This Forum (what it actually is)

[TheAvatarState]

Forum. n. 

a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. 

 

There are many types of forums on pretty much every subject available. They can be helpful... you may even make "friends" or learn a lot about a particular subject. But the subject matter of nearly every forum is relative, and I don't necessarily mean grounded in physicality. You can have philosophy forums about IDEAS. But the common thread of a forum is that it's centered around a construct of the human mind, whether it be cars, psychedelics, cooking, or abstract concepts. 

This sub-Forum, however, has a subject matter of an entirely new quality. This is a rare forum that is centered around consciousness, enlightenment, and nonduality, and these happen to be the absolute. THE nature of existence! METAphysics! Strange loops! 

So why is this important? Well, I have noticed some things by participating in the forum for a couple years or so. I've noticed that everything this forum claims to be about is not being served by the forum itself. It is NOT an aid to your development in these topics; in fact, it's a trap that only a few of you can see. This is not a fault of the people on the forum, but rather a fault of the forum system itself. A forum is limited by the dualistic medium of the English language, which cannot in any shape or form grasp the absolute. The purpose of a forum is to share information and help others to learn, but it's just a fact that you can't learn the absolute. The vehicle of "words" only communicates with respect to your body of experience. You can't communicate the color blue to a blind man any more than you can communicate consciousness and nonduality to a seeker. 

So what ends up happening is that many non-awake people get lost in the words on this forum, and create vortexes of meaning (traps) for other seekers. The delusion swirls around. The idea of coming to a forum to debate consciousness is absurd! And yet here we are, thinking we are growing by essentially mentally masturbating. You're talking with yourself, thinking you are "helping others see the light." You and I come here because we are like-minded, and maybe we don't have anyone else in our lives to talk about this stuff with. I get it. I honestly think the rest of the forum is pretty great. However, when it comes to nonduality itself, anything that can be said about it is already stepping in the wrong direction. Truly, that is the case.

You know what would happen if a bunch of enlightened masters had a forum only for discussing the absolute? They would shut it down, knowing that all answers can only be found within. If the only thing to be said about consciousness and nonduality is to NOT get lost in thoughts, words, and concepts, then what the fuck is this sub-Forum here for? Trip reports? Again, more mental masturbation about something that can't be explained. Did anyone here gain a deeper understanding of their trip from someone else on this forum? I didn't think so. 

In this field, language can only be used as far as a tool to circle around on itself, and make the logical brain submit to the actual uselessness of language and thought in pursuing awakening. In a moment of implicit understanding, the "aha!," you will understand that this entire endeavor was a distraction. You wasted so much time on this forum, time you could have spent doing the work or finding real-life, like-minded friends and mystical experiences. The goal of this particular forum should be to render the forum useless. 

Of course this brings into question why it exists in the first place. Does anyone need this roundabout path? What if this sub-Forum was changed to a few pages of recourses instead, with a description of why an interactive forum on these topics only creates more delusion? What if we stopped debating consciousness and saved others and ourselves from further distraction? What if the forum evolved?

For the record, I think the forums on life purpose, relationships, government, spiral Dynamics, etc. are great, as these are relative topics. This site must continue to be a high consciousness beacon of hope. But I think it's time to reconsider how we treat certain topics that transcend logic, reason, and even words themselves. If anyone can log in and be the pointer, then what message is that sending to newcomers and seekers?

 

[Preety_India]

8 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

. You can't communicate the color blue to a blind man any more than you can communicate consciousness and nonduality to a seeker. 

 

8 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

You wasted so much time on this forum, time you could have spent doing the work or finding real-life, like-minded friends and mystical experiences. The goal of this particular forum should be to render the forum useless

 

9 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

If the only thing to be said about consciousness and nonduality is to NOT get lost in thoughts, words, and concepts, then what the fuck is this sub-Forum here for? Trip reports?

I find these 3 statements contradictory. 

 

[TheAvatarState]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

I find these 3 statements contradictory.

How so? Only 2 statements can be contradictory, so if there's 3 then there's a more complex relationship going on. I find them agreeable, because they're basically saying that the subject matter of this forum fundamentally can't be communicated. 

[ivankiss]

It's up to each and every one of us to choose for ourselves what seems to be relevant to us to absorb/accept/adopt.

I enjoy posting here. I find joy in expressing what I became conscious of. I feel like this forum should be exactly as it is. Diverse and contradictory. It gives the readers an opportunity to think for themselves and do their own investigation instead of just following blindly.

No one will do the "practical" part for you. All you have here is pointers. It's up to you to decide which steps you're going to actually take.

 

[Preety_India]

8 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

How so? Only 2 statements can be contradictory, so if there's 3 then there's a more complex relationship going on. I find them agreeable, because they're basically saying that the subject matter of this forum fundamentally can't be communicated. 

People have the freedom, opportunity and the right to discuss even if the ideas can't be communicated. That's how they want to be interested. And it's not all that all of the time. Sometimes people come up with doubts and views that can be harmful to their growth or stifling their growth and these views need to be unpacked. Thats what's gets done here. It's not always discussion of concepts but also correction of wrong ideas. 

