How do you Justify consuming Animal Products?

[Roy]

15 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I am not interested in engaging with you about carnism

If YOU were paying attention you'd realize I never elaborated or put forth any position or argument about carnism.

My first post was literally a statement that, "Humans who eat meat exist. Accept their existence." That was it.

Your reaction was to project a conclusion onto me that I think it's ok that animals are slaughtered for food, then implied "people like me" support slavery and don't like black people ------------> Like I said, you're an emotional troll, or at the very least you behave like one.

19 hours ago, Scholar said:

I guess slavery was ended by having accepted and shown compassion towards the slavors?

You have a very unrealistic view on how consciousness is developing in the collective. Veganism is on the rise, it is becoming more and more self-evident to more and more people. And before you know it people like you will seem as biggoted as the common racist who says that the "negros" need to be put back into their place.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Roy

[tenta]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Engaging in these thoughts stories, debates and demanding “proof” against one’s view is a distraction. It protects one’s attachment and identity.

The question you need to ask is if you want to expand your capacity for empathy and love. If you answer “yes”, you will need to surrender and let go of some beliefs to allow this expansion. This will be uncomfortable at times. If you answer “no” then you will stay within a contraction and continue to debate and argue with others to protect and maintain that contracted belief construct.  

If I enter your contracted realm of debate, it will only serve to re-enforce that contraction. You are showing no signs of curiosity, openness or willingness to expand. 

By going vegan, even if I am not given evidence that one person going vegan prevents cruelty, that would be expanding and being more open? I am just asking you questions and pointed out that your analogies are biased

You can expand your empathy, but if you aren't finding evidence a method is effective then question it

[Harikrishnan]

Just like to share a simple picture that answer here perfectly 

[tenta]

Just now, Roy said:

If YOU were paying attention you'd realize I never elaborated or put forth any position or argument about carnism.

My first post was literally a statement that, "Humans who eat meat exist. Accept their existence." That was it.

Your reaction was to project a conclusion onto me that I think it's ok that animals are slaughtered for food, then implied "people like me" support slavery and don't like black people ------------>

If you're saying eating meat is bad, but just want to accept it, his slavery analogy is not false because the same argument could be said about slavery.

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, tenta said:

By going vegan, even if I am not given evidence that one person going vegan prevents cruelty, that would be expanding and being more open? I am just asking you questions and pointed out that your analogies are biased.

You just answered “no” to my question, which is fine. Each of us is where we are at.

(and I never said you need to go vegan to be open and expand. You are adding stuff in. I’m not even vegan for goodness sake.)

[Chakra Lion]

@tenta 1 person walks into the store. Every week they buy 2 lbs of beef. Lets say that 100 lbs a year. Thats a conservative and realistic number if you combine that into the total amount of animal products for the entire week. 

100lbs of beef a year = 1/4 of a cow

That Cow drinks 30 gallons of water / eats 100 pounds of food every day = 10,950 gallons a year / 36,000 lbs a year 

It takes 36 months before a Beef Cow is slaughtered. = 32,850 gallons per cow / 108,000 lbs per cow

So consuming 100 lbs of beef per year is costing = 8,212 gallons of water / 27,000 lbs of food

Imagine the amount of Methane and CO2 produced from the Cows and transportation. The destruction of waste runoff or deforestation.

Especially on a planet where 1 in 9 goes to bed hungry and 1 in 10 don't have clean drinking water. Animals are like the Middle Man we don't need.

And sure it might take more than 1 person to truly change the production, but that shouldn't be a reason to say its pointless or not try.

If 4 people stop consuming those 2 lbs of beef per week, 1 less cow was consumed. 400 people stop, now you are making impacts. 

My Grandpa was a Nazi. It wouldn't have made a difference if he stood up against it. He would have gotten killed. If the whole town stood up, they would have been killed. Thankfully we can stand up to this topic one by one without risking our life.

 

[tenta]

49 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

You just answered “no” to my question, which is fine. Each of us is where we are at.

(and I never said you need to go vegan to be open and expand. You are adding stuff in. I’m not even vegan for goodness sake.)

