Empaths vs. Narcissists

[Lento]

Hey guys! I hope you're all doing great.

So, I've researched quite some bit about this dynamic, especially in relationships. And from my real life experiences, I can confirm that it's true. I've been quite a narcissist since my early childhood, then during college, and as I started my spiritual journey, I started moving more towards empathy. Right now, I would say that I'm about 80% empath and 20% narcissist. The way I perceive human personality is one of a spectrum, so I believe there isn't an absolute empath nor an absolute narcissist, but rather a mix of both in different proportions.

In the last couple of years, I've noticed that I feel attracted to narcissists, and that they are attracted to me. This dynamic has occurred to me thrice or more (not only in relationships), and I also fantasise about it sometimes. And after years of spirituality, meditation, personal development, etc... I've become more understanding of narcissists in general and more aware of how they think, act, and react. I learned to always create exit points, and to always have some cards hidden which the other person has no clue of. I've learned to make a narcissist feel completely in control while they actually aren't. This is the only way I know of that I can use to protect myself from narcissists.

I think that right now I'm in a relationship with a narcissist, one that appears to be having father issues and sadomasochistic tendencies, which explains how she also has empathy. The thing is that I think we're Twin Flames. Both of us have grown the most when we were together, we both connected very deeply on all levels, and we complete each other in very special ways. The problem, though, is that right now she's trying to manipulate me, like hurting me emotionally. I don't know if she's aware of what she's doing, and I can't discuss this issue with her right now because that's part of her manipulation; She's trying to manipulate me by staying away from me. This dynamic has occurred once before, but it seemed like her empathetic side interfered or some complex narcissistic dynamic took place. After that, she asked me why I am into her, and I said that I love her company, and that it's the only thing I want from her. Apparently, now she's taking away from me the only thing I said I wanted, trying to cause me emotional pain and expecting me to react. At first, I wasn't sure about that, so I reacted normally, and that fed into her narcissism, yet after a while, her empathetic side or something else interfered again. But now that I am certain, I stopped reacting completely. She seems to be swinging on the spectrum from one end to another. I'd like to mention that she's in a quite stressful situation right now, so maybe that plays a role?

Also, I've noticed that both narcissists and empaths like extreme emotional stimulation, or rather they don't find satisfaction elsewhere. Right now, and as I'm moving towards a stable balanced personality, I notice that I am becoming less identified with the emotional extremes. I notice that I started preferring to have a more stable relationship without much manipulation, although I would still allow a little bit of manipulation from either partners just to spice things up from time to time.

Any advice? Suggestions? Opinions? I'd like to hear from you guys. I don't want to give up on this relationship because it's quite rare to find a Twin Flame. I've read that narcissism decreases with age, and that it can be cured. What do you think guys? I could use any outside perspective. I might be missing something, and I don't want to make this decision solely on my own, because it's very important to me.

Thank you.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Lento

[Lento]

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

If she does have NPD

I would rate her as 70% narcissistic. It's really difficult to say that she has NPD because she shows conflicting behaviours. Perhaps her high morality conflicts with her emotions, and so she swings from end to end.

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

you need to train them by leading them in a way that is respectful to you.  They won't automatically do it for you unless they are very conscious themselves.

Compared to ordinary people, especially where we live, she's highly conscious and very open-minded. Still, not quite as I am (also compared to where we live). But she's highly moral and responsible, so I don't worry about this problem.

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

I would throw out the term empath and twin flame.  The modern definition of empath is just basic empathy and mirroring neurons - most humans have this, it isn't some special thing.  True "empaths" have what is called "low latent inhibition", these people can be cluster b's as well as neurotypicals.

Actually, I do think that I have low latent inhibition as I struggle to stick to a routine. I find it more joyful to go with the flow. I also identify myself as cluster b type, and a little bit neurotypical. So, basically, I am an empath.

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

As for twin flame, in my experience, your twin is more of an archetype that you play out with another - and multiple people can have that same archetype.  We reincarnate, so your twin can literally be many people living right now.  If this twin is sucking you dry, you can find another who has that same archetype.  This is why you will see people get confused about having a connection with someone and it not working out, they think that connection is exclusive to "The One", when in reality "The One" is actually multiple.  It's up to you to find yourself so that when you do find "One of your Ones", that the pairing works out without much issue.

I don't know about this. I have never connected with anyone quite like her in my entire life. Not even a friend, nor a family member.

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

The idea that twin flames should be struggling and fighting and manipulating one another in the name of growth is totally false.

