Rape and India

[Annoynymous]

Rape is one of the most heinous crime that happens all over the world. It is a common kind of crime not only in India, but also in all over the south east asia. Women in this region are vulnerable in street, in office and even in home. Thousands of rape happens all over India. Specially, Delhi, the capital city of India, is really very unsafe for women. In 2012, a medical student was  gang raped in bus  that captured attention of the global media. Civil society and students had protested a lot back then but the overall situation in India didn't improve much since then. The conscious citizen of the country are trying to create awareness to tackle this problem. In that part of effort, a short movie was released recently that had captured my attention. Here is the link of it -

The language used inthis short film is Hindi, so use subtitle to see it. This movie represents a range of emotions regarding rape. This movie also gives some powerful messages to create awareness, the thing that most needed in India. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Annoynymous

[Preety_India]

There is awareness in India about the unsafe situation of women to the point that I have also turned off my social media to Indian men. I have faced ton of sexual harassment on buses, on the streets and even at my office. It is sick. 

But only awareness is not enough. India is a deeply male dominated patriarchal society. I don't want to demonize Indian men because there are lots of Indian men who are good. But it's a fact that women suffer horribly in terms of sexual assault and rape almost on a daily basis and the world doesn't recognize it since the political parties in India try to hide it. 

Indian men cry victim whereas the real victim is the women. I know I will get down arrowed for this statement. It takes an enormous courage for an Indian woman to even open up about the situation. 

I had decided to open a thread about rape in India but there are lot of Indian guys on the forum so I decided not to out of fear of being objected and demonized. 

The demonization of women in India is intense almost to the point of Dehumanization. 

Any woman who wants to speak up is easily called and branded a feminist and put away. 

I cannot even talk about it in public because if I did I will face serious consequences like physical violence. 

Here is a link that describes the situation that happened to an Indian woman who decided to fight against rape by starting a campaign called "Shame the rapist" and the moment she did it, her car was vandalized and she received death threats. It's that serious. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN0LA2FA20150206

 

The fact that I'm responding to this thread is in itself a courageous move. Most Indian girls wouldn't talk about it out of shame and fear instilled in them by the patriarchal society. 

You will also observe a remarkable phenomenon online. You see a lot of Indian men but you see very few Indian women. That's because Indian men are notorious at chasing off Indian women out of the online space. Most Indian women are scared to upload personal details about their location as a result. 

I never tell people online the city I live in. Because there is the ever present threat of being stalking by Indian men online. 

Indian women are just told to disappear by their family in order to have some basic protection because the law doesn't protect women enough. So if I complained about a stalker to the police, they will tell me that it's my fault that I allowed it or just tell me to suck it up. 

I'm kinda glad you brought it up. 

The most common question that most Indian men ask me regularly is "where do you live?" "which city do you come from?" and I always remember to avoid that question and never answer it. For security reasons. 

But like I said awareness is not a solution because Indian women are well aware of the problem. And so are men. 

It's the law that needs to be strict towards bad behavior of men. There needs to be proper punishment and enforcement of laws and rules and make sure that victims of assault, rape and harassment get justice. 

 

 

[Preety_India]

 

Two other issues that Indian women face in the country are 

• Acid attacks... A lot of them happen and the blame is usually placed on the woman. Men make statements like "it's her character, she deserved it" tons of victim blaming if the victim is a woman. 
• Violence as a result of a rejection - its very frequent in India that if a woman rejects a guy (even a random guy) it immediately results in violence and murder. It's as though a lot of Indian men cannot take rejection fairly. They justify it with violence. 

 

India is a great place for spirituality. But when it comes to the treatment of women, it is in the dark ages. 

[Annoynymous]

@Preety_India I think the actual probelm lies in the social structure in India. Historically, women are treated as some kind of "property". They were not allowed to voice their choice even in the matter of their own marriage. Most of them couldn't choose the life partner according to their wish, they were demonized and even subjected to violance from their own family. This was a common case even 30-40 years ago. Now things improved a little bit but not enough. It's disheartening.

Conservetism is another aspect of the problem. As the society is deeply conservative, it doesn't feel good when it sees women are voicing their concerns, demanding their rights and going to work. People are always poking their nose into other's personal domain. A women will think many times before wearing skirts or the cloths of their choice because others will tell them, " it's too revealing" or something like that.

I think violence against women in India most likely to continue like this for another half a century with little progress here and there. Things will start changing after the society decides to shade some of its backward norms and regulations. 

[Preety_India]

@Annoynymous  yea that is true. 