I asked you if me questioning a method (going vegan) means I am not open to expanding and being more open, then you say to this that this means I'm not

[Forestluv]

36 minutes ago, tenta said:

I asked you if me questioning a method (going vegan) means I am not open to expanding and being more open, then you say to this that this means I'm not

It's not the question itself. It is the orientation. A question can be asked with an open orientation or a closed orientation. When a question is asked with an open orientation, the person is curious, explores and grows. When the same question is asked with a closed orientation, the person debates/argues to protect and maintain a position they are attached to. 

From my POV, you have a closed orientation toward debating/arguing a pre-conceived position. That's just my perception. Others might consider you to have an open orientation. 

[Harikrishnan]

1 hour ago, Harikrishnan said:

Just like to share a simple picture that answer here perfectly 

Did anybody notice what Ramana maharshi is sitting on. Dont u think its animal violence ?

Edited March 10, 2020 by Harikrishnan

[Chakra Lion]

@Harikrishnan Oh fine you win! A holy man back in 1900’s is sitting on a dead animal. Totally changed my perspective about the mass slaughter of beings and current destruction of Mother Earth happening in 2020.

Since historic pictures justify current behavior, let me just google ‘lynching’...

[remember]

although i must confess i understand sometimes why vegans oftentimes are perceived as having a rather radical position. if really talking about the cruelty and implication of what “killing“ means it must seem radical from the killers mind. it’s not open enough to accept killing, its not accepting enough torture, its not accepting enough hate, its not accepting enough, it’s much too radical in its no, its much to life neglecting.

look exactly on what he sits - he sits on a killer. i guess that’s radical. for me he says with this, it’s ok if i can meditate on that, you can aswell.

Edited March 10, 2020 by remember

[Chakra Lion]

Imagine buying your food this way.

[B_Naz]

I just bought a ton of meatless mince/ground meat, has soya beans and other stuff in it

It's a shame that I can't buy it at my local market, but I can order them, so that's cool

I still eat meat but, slowly cutting away  

[Roy]

People need to be more like Chakra Lion. He came into this thread with certain perceptions, ideas, and beliefs, and has ended with a stronger mind and higher tolerance.

It's that kind of open-mindedness and willingness to change that Leo advocates. Way too many people even in this community bullshit themselves and don't do the work. They just pay lip service and fall into self-deception.

My hat is off to you mate.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Roy

[Harikrishnan]

8 hours ago, Chakra Lion said:

@Harikrishnan Oh fine you win! A holy man back in 1900’s is sitting on a dead animal. Totally changed my perspective about the mass slaughter of beings and current destruction of Mother Earth happening in 2020.

Since historic pictures justify current behavior, let me just google ‘lynching’...

Cool down vegan, dont attach to much. These is not about winning. Somebody here mentioned about Ramana Maharshi in comment thats why i put it here.  There was a good reply by Serotoninluv which i think he hided.

B/w this is a good valuable discussion. There are lot of good points put forth by vegans/vegetarians  that makes me rethink about my own eating of meat lately. I think i eat meat when iam most low conscious from resturants during parties and all keeping up with friends. I have to rethink about it. Thank you for some good documentaries to.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Harikrishnan

[LfcCharlie4]

@Harikrishnan Yeah I posted Ramana, and yeah he's probably sitting on that as some sort of message, as he's next to a westerner, although I don't know the origins of that exact photo. 

However, the Buddha also had a similar situation, where a piece of meat landed on his disciple's plate randomly, and despite the Buddha teaching against animal slaughtering for food in that scenario, he allowed it as he didn't want the Monk to reject what the Universe had given him. 

To me, I see unless you HAVE to eat meat, there is no need to, it is an act of killing another sentient being for your pleasure. It is not in accordance with the teaching of Non-Violence, or realizing The Self is ALL, so why would you want to harm another being unless you HAD to? 

There are countless examples of great sages being vegetarian- Buddha, Ramana, Sadhguru, Francis Lucille, Rupert Spira etc 

I already quoted Ramana so won't do so again, there would've been a reason he sat on that, his whole life was dedication to the practice of Non-Violence and Equality for all sentient beings

Like I said I even disagree with my own teachers on this who I am constantly recommending on here, to me consuming animal products is not in line with expressing this understanding, it's not to say you can't be an awakened meat-eater, of course you can, I just think there really is ZERO need to consume animal products in 2020 unless you have reasons you can't be healthy on a plant-based diet. 

