This Forum (what it actually is)

[QandC]

...and what you just did WAS EXACTLY THAT! 

 

Btw. what other forms of way do you propose to us discussing and trying to help each other through? Everything in your life can be a trap. It's about finding what actually works for yourself that's important.

[Inliytened1]

49 minutes ago, SOUL said:

@Inliytened1 @TheAvatarState So both of you validate your own experience, of course you do otherwise you wouldn't view it as valid. You trust your experience is true, that it is what it is, you believe it because that's what the word means.

Although, are you suggesting it is 'valid' for everyone? That if they don't experience and perceive as you do it's invalid? That it's 'false'?

The best way i can explain it is that the Truth goes full circle into objectivity.  Formed reality is completely relative and subjective.  In other words reality is an absolute relativity.  It is so relative that it goes full circle into the Absolute.  (The formless)

[SOUL]

17 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

The best way i can explain it is that the Truth goes full circle into objectivity.  Formed reality is completely relative and subjective.  In other words reality is an absolute relativity.  It is so relative that it goes full circle into the Absolute.  (The formless)

That was the best way you could explain? Wow, glad you didnt offer the worst way to explain it. Although, I didn't ask for en explanation, I asked for a simple answer.

If someone doesn't experience, perceive and now I will add explain it the same exact way as you do is it 'false' and invalid? It's a pretty straight forward question, no need to explain the unexplainable to answer it.

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, SOUL said:

That was the best way you could explain? Wow, glad you didnt offer the worst way to explain it. Although, I didn't ask for en explanation, I asked for a simple answer.

If someone doesn't experience, perceive and now I will add explain it the same exact way as you do is it 'false' and invalid? It's a pretty straight forward question, no need to explain the unexplainable to answer it.

Before we could go further , we have to first assume the Absolute is objective.  Otherwise the whole conversation is void.  Agreed?   So let's make sure we clarify that - the Absolute is the Absolute because it is not the relative.

Now, that being said - Leo and the mods definitely make a subjective call to lock threads or ban users.   As for the locking of threads - it is a subjective call based on the post.  The title of a post such as God is not the Absolute is clearly not what is the Absolute - as the Absolute is Infinity and God is Infinity.  This is something one can become directly conscious of and it is not subjective.  Mystical states of consciousness are not subjective.

This is something that can't be proven because Truth is prior to proof.

 

 

[TheAvatarState]

47 minutes ago, tedens said:

@TheAvatarState I think you should get Leo's answer to your question.

I don't have any more questions for you all, at least any that I can't just ask myself. This thread is my parting gift/present to/from the forum. I see what this all is now. I won't be needing it anymore; it's just a distraction.

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

So i guess we should just toss out all the videos and the books on the booklist?

That's not what I'm saying at all. This is a classic case of muddying the waters.

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Understanding the difference between actuality and concept didn't help you with becoming actuality?

The difference between actuality and concept is conceptual, as it must be because all differences and samenesses are imagined... everything is one. This duality collapses into Actuality, where you see that even the experience of being lost in concept is actual. But you can only understand this when you have previously separated the two, to make you free and conscious of the chains and limitations of concept. But notice that seeing the difference between the two was a conceptual activity. In the end, the conceptual framework to get to the collapse of this duality was a delusion. Perhaps I never needed it... maybe there's a more direct path. Why keep building conceptual bridges only to burn them down later?

Let's take Leo's recommended practice of looking at your hand. Once you "get it," that the hand is being imagined and all labels melt away and you're just left with raw data/experience of *something* in front of you... you no longer have to find a difference between actuality and concept. It was all imaginary. Everything and nothing is actual. Actual = that which is the case. The idea of concept melts away, and you realize that a concept only exists as a concept, a further distinction you created within consciousness. You create more layers between you and Truth, and yet those layers ARE Truth as well! Truth is the entire onion, and each layer of the onion. An unpeeled onion is "truth" and the core of the onion is "truth."  A "difference" only exists because you believe it does. I'm deep enough in the onion to see that it doesn't matter, it's all Good. It's a really hard pill for me to swallow right now (maybe I didn't explain it well, for the exact reasons I stated above), but I'm convinced it's true. My identity is tied to finding and understanding truth, and now I realize there's no end and no beginning. THIS RIGHT HERE IS IT. TA-DA! Terrifying, I know. Truth found, but that doesn't mean my work is not done. It just means I'm done bullshitting with myself on the forum. Truth is a meta-truth. 