People can always choose if they want to just waste their time thinking about consciousness or actually try to work on it practically. This goes without saying. 

Some people are confused about consciousness. They get their doubts cleared about concepts. 

So overall I think this subforum is very useful no matter how difficult it is to communicate complex ideas. 

[Inliytened1]

@TheAvatarState great post.  I have contemplated this often.  

 Too much talk even if its as deep as it can get on the nature of reality - can confuse new seekers more than help.  Yet as you say - here we are - 

Ide say this - if the guy from the 10th ox herding pic were alive today and had access to the internet i think he would freely be speaking of Truth to those who listened.  But also he would say that ultimately all words and concept must be transcended into Being/Actuality.  Thus balance is everything.    Knowing is second order to Being.

 

[The Lucid Dreamer]

You’re right. It’s mental masturbation.

But hey, God masturbates all the time. 

[TheAvatarState]

10 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Some people are confused about consciousness. They get their doubts cleared about concepts. 

So overall I think this subforum is very useful no matter how difficult it is to communicate complex ideas. 

I understand you, as it is a perspective I shared for a long time. 

However, I have recently come to a new understanding, and the message above is meant for you to challenge old beliefs. It was difficult because I realized that part of my identity is tied to this forum. I sometimes enjoy talking about nonduality and consciousness, but I was able to get a bird's eye view. I saw that talking about these things wasn't helping me, nor had it ever helped me or anyone else. 

Consider this: how can you "correct" bad concepts with another concept? It is just more belief, more story. That you created. And this can be helpful for RELATIVE topics, because you can learn more about them from different perspectives. But the absolute cannot be learned or taught, nor can it be viewed from a particular perspective. It transcends perspective! 

The illusion is that you are learning from others when they try to tell you what IT is. The illusion is that you are helping others when you "correct" their deluded perspectives with more words. It's all a game. Oh it FEELS like you're growing, but all it is is more story for the ego to latch on to. It loves a good story. It loves conceptualizing. It wants to make MORE sense of something that cannot be made sense of. It tries and tries and tries, never satisfied, until one day you realize it was all a game. Words don't mean anything unless you have the body of experience to understand, but at that point you don't need it. The only thing to communicate is that communication can never grasp IT or lead you closer to IT. In fact, it pulls you away from IT.

It's helpful to point towards new methods or experiences. It's helpful point out the limitations of language. These are relative matters, so it works. 

 

[TheAvatarState]

38 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Ide say this - if the guy from the 10th ox herding pic were alive today and had access to the internet i think he would freely be speaking Truth to those who listened.  But also he would say that ultimately all words and concept must be transcended into Being/Actuality.  Thus balance is everything.    Knowing is second order to Being.

 

I don't think this is true. The 10th ox herding person is fully present, and goes into the village tavern and belly laughs and shows everyone else a good time. He doesn't need anyone else to be enlightened. He doesn't shout at the crowd to get woke... In fact, he doesn't mention his awakening at all. Why is this the picture the Ox herding book paints? 

I can really appreciate Leo's work. First I awakened through psychedelics, contemplation, etc, THEN I found Leo's channel. It helped ground me in my understanding and deepen it, but it would have meant absolutely nothing if I hadn't already been on the path. But notice that his videos accomplish something special that this forum does not. He takes special care to avoid the traps. He says over and over again about the need to transcend words and concepts. That everything being said is not truth, only a pointer. DO THE WORK. And there's no debate. 

The structure of a forum does not lend itself well to discussing Truth. Anyone can log in and throw their ideas around, and any attempt to correct these ideas just created more story. What I'm suggesting is that there should be no forum posts about consciousness, nonduality, enlightenment, etc, because any attempt is already a step removed. Instead, there should be a carefully groomed resources section and several warnings on trying to conceptualize this stuff. There don't need to be discussions on it.  

[Preety_India]

17 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

The illusion is that you are learning from others when they try to tell you what IT is. The illusion is that you are helping others when you "correct" their deluded perspectives with more words. It's all a game. Oh it FEELS like you're growing, but all it is is more story for the ego to latch on to. It loves a good story. It loves conceptualizing. It wants to make MORE sense of something that cannot be made sense of. It tries and tries and tries, never satisfied, until one day you realize it was all a game. Words don't mean anything unless you have the body of experience to understand, but at that point you don't need it. The only thing to communicate is that communication can never grasp IT or lead you closer to IT. In fact, it pulls you away from IT.

I understand your perspective. You mean to say that it's a process of realization that is achieved by the person on his own and it cannot be taught and hence cannot be communicated. 

Yes I can see how futile it is when the person cannot experience it on their own. 

The best way to tell a person is to say to them "experience on your own for your own." 

 

[Grateful Dead]

You can make of this place whatever you want.

I come for interesting ideas and to motivate myself.