Of course. I hope I didn't sound like I'm saying anything near that. I said I would allow a little bit of manipulation to stir up the emotional stuff from time to time, but that's it. That'd make the relationship feel more alive. I just don't want a very static relationship.

1 hour ago, Keyhole said:

If this isn't normal behaviour for her unless she is in a stressful situation, then back off and wait until she approaches.  Let her do the work.  If she wants you, she will, if she doesn't then she will leave.  When she is not in a stressful situation, ask her about these things and tell her that you want to work on it.

This sounds plausible. I guess I'll have to wait.

..

That was very eye-opening. Thank you so much. And please let me hear if you have any other thoughts.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Lento

[Preety_India]

I had an NPD boyfriend in 2018. And it took me a year to just realize that he is NPD and in November of last year I finally broke up with him. NPD goes undetected unless you are alert and educated on it. 

I Googled his behavioral symptoms some months before and a chance reading on narcissistic abuse caught my attention and that's when I began to realize that all of his behavior matched the pattern of narcissistic abuse. 

I would personally say that rarely ever does an NPD heal. It's almost next to impossible. Maybe after a lot of therapy but I just never heard that someone recovered from it. 

So the best thing is to leave that person before further damage is done. That's what I did. They don't change. Even if they change its for a short while. 

I used to hang onto the relationship thinking that it he is my twin flame. That is such a fallacy. You can't allow yourself to be abused by a twin flame. Allow a good human being to be your partner. 

Some of the traits to determine if you are suffering narcissistic abuse are 

• They gaslight you 
• They try to control you
• They constantly maintain their status of being superior in the relationship 
• They want constant praise
• They switch off communication as a way of punishment 
• They do exactly what you don't want them to do 
• They never do what you want 
• They never give you compliments 
• They will engage in affairs or bring up a third party as a way to isolate you 
• They don't like being told. 
• There is thing which I call the narcissistic trap. They use this a lot. What it means is they tell you or expect you to do something and then bash you for doing it. For example if you are driving fast, they would whine about it and tell you to go slpw. If you go slow, they would start complaining it as well. So you feel trapped. You don't know what will impress them and they like your confused state 
• Narcissistic Projection : they do this a lot. Let's say they are lying about something. And you don't know about it. Then they are going to accuse you of lying even if you didn't. They project their own behavior on others. 
• Hallmark of a narcissist - the litmus test of narcissism. They will treat you like a disposable. They will use you as long as they want and then drop you. They lack emotional connections and they treat people as objects, as means to get their ends. 

They are many more symptoms of their abusive behavior however right now I can't recall all of them. One is that they constantly manipulate a lot. 

I'd stay away from them. Having experienced it myself it caused a lot of damage to my self esteem and growth. You feel stripped off everything in the process of feeding them 

 

[Martin123]

14 hours ago, Lento said:

Hey guys! I hope you're all doing great.

So, I've researched quite some bit about this dynamic, especially in relationships. And from my real life experiences, I can confirm that it's true. I've been quite a narcissist since my early childhood, then during college, and as I started my spiritual journey, I started moving more towards empathy. Right now, I would say that I'm about 80% empath and 20% narcissist. The way I perceive human personality is one of a spectrum, so I believe there isn't an absolute empath nor an absolute narcissist, but rather a mix of both in different proportions.

In the last couple of years, I've noticed that I feel attracted to narcissists, and that they are attracted to me. This dynamic has occurred to me thrice or more (not only in relationships), and I also fantasise about it sometimes. And after years of spirituality, meditation, personal development, etc... I've become more understanding of narcissists in general and more aware of how they think, act, and react. I learned to always create exit points, and to always have some cards hidden which the other person has no clue of. I've learned to make a narcissist feel completely in control while they actually aren't. This is the only way I know of that I can use to protect myself from narcissists.

I think that right now I'm in a relationship with a narcissist, one that appears to be having father issues and sadomasochistic tendencies, which explains how she also has empathy. The thing is that I think we're Twin Flames. Both of us have grown the most when we were together, we both connected very deeply on all levels, and we complete each other in very special ways. The problem, though, is that right now she's trying to manipulate me, like hurting me emotionally. I don't know if she's aware of what she's doing, and I can't discuss this issue with her right now because that's part of her manipulation; She's trying to manipulate me by staying away from me. This dynamic has occurred once before, but it seemed like her empathetic side interfered or some complex narcissistic dynamic took place. After that, she asked me why I am into her, and I said that I love her company, and that it's the only thing I want from her. Apparently, now she's taking away from me the only thing I said I wanted, trying to cause me emotional pain and expecting me to react. At first, I wasn't sure about that, so I reacted normally, and that fed into her narcissism, yet after a while, her empathetic side or something else interfered again. But now that I am certain, I stopped reacting completely. She seems to be swinging on the spectrum from one end to another. I'd like to mention that she's in a quite stressful situation right now, so maybe that plays a role?