[Identity]

On 8-3-2020 at 11:26 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Imagine if AI robots arose that ate humans for energy. The robots don’t need to eat humans for energy, yet they like the crunching sound human bones make when eaten. The robots then create massive concentration camps in which humans suffer. 

How would humans react to this scenario? . . . This highlights how human-centric and self-biased humans are. 

Daym, that puts my self-bias into a different light ?

[Shadowraix]

I don't justify it. I know the meat industry is awful. I know the damage I am causing. I'm just too selfish to give it up. I would say finances would make it hard for me but I've never done the research to prove that. I've thought about living off Leo's vegetable Stew. 

I have an ego. I have gained more control over the mechanisms, but it's not perfect. I'm ok to admit that. I'm not going to run in circles and pretend I think I'm promoting a world I want to live in. Honesty is the first step. 

[Harikrishnan]

4 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@Harikrishnan Yeah I posted Ramana, and yeah he's probably sitting on that as some sort of message, as he's next to a westerner, although I don't know the origins of that exact photo. 

However, the Buddha also had a similar situation, where a piece of meat landed on his disciple's plate randomly, and despite the Buddha teaching against animal slaughtering for food in that scenario, he allowed it as he didn't want the Monk to reject what the Universe had given him. 

To me, I see unless you HAVE to eat meat, there is no need to, it is an act of killing another sentient being for your pleasure. It is not in accordance with the teaching of Non-Violence, or realizing The Self is ALL, so why would you want to harm another being unless you HAD to? 

There are countless examples of great sages being vegetarian- Buddha, Ramana, Sadhguru, Francis Lucille, Rupert Spira etc 

I already quoted Ramana so won't do so again, there would've been a reason he sat on that, his whole life was dedication to the practice of Non-Violence and Equality for all sentient beings

Like I said I even disagree with my own teachers on this who I am constantly recommending on here, to me consuming animal products is not in line with expressing this understanding, it's not to say you can't be an awakened meat-eater, of course you can, I just think there really is ZERO need to consume animal products in 2020 unless you have reasons you can't be healthy on a plant-based diet. 

I have read somewhere i think it was from osho's book, budha died coz of food poison and it was after consuming pork. A family gave him pork and he knew it was poisonous but eat it anyway while saying to family dont eat it and bury rest of the food. Buddhist say food was not pork but mushroom. If budha had eat the pork, its fine there is no problem like he is accepting everything as it is and is not rejecting anything. 

I eat meat sometimes like twice or thrice a month, i wish to be a vegetarian in the future. My starting of eating meat is a bit cultural, in India meat eaters are not considered spiritual and high caste people dont eat meat,  i felt it like brahamnical order, so i wanted to question that. They preach and make fun of people eating meat. I feel same with vegan's. I thought about this today of what if i be a vegan and immediate thing that came to my mind was i won't preach anyone or make fun of anyone or cut of anyone coz they eat meat, if i be a vegan i will be a vegan who will be able to enjoy my meal eating along with someone who eat bacon. 

And i totally agree with your zero need to consume animal product in 2020

Edited March 11, 2020 by Harikrishnan

[Scholar]

I've gone through the thread again, and on further reflection I do not think I can criticize myself too much for how I was acting in here. I think it was mostly appropriate and I hope it achieved at providing value for Stage Green and beyond, although I do recognize that I was too confrontational for Orange and, as one User said, provoked them into wanting to "poke" me. I think the cartoons are fine to be honest, they are good at showcasing some of the obvious cognitive dissonance that is going on, although again, it is no surprising that they are provoking some people.

I do not see however that I was particularly dogmatic, if I look back I tried to keep the discussion about ego development, spirituality and the topics that I found were important. However, the people who criticized me did not respond to any of the information I was trying to provide.

 

On a more general note, it is interesting that whenever there is a vegan topic that it gets a lot of discussion and responses. To me it indicates that this indeed has to do with some of the identites people have attached around this controversial topic, of course for both sides of the argument. I would not say there is a lot of Second Tier thinking here, outside of the moderators.

 

And yes I realized it looks like I am just trying to stroke my back, but I hope to get feedback from some people whose opinion I value, which did not yet happen.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Scholar