women and men. A woman cannot fight 100 men trying to gangrape her. If the justice system is against her, she cannot do much. Men also have to fight for women and that's called showing respect to women, not just sitting and watching passively women fighting for themselves. 

In what kind of society, men just stay silent and don't bother to protect a woman. Is that a good society? 

A society needs both men and women and both have a role to play. So safety of women is not just a woman's concern. Only a selfish person will imply that. An empathetic man will want justice for women and he will actively participate in that. 

There are many women who can't get Empowered, example mentally disabled women. Girls who are only 5 years old. You can't expect a 5 year old to be empowered. 

This is not about woman's empowerment. This is men taking action to save their society and taking action against sociopathic men and helping women to get justice and cooperating them to create a healthy society. 

 

[Parththakkar12]

19 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

It's not that easy. Society is not created only by women but also by men. Just because I get empowered doesn't mean anything. What about women who can't be empowered. This is a fallacy. This is like saying that the destiny of a woman in her own hands, a covert way of placing blame on her. So if she is not able to get justice, will you say that she is unempowered? 

I never said it's easy. We're in the dark ages and we've got a long long way to go. However, the reality is, that nobody can empower you except yourself. Empowerment is inherent and it's chosen. Maybe it means stepping into your power to reject dangerous men, maybe it means finding a way to exit this society, maybe it means finding some compromises (I don't prefer this one) with the patriarchy but choosing to do so instead of feeling like you had to.

19 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is a social issue that needs participation of both women and men. A woman cannot fight 100 men trying to gangrape her. If the justice system is against her, she cannot do much. Men also have to fight for women and that's called showing respect to women, not just sitting and watching passively women fighting for themselves. 

In what kind of society, men just stay silent and don't bother to protect a woman. Is that a good society? 

I wish we could change people!! It'd be really nice if we could. This isn't the reality we live in though. Change is gonna have to start with the individual cuz that's all you individually have control over. I understand it's really fucked up. This is what all of us are responsible for creating, men and women.

I'm not saying you should become empowered. That's entirely your choice and it's valid either way. I'm just suggesting a way out of this mess!

Edited March 9, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Preety_India]

@Parththakkar12  sorry for breaking your bubble but women are not responsible for creating this. They don't want this. That's why they are fighting against it. Now with more awareness and western interference it is possible for women of India to fight. Also there is support from Indian government and international organizations and it is really helping Indian women. 

Plus there is a good antidote to Indian men.... It's called social media. Now the whole world can see what's happening in India. Indian men can no longer hide their women hating culture. The cat is out of the bag. 

This wouldn't have been possible 50 years ago with no internet and no social media. Back then it was very easy for an Indian man to rape or burn a woman or stone her and get away with it. Because who is there to see? 

 

Now technology is making it possible for the cultures to get exposed the world over. Now India must have answers to the world if something bad happens to women in India. So the government is going to scramble to save face and do something strong to protect women in the future. 

This situation will not last forever thanks to international media, social media, internet, journalism, feminism, and most importantly technology and globalization. 

The sins of a culture will not remain hidden for too long. 

Also praises to all Indian women for fighting so hard and pushing against the evil patriarchy for paving the way to freedom for women. We have come very far in terms of education and employment. 

It's the Indian woman's forever struggle to fight the stupid system created by Indian men to oppress them. But karma has its way to work. 

Feminism will grow in India. I hope it grows bigger and stronger to fight evil oppressive regimes created by men. And in a country like India, Feminism is very much needed. It's a boon. A blessing. 

Eventually Indian women will get freedom and liberation from the terror of the patriarchy. It will happen. So don't worry. 

Indian women deserve all the freedom and opportunity and love and justice like all women around the world. 

Have a nice day. 

 

[Preety_India]

You know when Indian men will wake up? 

I'll tell you. 

When the international media will point fingers to the Indian man and ask "what are you doing exactly to protect the women of your country?" 

In that moment the Indian man will feel pressured to wake up and change his mentality towards women. 

 

[outlandish]

16 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You know when Indian men will wake up? 

I'll tell you. 

When the international media will point fingers to the Indian man and ask "what are you doing exactly to protect the women of your country?" 

In that moment the Indian man will feel pressured to wake up and change his mentality towards women. 

Good call

[Derek White]

Look what Sadhguru released on International Women’s day.

 

[Forestluv]

One of the metrics I look at for gender equality and perception of women is the percentage of women in parliament. 

Currently in India, women compose 78 of the 542 seats in the lower house of parliament = 14.4% women. This is a record number, reflective of changing attitudes - yet still below global averages. In the U.S., 24.5% of the lower parliament are women. Yet these numbers look archaic compared to the higher evolved countries. For example, Sweden parliament is 46% women. 

42 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

When the international media will point fingers to the Indian man and ask "what are you doing exactly to protect the women of your country?" 

This is a great question for a higher level of evolution. It applies in all countries.

A man may say "I see men and women as being equal". In the U.S., this was a progressive position in the 1980s. In the year 2020, it is a centrist position. The progressive position is to be an advocate for women's rights. 

This applies to all justice issues including racism and the environment. And easy way to see someone's level is how they react to progressive positions. Are they an advocate for social / environmental justice or do they sit aside or resist justice? For example, Jordan Peterson tries to come across as being progressive for gender / LGBTQ / environment, yet he is only progressive by 1980s standards - not 2020. When he is pressed, he defaults to resistance, he is not an advocate. 

 

[Parththakkar12]

Oh man! Equal representation in positions of power is a long way coming. There's more pressing issues right now, like dowry, female infanticide, equal opportunity for education for boys and girls, the whole institution of arranged marriage, etc. I distinctly remember that when I was in school, my school had twice the number of boys than girls. That can't possibly be an accident!

[Forestluv]

21 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Oh man! Equal representation in positions of power is a long way coming. There's more pressing issues right now, like dowry, female infanticide, equal opportunity for education for boys and girls, the whole institution of arranged marriage, etc. I distinctly remember that when I was in school, my school had twice the number of boys than girls. That can't possibly be an accident!

I'm not saying equal representation is the only metric. Yet it is a revealing metric for social perception and change. The issues you speak of like dowry, female infanticide, equal opportunity for education for boys and girls, the whole institution of arranged marriage etc. is related to the gender representation (and diversity representation) in government. For example, the Indian government is currently about 14%. If we flipped the script and the prime minister was a relatively young progressive female and 86% of government was relatively young progressive females, there would be some major changes taking place - including in all the areas you mentioned. 

By looking simply at the percentage of women in government of India and Sweden, one can make inferences about that society. There is a big difference between 14% and 45% women and that is an expression of the underlying conscious level of society. India is much more patriarchal and less progressive than Sweden. 

The same can be said in the U.S. We are also way under-represented with women. I'm not pointing at India as being an outlier. Similar dynamics are occurring in many countries. 

42 minutes ago, Derek White said:

 

 

The position of "gender doesn't matter, we are all human beings" is a hallmark transition from upper Orange to lower Green. The center of consciousness in the audience was likely center/high Orange, which is why Sadhguru pitched it at this level.