Also, I've noticed that both narcissists and empaths like extreme emotional stimulation, or rather they don't find satisfaction elsewhere. Right now, and as I'm moving towards a stable balanced personality, I notice that I am becoming less identified with the emotional extremes. I notice that I started preferring to have a more stable relationship without much manipulation, although I would still allow a little bit of manipulation from either partners just to spice things up from time to time.

Any advice? Suggestions? Opinions? I'd like to hear from you guys. I don't want to give up on this relationship because it's quite rare to find a Twin Flame. I've read that narcissism decreases with age, and that it can be cured. What do you think guys? I could use any outside perspective. I might be missing something, and I don't want to make this decision solely on my own, because it's very important to me.

Thank you.

Your partner doesn't sound like a narcissist, just like someone with an avoidant attachment style coming form a background of emotional neglect. I understand your perception that it feels like narcissism from your point of view because your attachment is oriented towards connection and relationships, which is likely the polar opposite of hers - for her relationships have likely been unsafe and a source of pain and loss. So she instinctively acts in ways that keep her 'safe from connection'.
 

 

This isn't to justify treatment and behaviors that don't feel good to you. but to give you understanding so you can act and set boundaries effectively with compassion, and with the knowledge of what's best for you. I understand what this is like. I dated a DA, it was a very deep empathic connection, and it blew up in my face and completely destroyed me to my core. Thank god it did, it made me so much better than I was before :). But you can only see that after you swim through the endless hell of the deepest pain. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Martin123

[Lento]

On 09/03/2020 at 1:46 AM, Keyhole said:

Could be BPD then. If she doesn't act out very often, then probably not histrionic. BPD folks will have empathy and morals, and will also do push-pull, but a characteristic of NPD is that they don't have morals, they fake them. True NPD is like a shadow of a person in every way, they stop developing at a very young age - an age before morality can be developed.

It's possible. I think I used to have it to a similar degree and that it's improved. I may still have it, but not as much.

20 hours ago, Keyhole said:

I would say a good majority of people who say they are empaths don't really know what it means. Do you find that you have sensory issues, tend to be able to notice small details and piece them together in a way where you are generally consistently intuitively right?

That's exactly what I do! Trust me when I tell that I don't want to be an empath, because it's hurting my survival. I'm in the process of learning to let go of it, although I notice that it is constantly growing. I quite often put myself in other people's shoes that I forget mine. My selflessness is hurting me. Every time I tell myself that I should become more selfish, I forget and fall back again. Recently, I've realised that the goodness of everyone is found in my own. If I survive better, everyone else will.

20 hours ago, Keyhole said:

You can test it out; have you had an experience of your true Self centered in the heart area? - where we all connect to one another as one unified field? 
If so, try remembering that place when talking to other people and see if you can enter that space with other people.
If you have not had that experience, it is a space located in your solar plexus, behind the heart area.  If you meditate on that spot frequently and send out loving energy to yourself and your environment, then this will grow and you can connect -  Synchronicity will happen with many people, all over the place, all the time and within people who are on your radio's wavelength. 
I frequently get on other people's wavelengths to the point where I am feeling them in another dimension and thought initially that this was a twin flame dynamic a few years ago - and I got really weird about it - but then the same phenomenon happened again, and again, and again, and even with people of other genders and even people on this forum.
I can intuitively understand how the TF dynamic would work - but I don't think that we are so limited that it would just be one person, or one incarnation.  Some people even report close family members or members of the same sex (when they are straight) being a TF.

I don't have much experience in these regards. Maybe I will try to, I don't know.

Yeah, I didn't say it's just one Twin Flame. I said it's quite rare.

20 hours ago, Keyhole said:

I have a strong feeling that there is another, even deeper mechanism at play.

How about empathy? I feel like I should somehow make up to her traumatic past. I feel like I should be like a father to her. I also feel like she's walking down the same path I have, I remember being in a similar place, and I know how it feels. I'm trying to help her out. I don't want to leave her alone, because it was really difficult for me when I was left alone with no help and no one to understand me. I spent years struggling and making mistakes until I've got to where I am right now. I think I could protect her from harming herself and wasting her time and energy. I told her that I would not have a problem being just friends with her if that's fine. She wants to remain loving and loyal to each other but to stay away from each other too. She wants to free me from obligation I believe because she has high morality. As well, she can't be friends with me. I sense that she wants to feel protected, like she wants to have me like a father who she can return back to when she needs help and feels weak. I sense that she just wants to know that I will be there for her. That may be giving her the things she always wanted; love, support, understanding, reassurance, and protection. Right now, I'm questioning if I should or not. I mean I want to, and I guess I could, but it's not as much fulfilling to me.