 

2 hours ago, SOUL said:

Although, are you suggesting it is 'valid' for everyone? That if they don't experience and perceive as you do it's invalid? That it's 'false'?

Well... it's kinda complicated lol. My head hurts and I despise using English, despite that being the only language I know. Any individual's experience is Truth ("valid"), however, they become deluded when they believe the concepts, labels, and metaphysical framework they overlay on reality to be true. In essence, they don't understand what they're seeing; it's like only seeing a mirage or an outline. The experience itself is valid. 

[Inliytened1]

15 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

I don't have any more questions for you all, at least any that I can't just ask myself. This thread is my parting gift/present to/from the forum. I see what this all is now. I won't be needing it anymore; it's just a distraction.

That's not what I'm saying at all. This is a classic case of muddying the waters.

The difference between actuality and concept is conceptual, as it must be because all differences and samenesses are imagined... everything is one. This duality collapses into Actuality, where you see that even the experience of being lost in concept is actual. But you can only understand this when you have previously separated the two, to make you free and conscious of the chains and limitations of concept. But notice that seeing the difference between the two was a conceptual activity. In the end, the conceptual framework to get to the collapse of this duality was a delusion. Perhaps I never needed it... maybe there's a more direct path. Why keep building conceptual bridges only to burn them down later?

Let's take Leo's recommended practice of looking at your hand. Once you "get it," that the hand is being imagined and all labels melt away and you're just left with raw data/experience of *something* in front of you... you no longer have to find a difference between actuality and concept. It was all imaginary. Everything and nothing is actual. Actual = that which is the case. The idea of concept melts away, and you realize that a concept only exists as a concept, a further distinction you created within consciousness. You create more layers between you and Truth, and yet those layers ARE Truth as well! Truth is the entire onion, and each layer of the onion. An unpeeled onion is "truth" and the core of the onion is "truth."  A "difference" only exists because you believe it does. I'm deep enough in the onion to see that it doesn't matter, it's all Good. It's a really hard pill for me to swallow right now (maybe I didn't explain it well, for the exact reasons I stated above), but I'm convinced it's true. My identity is tied to finding and understanding truth, and now I realize there's no end and no beginning. THIS RIGHT HERE IS IT. TA-DA! Terrifying, I know. Truth found, but that doesn't mean my work is not done. It just means I'm done bullshitting with myself on the forum. Truth is a meta-truth. 

 

 

One must one day ultimately transcend this place.  Well done.  And Godspeed.

 

[TheAvatarState]

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Godspeed

You have no idea how funny this is to me

Well I know I come off as abrasive (and probably delusional) sometimes... I just want you to know that no one is more aware of my shortcomings and limitations than myself. I know that any attempt to take a hard stance on anything opens oneself up to delusion. I know there was no "point" to this thread. But I guess it was kind of interesting and exciting, and it made me contemplate these topics deeper. I went from feeling like we should shut down the subforum, to just making the trap clearer to newbies and updating the resources. I feel like Leo would be on board with that.

I wish everyone the best of luck on their journeys! And if this thread made you think a little deeper about what this forum actually is and how much it's helping/not helping you, then that alone made it worth it. I'll probably stick around for a few days, but it's definitely time for me to move on.

Oh, and never underestimate the practical benefit of contemplating the limitations of language. So many things become clear if you do. Maybe Leo should do an episode on it sometime, just as a reminder if nothing else.

[Inliytened1]

@TheAvatarState i think you summed up Oneness perfectly.   Maybe you can stick around and start a thread to help others.  Because i can clearly see that you are enlightened.  Of course paradoxically there is no such thing.

Yes I'm truly glad you started the thread.  It was a great discussion.

 

 

[TheAvatarState]

2 hours ago, QandC said:

Btw. what other forms of way do you propose to us discussing and trying to help each other through? Everything in your life can be a trap. It's about finding what actually works for yourself that's important.

Hmmm. The more I think about it, we definitely shouldn't censor questions about these things. But maybe we link them to a (new, updated) FAQ or video, and try to be mindful of not debating consciousness or leading them down the conceptualizing path. Make it abundantly clear that answers about the Absolute can only be found through direct experience. I don't know what that could look like in practice, but I feel there could be more done. 