I remember when I once wore a skirt to my office. It was the first time I wore a skirt. It was my birthday. Probably 2 years ago. And the guy at the office kept turning around and staring at my legs and making me very uncomfortable. He would constantly drop things on the floor just to look under my skirt. I really wanted to go home as soon as possible but I was tired of all the men staring and shaming me. I hurriedly got into my car and went home and didn't step out of the car till I reached close to the elevator. It was the most embarrassing moment of my life. 

After that I switched back to my jeans and T shirt and never wore a skirt again... 

 

[Annoynymous]

@Preety_India This surely depicts the situation In India while dealing with women. It doesn't matter what you want to wear, the matter is your freedom over your choice. That is what is missing.

[Parththakkar12]

There's only one solution to this issue : The people own their sexuality. For this, massive collective cultural shifts need to happen. My hope is this will happen in future generations, like 300-400 years. Until then, if you want a safer society, moving out of India is the only way. People here have relatively static worldviews and one-dimensional ways of thinking. As far as feminist campaigning goes, blood will be spilt over every feminist move.

I'm a guy and I don't feel safe here myself. I can imagine it's terrifying from women's perspective. As far as I can see, the best way to be safe here is to wear clothes that fit the traditional image of a 'respectable woman' as much as you can by wearing salwar kameez, etc. (If jeans & t-shirt are considered respectable nowadays, go for it) From a safety perspective, you want to come across as respectable as possible. I know this sounds like I'm not holding men accountable here, they are. Also, don't mistake this for patriarchial moralization. This conversation is about present-day everyday safety as opposed to a feminist vision for women's safety. Unfortunately, people are respected conditionally in this society. Basic human dignity/privacy/autonomy is not a given here. #SDStageBlue.

The reason I'm so resigned to the current situation is that most of India doesn't want progress on this. We're in high Blue-low Orange now and all eyes are set on economic growth. It'll take a few centuries before people become interested in taking action on this situation.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

@Parththakkar12 Regarding holding men accountable, I'm curious about the backlash if a man sticks up for a woman. In general. . . Let's say that a guy was at a gathering and a couple men were sexually harassing a woman. Perhaps, they have isolated her and touching her inappropriately (yet not as extreme as grabbing her genitalia). The woman is visibly uncomfortable. If a man stepped in and said "This is inappropriate. Respect women and stop harassing her". . . How would this go over? . . . I would think that the response could still depend on circumstances - yet I'm curious about in general how a man who came to the defense of a woman in this situation would be treated. 

[Parththakkar12]

Oh no! Molestation/Rape is a serious crime. If a guy sees a gang of other guys molesting/assaulting a woman the gang will run! They won't want to get in trouble with the police. At least that's what I'd expect would happen in such a situation. Rape is (or once was) punishable by death.

The problem here is the culture, which is heavily patriarchial. It's Stage Blue, where nobody has sexual autonomy (especially women). Even for men, being a 'player' is considered a bad thing. Being a 'slut' for women is not considered worthy of respect and that can attract dangerous men, i.e. men who won't respect her. My hope is that once we enter Stage Orange, more emphasis will come on individuality and autonomy and we'll leave this shit behind.

[Annoynymous]

@Serotoninluv well, i think it depends on the context. 

If the the guy who just protested is outnumbered by those who are molestating,  then chances are he will be just ignored or beaten up at worse.

If the protesting man gets others support, then those guys can back out or flee.

The chance of getting justice for the women? No much. Chances are she will no file a complaint in police station.

We only hear about the number of rapes and sexual harrasment that are reported or appear in the news. You have to also take account of those who are not reported. In fact, i believe at least 60% of the time it is not reported. The victim and her family most likely to assume that they are not gonna get any justice and on the top of that, they will just get defamed in the society.

I recommend you to watch the short film that i have posted here. It will give you some big picture perspective.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Annoynymous

[Parththakkar12]

Oh yeah! Being a rape victim is a huge social stigma. There's a lot of incentive for victims to not report it. Victim-blaming is a serious thing here socially.

I was in one of the top engineering colleges here. There were separate boys halls and girls halls (which itself is fucking archaic). What drove me nuts was that the girls had to be back in their halls by 12:30 pm! This was 'for their safety'. Sex between students wasn't allowed.

[outlandish]

1 minute ago, Annoynymous said:

i believe at least 60% of the time it is not reported.

I bet 99% of the time it goes unreported. Even in nations with stronger women's rights and respect these things barely get reported.