I guess either that is true, or my empathy is distorting my perception.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Lento

[Lento]

21 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I had an NPD boyfriend in 2018. And it took me a year to just realize that he is NPD and in November of last year I finally broke up with him. NPD goes undetected unless you are alert and educated on it. 

I Googled his behavioral symptoms some months before and a chance reading on narcissistic abuse caught my attention and that's when I began to realize that all of his behavior matched the pattern of narcissistic abuse. 

I would personally say that rarely ever does an NPD heal. It's almost next to impossible. Maybe after a lot of therapy but I just never heard that someone recovered from it. 

So the best thing is to leave that person before further damage is done. That's what I did. They don't change. Even if they change its for a short while. 

I used to hang onto the relationship thinking that it he is my twin flame. That is such a fallacy. You can't allow yourself to be abused by a twin flame. Allow a good human being to be your partner. 

Some of the traits to determine if you are suffering narcissistic abuse are 

• They gaslight you 
• They try to control you
• They constantly maintain their status of being superior in the relationship 
• They want constant praise
• They switch off communication as a way of punishment 
• They do exactly what you don't want them to do 
• They never do what you want 
• They never give you compliments 
• They will engage in affairs or bring up a third party as a way to isolate you 
• They don't like being told. 
• There is thing which I call the narcissistic trap. They use this a lot. What it means is they tell you or expect you to do something and then bash you for doing it. For example if you are driving fast, they would whine about it and tell you to go slpw. If you go slow, they would start complaining it as well. So you feel trapped. You don't know what will impress them and they like your confused state 
• Narcissistic Projection : they do this a lot. Let's say they are lying about something. And you don't know about it. Then they are going to accuse you of lying even if you didn't. They project their own behavior on others. 
• Hallmark of a narcissist - the litmus test of narcissism. They will treat you like a disposable. They will use you as long as they want and then drop you. They lack emotional connections and they treat people as objects, as means to get their ends. 

They are many more symptoms of their abusive behavior however right now I can't recall all of them. One is that they constantly manipulate a lot. 

I'd stay away from them. Having experienced it myself it caused a lot of damage to my self esteem and growth. You feel stripped off everything in the process of feeding them.

Wow! Thank you. And thank God she's not at all like that. Your ex seems like a very severe case of narcissism. You've definitely better off without him. For me, if anything, she's only like 5-10% of that.

14 hours ago, Martin123 said:

Your partner doesn't sound like a narcissist, just like someone with an avoidant attachment style coming form a background of emotional neglect. I understand your perception that it feels like narcissism from your point of view because your attachment is oriented towards connection and relationships, which is likely the polar opposite of hers - for her relationships have likely been unsafe and a source of pain and loss. So she instinctively acts in ways that keep her 'safe from connection'.
 

 

This isn't to justify treatment and behaviors that don't feel good to you. but to give you understanding so you can act and set boundaries effectively with compassion, and with the knowledge of what's best for you. I understand what this is like. I dated a DA, it was a very deep empathic connection, and it blew up in my face and completely destroyed me to my core. Thank god it did, it made me so much better than I was before :). But you can only see that after you swim through the endless hell of the deepest pain. 

Thanks for the perspective. I wasn't aware of the concept of attachment styles. She does seem to have an avoidant attachment style. Apparently, it doesn't only affect the receiving end. I think I'm lucky to have swimmed already in that endless hell of the deepest pain. I just don't want her to do the same thing. I've been like that for years, and I still am to a certain degree. But I'm working through it and I'm improving, and I want her to improve too without having to struggle as much.

[Forestluv]

@Lento From what you described, she doesn’t sound like NPD or BPD to me. It seems like she more likely has issues with intimacy, avoidance and perhaps abandonment. 

This part caught my attention:

2 hours ago, Lento said:

It's possible. I think I used to have it to a similar degree and that it's improved. I may still have it, but not as much.

That's exactly what I do! Trust me when I tell that I don't want to be an empath, because it's hurting my survival. I'm in the process of learning to let go of it, although I notice that it is constantly growing. I quite often put myself in other people's shoes that I forget mine. My selflessness is hurting me. Every time I tell myself that I should become more selfish, I forget and fall back again. Recently, I've realised that the goodness of everyone is found in my own. If I survive better, everyone else will.