I told people "the way it was" for the longest time, but now I'm beginning to see the wisdom in answering a newbie's questions with a question. Get them to explore, not impose a certain idea. It sounds hypocritical, but I'm changing all the time and I'm not perfect.

[TheAvatarState]

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

If someone doesn't experience, perceive and now I will add explain it the same exact way as you do is it 'false' and invalid?

No.

Did that satisfy you, or does that spawn another question?

[Ananta]

1 hour ago, TheAvatarState said:

I'll probably stick around for a few days, but it's definitely time for me to move on.

If it's time to move on, then good luck to you❤, if you decide it's not, no worries. Ppl say they are leaving here all the time and either they don't, or come back next month.

 

[TheAvatarState]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

i think you summed up Oneness perfectly.   Maybe you can stick around and start a thread to help others.  Because i can clearly see that you are enlightened.  Of course paradoxically there is no such thing.

Yes I'm truly glad you started the thread.  It was a great discussion.

 

5 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

If it's time to move on, then good luck to you❤, if you decide it's not, no worries. Ppl say they are leaving here all the time and either they don't, or come back next month.

Much Love!

[Forestluv]

@TheAvatarState I’ve enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. It opened up some new views for me? 

[TheAvatarState]

On 3/13/2020 at 4:43 PM, Milos Uzelac said:

I will just add a part that I think is a useful pointer for this real concern from Chris Hedges's Statement of Faith that refers to Scripture but I in fact think it is meant for any text:

 ''The Holy Spirit opens us up to God’s truth.  It empowers us with God’s love when we despair.  Yet it is beyond our control.  We cannot invoke it.  It comes only when we surrender ourselves and open our hearts in contrition to God.  It is only through the Holy Spirit that the scripture, written by human beings, can be rightly interpreted and the Word of God can be correctly heard and understood''.  - Chris Hedges, Statement of Faith

I actually kind of like this. The language is a little too religious for me, but it's right in that we have to literally "surrender ourselves" (give up the lower-case self) to open our hearts. Love can only enter in the absence of fear and self-identification, so your identity must be expanded greatly. Chris is also right that any written phrase can only be rightly interpreted by gaining the proper body of experience, or in this case a raise in consciousness. The core of every major religion *at conception* is mysticism and nonduality, and I think it's fascinating that there are still high-consciousness remnants in all major texts despite millennia of distortions. 

[SOUL]

16 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Before we could go further , we have to first assume the Absolute is objective.  Otherwise the whole conversation is void.  Agreed?   So let's make sure we clarify that - the Absolute is the Absolute because it is not the relative.

Now, that being said - Leo and the mods definitely make a subjective call to lock threads or ban users.   As for the locking of threads - it is a subjective call based on the post.  The title of a post such as God is not the Absolute is clearly not what is the Absolute - as the Absolute is Infinity and God is Infinity.  This is something one can become directly conscious of and it is not subjective.  Mystical states of consciousness are not subjective.

This is something that can't be proven because Truth is prior to proof.

 

 

This is a perfect example of what I am pointing to. The absolute isn't objective, you are creating a separation between 'relative' and 'absolute' from a dualism mindset. In my experience and perception of 'absolute' it is neither objective or subjective.

Objective and subjective are qualities of the manifest and the absolute actually has qualities of it's own I couldn't even begin to explain to someone who still has a perspective based on separation in dualism without them transcending that in awareness.

Absolute and manifest are not separate, they are in holistic unity in a way that one can perceive in awareness if one transcends the perspective of separation. How we perceive and interpret this any and all of this is subjective...even if it were something objective we are perceiving.

Should I now say your awakening isn't complete? Am I to say your perception is 'false'? Does your expression need to be censored because it is misleading? Or mine? Since you refused to answer the simple question and instead answer for Leo by suggesting his perspective is law here, it is what is 'absolute truth' and oh by the way, you 'validate' it, too.

You can try to claim that 'direct experience', being 'directly conscious' or 'mystical states' are 'objective' to employ an authority to your...and Leo's perspective but it's a self anointed one. You are suggesting that your(and Leo's which you are validating) experience and perspective is the truth for everyone so if they don't agree, theirs is false.

There are many perceptions, interpretations, expressions  and explanations that happen and everyone of us trust that our experience of them are what is, what is true and therefor they are our 'truth' but that doesn't make them everyone's truth.

At least @TheAvatarState says we are all deluded so our perspective isn't in pure clarity to perceive what is as it is. This is accepting the diversity of expression.