Especially if you include the day-to-day harassment like ass-grabbing on crowded busses and what not that goes on constantly in India (and other places), it would be like 99.99%

[Annoynymous]

@outlandish I think this vicious crime against women needs to stop. Consent is a foreign concept in south asia. I wonder what really a guy enjoy when he approaches sexually to a women without her consent. I mean, sex/sexual intimacy is about two people coming together and enjoying each other at their will. If one of them doesn't want it, then doing it forcefully makes no sense. It is a sick mentality and unfortunately,  it is so common in this region. Such a shame.  

Edited March 9, 2020 by Annoynymous

[Parththakkar12]

@Annoynymous I'll tell you what I think the mentality is : Guy sees girl who isn't 'respectable' by the patriarchial standards he's programmed with. Part of him internally degrades her for not being respectable, and part of him starts thinking about punishing her for being that way, i.e. not helping him control his sexual urges by being a 'slut'. This creates a sick cycle of getting off on 'punishing women'. I'm making my best effort to look at the dynamic without judgement!

The patriarchy shames women for being overtly sexual. The reason for this is well-known to conscious people - if sex ran free, before birth-control was invented, this meant pregnancy risks and too many kids to take care of. It's designed to control all parties involved into raising kids as effectively as possible! My point is that as dysfunctional as it is, it's well-intentioned. The more we reduce the need for these control-mechanisms collectively by more education on sex, birth-control, more sexual autonomy, more economic development, etc. the more we'll be able to let go of the need for this major collective institution, the more we'll be able to resolve this!

Edited March 9, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Annoynymous]

@Parththakkar12 i kinda agree with you on that point. I think those who rape/molestate are not only motivated by their sexual urges but also by showing power over women.

[Forestluv]

33 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Oh no! Molestation/Rape is a serious crime. If a guy sees a gang of other guys molesting/assaulting a woman the gang will run! They won't want to get in trouble with the police. At least that's what I'd expect would happen in such a situation. Rape is (or once was) punishable by death.

I'm not asking about rape. I'm wondering about more subtle forms. For example, perhaps a woman is being sexually harassed at work (at a low level) - not rape. Or perhaps on a train or at a party. The guy is overstepping boundaries. Perhaps he is getting a little to close, rubbing up against her or whispering something in her ear. How would a man be perceived if he intervened and stepped up for the woman? Would other men see him as a "beta man" or weak feminist lover? Or would he be perceived as doing the right thing?

[Parththakkar12]

If it's debatable whether it's harassment or not, then people generally won't speak up. They'll wait for the woman to explicate that it really was harassment before taking action. If they don't do that, they'd be creating an unnecessary conflict with an innocent man! If it clearly is harassment though (confirmed by victim), then if it's a public place, everyone will start beating the shit out of the perceived perpetrator! Which brings me to this point : If a woman yells 'rapist' in a public place, that guy is dead! This is one of the big reasons why there's such resistance to feminism here.

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Would other men see him as a "beta man" or weak feminist lover? Or would he be perceived as doing the right thing?

Not only will they perceive him to be doing the right thing, they'll join in and crack down on the perceived perpetrator. It'll be jointly perceived as 'standing up against a bad criminal'.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[outlandish]

6 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Annoynymous I'll tell you what I think the mentality is : Guy sees girl who isn't 'respectable' by the patriarchial standards he's programmed with. Part of him internally degrades her for not being respectable, and part of him starts thinking about punishing her for being that way, i.e. not helping him control his sexual urges by being a 'slut'. This creates a sick cycle of getting off on 'punishing women'. I'm making my best effort to look at the dynamic without judgement!

That makes sense. Obvious I'm not condoning the behaviour, just that the perspective makes it more understandable how this behaviour happens.

I'm hopeful that it could change a lot faster than 300-400 years. It's surprising how quickly things can change. With the right awareness and dialogue, societies hit tipping points, and then everything shifts.

[Parththakkar12]

There's a lot of fear and stigma stopping victims from speaking up. Once they do speak up though, everyone's on their side! They do see rape/harassment as bad. Also, the society here places a lot of value on justice/giving criminals due sentencing. The media here is very progressive and supportive of victims speaking up. It's not all roses for victims, like there will be victim-blaming, stigmas to face, threats from perpetrators, etc. But the only way out is to break the slience.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Dumuzzi]

I'm a pretty big guy, but even I have been sexually harassed by Indian and Bangladeshi men. I can't imagine how bad it must be for women.

I have a feeling that this has a lot to do with religion. The two dominant religions in South Asia, Hinduism and Islam are both notorious for their lack of respect for women. If anything, Hinduism has been worse in this respect, with things like Suttee, the shunning of widows and the legal use of rape as a punishment. Islam of course isn't far behind, with honour killings and such. 

You would think that things have moved on, but suttee (the burning of widows alive, after their husband's death) still happens and it is all justified by one passage in the Ramayana.