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

I don't think this is true. The 10th ox herding person is fully present, and goes into the village tavern and belly laughs and shows everyone else a good time. He doesn't need anyone else to be enlightened. He doesn't shout at the crowd to get woke... In fact, he doesn't mention his awakening at all. Why is this the picture the Ox herding book paints? 

I can really appreciate Leo's work. First I awakened through psychedelics, contemplation, etc, THEN I found Leo's channel. It helped ground me in my understanding and deepen it, but it would have meant absolutely nothing if I hadn't already been on the path. But notice that his videos accomplish something special that this forum does not. He takes special care to avoid the traps. He says over and over again about the need to transcend words and concepts. That everything being said is not truth, only a pointer. DO THE WORK. And there's no debate. 

The structure of a forum does not lend itself well to discussing Truth. Anyone can log in and throw their ideas around, and any attempt to correct these ideas just created more story. What I'm suggesting is that there should be no forum posts about consciousness, nonduality, enlightenment, etc, because any attempt is already a step removed. Instead, there should be a carefully groomed resources section and several warnings on trying to conceptualize this stuff. There don't need to be discussions on it.  

I don't disagree - because it is an open public forum.  But yet shutting the subforum down might be adding too much restriction as in if one person awakens from it than it is was worth it.    I'm saying if someone asked him he wouldn't be restricted to not answer.  Other people may also answer - and ultimately the seeker needs to find his own way.     But he would not push it on anyone - because nothing needs to be done.  

[ivankiss]

@acidgoofy Right on.

[TheAvatarState]

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I understand your perspective. You mean to say that it's a process of realization that is achieved by the person on his own and it cannot be taught and hence cannot be communicated. 

Yes I can see how futile it is when the person cannot experience it on their own. 

The best way to tell a person is to say to them "experience on your own for your own." 

 

Yes. ? And this forum should be a tool for people to do just that. Getting lost debating concepts of time, infinity, God, etc. does not help towards that cause. Imagine if all newcomers knew right off the bat that thought and concept was a trap? Because this is a forum, they come here with questions, seeking answers on topics that can't be answered through words, yet we encourage them anyway. It's the experience that brings meaning to the words, not the other way around. 

[TheAvatarState]

23 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I don't disagree - because it is an open public forum.  But yet shutting the subforum down might be adding too much restriction as in if one person awakens from it than it is was worth it.    I'm saying if someone asked him he wouldn't be restricted to not answer.  Other people may also answer - and ultimately the seeker needs to find his own way.     But he would not push it on anyone - because nothing needs to be done.  

I had this bird's eye realization, and it's still clear. The forum has never awakened anyone, nor will it ever. It has, however, led many people astray and wasted a lot of people's time. Again, just when discussing the absolute, awakening, nonduality, etc. 

You have to ask yourself, "What is the purpose of this sub-Forum? What is the mission of actualized.org?" I think we can all agree that it is to awaken and raise consciousness. If that is indeed the case, then this forum must cut off its arm, so to speak, to maintain the integrity of the whole. There's nothing to discuss on the subject. Any story leads you further from the realization that you are God. Any attempt to communicate to someone who is not already awakened just leads to more story. The uselessness, no, delusion, of this part of the forum is palpable. 

Delusion happens everywhere. People wanna masturbate, I get it. But maybe we should consider that this might not be a good place or set of topics to do it. Genuine people come here and leave more confused than when they left. I was one of them. It's not aligned with the mission of actualized.org, and I felt like I needed to speak up. 

[mandyjw]

Insight and knowledge is a necessary part of this beyond and including it all, Understanding. If someone has the slightest opening in a debate it can sometimes mean that they are on the edge of a major realization. I came here and started to read and post heavily a year ago, I had followed and loved Leo's videos for years and really disagreed with where he was going and came here basically to protest and debate. I thought a lot of people were really wasting their time here. Lots of strange things came together and I awakened on the forum, a month of two after that. Was not expecting that. 

You have some really valid points, it IS a trap, and nothing can be said however, it's so utterly paradoxical and counter intuitive that maybe the trap is the way.  Your own intuition and feeling is what will lead you to what you seek. God works in mysterious ways. 

[mandyjw]

15 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

The forum has never awakened anyone, nor will it ever.

Oooo... that was coincidental timing. 

[TheAvatarState]

12 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Lots of strange things came together and I awakened on the forum, a month of two after that. Was not expecting that. 

That sounds very interesting, please tell me more 

I'm curious what was communicated that brought about an awakening, because I have never heard of such a thing. 

[mandyjw]

@TheAvatarState It was the "result" of a LOT of communication over time, put together with realizations, insights and discoveries in "real life". Feel free to PM me if you want more details than that. 

In the end anything we did, saw, spoke, heard or realized is One and lead to or triggered an awakening or is leading there. The timeline is ultimately irrelevant.  Yet this forum is a good place to look for remaining puzzle pieces. One important discovery was that I found that in my attempt at teaching others what I thought I already knew, I was able to see that I didn't really know at all. The participation aspect and the willingness to be wrong was key. 

[tedens]

@TheAvatarState Is it better for the consciousness to discuss it or impose specific perspectives on someone?