 

[TheAvatarState]

4 hours ago, SOUL said:

we are all deluded so our perspective isn't in pure clarity to perceive what is as it is

Yes. AND the opposite is also true: all perspective is perfect clarity because it is that which is the case. We live in a strange loop, so how could it be any other way? Just because you shed a layer of thought does not mean you are any more "truthful" in respect to the infinite onion.

The duality of "truth" and "falsehood" also must collapse at some point. All becomes "truth," and the "varrying degrees of truth-ness" which you used to believe in becomes completely meaningless. That doesn't mean pursing Truth no longer becomes practical to your raising of consciousness or survival... of course it does! 

No matter what we perceive, no matter how much mental baggage we've shed or how many layers we've transcended... it's just a perspective. We can have a taste of infinity and intuit that what we are is infinity, BUT, it is not the whole of infinity. It can't be. You've never become conscious of the fire ant 500 miles away, or the alien 500 light years away. It's nothing more than a peek/peak.

I believe that Leo is wrong here. Truth is subjective. Leo's Truth of 30+ facets of awakening is much broader and deeper than nearly anyone else's. But has he realized yet that he can expand that to 1 million facets if he had a long enough life? His Truth is different from everyone else's, just like you said. Truth cannot be explicated. It's all pointing to the same realization(s), but everyone has a slightly different expression and breadth of understanding. If you understand infinity to the quadrillionth decimal place, you're no closer to understanding it than if you stopped at the hundredth decimal. 

Truth being subjective does not mean that awakening or spirituality is bullshit. It's highly practical and it'll transform your life. There seems to be a set way that this specific "reality" operates. It's fucking difficult! Let's be real, if I could have made it any other way I would have!  However, I'm done fooling myself into thinking that I "know it all." This reality is one of an infinite number, all with different laws of physics, truths, metaphysics, beings, etc.

BTW I'm open to being wrong on everything I just said. It just feels right to say at my current understanding. It would be wrong not to publish it.

[TheAvatarState]

@SOUL The same "realization" can take a million different forms in one's direct experience. This is because the "realization" is of an infinity quality. 

[SOUL]

38 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

The duality of "truth" and "falsehood" also must collapse at some point. All becomes "truth,"

I don't really see that much benefit in the exercise of explaining the inexplicable because it is why I question how any one person can suggest they are the arbiter and authority on 'absolute truth'. We all have our own experience and expression of it.

Although I pulled out this one comment because I can use it to illustrate what I see is the issue with someone trying to arbiter 'truth'. True and false are just part of the mind's imaginary binary around how it tries to frame 'what is'.

'All' is what is, it's not truth, it's what is. What we say about it can be true or false but that is just a representation of what is and a part of the all that is what is but absolute transcends true and false.

[TheAvatarState]

57 minutes ago, SOUL said:

I don't really see that much benefit in the exercise of explaining the inexplicable

I'm with you. There's no benefit at all. That's really the essence of this thread I started. 

58 minutes ago, SOUL said:

I question how any one person can suggest they are the arbiter and authority on 'absolute truth'.

Yes. You are the Truth. There's no other authority to turn to, for you are it.

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

True and false are just part of the mind's imaginary binary around how it tries to frame 'what is'.

'All' is what is, it's not truth, it's what is. What we say about it can be true or false but that is just a representation of what is and a part of the all that is what is but absolute transcends true and false.

What I've come to realize is that the Absolute cannot be pointed to or expressed. It transcends anything "you" can do or say about it. It's a meta-truth of sorts. You shouldn't get caught up in the words I'm saying, for they are NOT it, and these words really only make sense to me because of my body of experience. Any words can easily be misinterpreted. Picked apart. Judged. I believe we are on the same page, but a lot gets lost in translation.

[SOUL]

30 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

Yes. You are the Truth. There's no other authority to turn to, for you are it.

It seems you are conflating personal truth and universal truth. We have our experience, the perception of it that we trust it is what it is and live according to it, this is a personal truth. Although, I cannot say my personal truth is your truth or anyone else's truth because we all have our personal truth.

I guess we can say that we try to align our personal truth with the universal truth but... delusion. Also, universal truth isn't absolute because absolute transcends 'truth', universal truth is 'what is' but absolute isn't limited to what is universal truth, it's 'what is' encompasses more than just universal truth.

Edited March 17, 2020 by SOUL