How about empathy? I feel like I should somehow make up to her traumatic past. I feel like I should be like a father to her. I also feel like she's walking down the same path I have, I remember being in a similar place, and I know how it feels. I'm trying to help her out. I don't want to leave her alone, because it was really difficult for me when I was left alone with no help and no one to understand me. I spent years struggling and making mistakes until I've got to where I am right now. I think I could protect her from harming herself and wasting her time and energy. I told her that I would not have a problem being just friends with her if that's fine. She wants to remain loving and loyal to each other but to stay away from each other too. She wants to free me from obligation I believe because she has high morality. As well, she can't be friends with me. I sense that she wants to feel protected, like she wants to have me like a father who she can return back to when she needs help and feels weak. I sense that she just wants to know that I will be there for her. That may be giving her the things she always wanted; love, support, understanding, reassurance, and protection. Right now, I'm questioning if I should or not. I mean I want to, and I guess I could, but it's not as much fulfilling to me.

I guess either that is true, or my empathy is distorting my perception.

I can’t count how many times I’ve been in this situation. In the past, I’ve had a strong attraction to women that are vulnerable and have experienced abuse and trauma in their past. As you say “I want to make it up to them”. I want to give them what they were deprived of. I want to make it better.

I would say that this is a form of empathy and I would consider it an immature form of empathy. I don’t mean this in a condescending way. It wasn’t until I was 48 y.o and went through about 15 of these relationships before I was able to develop this empathy to a higher level. Empathy can be an anchor involved in unhealthy dynamics, yet it can also be absolutely beautiful in mature healthy dynamics. . . . I don’t mean to suggest that you are in an unhealthy dynamic. However, I would be mindful of this empathic dynamic you just described. The good news is that you are aware of it and can work with it. For example. . . Setting personal boundaries. . . .

 

[Preety_India]

4 hours ago, Lento said:

Wow! Thank you. And thank God she's not at all like that. Your ex seems like a very severe case of narcissism. You've definitely better off without him. For me, if anything, she's only like 5-10% of that.

You are welcome. Glad to know that she isn't like that. Yeah my ex boyfriend was a severe case of narcissistic personality disorder. 

If you guys can work things out then it would be great because getting a twin flame is a rare phenomenon. 

I hope everything works out for the best for you guys. 

 

 

[Derek White]

@Lento Aye yo buddy! May I recommend a YouTube channel? She is a doctor who talks and gives advice about narcissism, check her out.

 https://www.youtube.com/user/DoctorRamanDurvasula

[Preety_India]

Omg this thread is so packed with information. I love that. Wish all threads were like this. 

I might use some of the information on here in my journal if any of you guys don't mind. 

 

[Lento]

On 09/03/2020 at 6:59 AM, Keyhole said:

That sounds like codependency.

That's not entirely false. It's a little bit complicated. We didn't meet at first looking for love. It started with empathy, and then evolved into love. All the while, I used to be codependent and I couldn't help it, until the first time she did that same dynamic. At that point, we got back together and discussed what happened and I was able to see what's going on on my side. From that then on, I started to become more aware and move towards independence. That's why I want her in my life. You don't find such great people every day. Right now, I'm closer to independence than I ever was, yet I still prefer having her in my life. The amount of growth we were having together was just unbelievable. If it wasn't for her, I would have probably never been able to notice my own dynamics and work on them.

Thanks for the rest. You're very kind. I will check out the video and the channel.

..

11 hours ago, Derek White said:

@Lento Aye yo buddy! May I recommend a YouTube channel? She is a doctor who talks and gives advice about narcissism, check her out.

 https://www.youtube.com/user/DoctorRamanDurvasula

Thank you so much. I will check the channel out.

[Lento]

13 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Lento From what you described, she doesn’t sound like NPD or BPD to me. It seems like she more likely has issues with intimacy, avoidance and perhaps abandonment.

Yeah, I don't think she has a serious mental illness. It's probably just some shadow and trauma issues.

13 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Lento 

I would consider it an immature form of empathy.

I'm working my way around this. Any advice would be helpful.

13 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@LentoHowever, I would be mindful of this empathic dynamic you just described. The good news is that you are aware of it and can work with it. For example. . . Setting personal boundaries. . . .

Credits to her, she was the one who introduced me to how to create boundaries.

..

11 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Omg this thread is so packed with information. I love that. Wish all threads were like this.

Oh, you haven't seen me and her discussing something. The levels of connection and understanding were beyond imagination! It was infinite growth!