How do you Justify consuming Animal Products?

[Scholar]

8 hours ago, steenadrianmr said:

@Chakra Lion

You're just like I was back in 2015 when I went vegan. Flaming the lesser souls that even dare eat meat, what the fuck is wrong with them? Gotta admit you're taking it to the next level though. You're like the white-knight of animals. Perhaps this is the wrong forum for you to do your crusade

For me the whole vegan thing lasted a month as I couldn't afford to keep it up. I'd be thrilled to start eating healthier though! Perhaps vegetarianism.

Have a great day God!

 

This one is good aswell:

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[steenadrianmr]

@Scholar Okay, LOL... Got your point there, buddy. These stickmen does seem a tad more calm though compared to the Lion guy.

 

[Scholar]

36 minutes ago, steenadrianmr said:

@Scholar Okay, LOL... Got your point there, buddy. These stickmen does seem a tad more calm though compared to the Lion guy.

 

These stickmen are calm because they are removed from reality.

 

Have the courage to watch this with true compassion. Try to be involved. Don't escape into the untouchable formlessness. Then understand why emotion and identity is appropriate for this.

 

You guys really need to become more open minded about how you deal with worldly issues and spiritual work. I am very concerned about the condition of the people in this forum. There is a dogma here that has nothing to do with spiritual mastery, the devil hijacking the path for his own purposes.

 

Again, Ken Wilbers model is very helpful here. Real Self, Actual Self, False Self. People focus too much on the Real Self here, they dismiss the development of the Actual Self. This is incomplete. Dispassion is not appropriate here.

 

 

What you guys are doing is telling Jewish Holocaust survivors that they are deluded and shouldn't be so moralistic. The fact that you cannot see how deeply egoic and absurd this is should really put up some red flags in your minds.

What you guys are doing is repressing compassion, not mastering it.

 

When a jewish holocaust survivor comes to you with his anger, you will tell him. "Yes, I understand your anger, what happened to you was terrible.", not "Don't be so judgemental you unspiritual loser, lol!".

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

@Scholar Nah man you're dogmatic about this.  You really are trying to push a belief off on people.  Jehovah's Vegan.
People come here time and time again and say that this is wrong with the forum and that is wrong with the forum, so take a break from it and when you get back maybe you'll care less.

Why do you think I am dogmatic about this?

And the reason why I am able to see more and more how many dysfunctional people are in this forum is because I took a break in the first place. It is very clear to me now.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[Scholar]

25 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

dog·ma

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

You're speaking as if you are right.  But are you?

Because a good majority of the people here seem to agree with you that eating meat is wrong, and there is really only a minority that don't agree.  I happen to be one of them, however I think that people should opt for more conscious choices, i.e. raising their own birds for eggs and whatever else - depends on if they have land to do so.

I've spoken with nutritionists about vegetarianism and veganism and they all agree that it is not as healthy of a diet as one that is supplemented with meat.

You're speaking as if there is something wrong with this forum for not everyone getting on board with similar lifestyle choices.  Or that people are less compassionate.  Well... how compassionate are you, really?  Seriously?  In comparison to others?  Do you have a compassion meter we can see?

When lab grown meat is available an affordable and deemed safe, I will eat it.  Everybody has different dietary needs.

You fail to see the underlying dynamic that I was trying to criticize. This goes beyond this very issue of veganism. It's not just people agreeing or disagreeing with this issue, it is again their whole attitude towards spirituality and individual evolution. We are getting a lot of repression, dispassion and gaslighting in this forum, this includes even many of the people here who agree with veganism. Whether or not it's most people I obviously cannot say, it was a hyperbole. It is defintiely an issue to me though.

 

I see a more underlying problem here that you seem to be unwilling to face. Your identity determines the way you use your intellect. If your identity included animals, meaning that you felt deep compassion for their suffering, you would be able to dsmantle your very own argumentation within no time at all. This is the core of your issue. Your intellect works for your identity.

"Everyone has different dietary needs! But nutritionists say a vegan diet is not as healthy! etc."

If you had true compassion for animals you would think this way:

"The general consensus of nutritionists is that the vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life, including pregancy and infancy. Even if some people might struggle with energy problems on a vegan diet, would it really be justified to continue to inflict suffering on my brothers and sisters that I so dearly love? Maybe I can find ways to somehow reduce it or overcome the health problems I face, if I truly even face these problems. Have I truly tried my best to integrate a vegan lifestyle? Maybe I can eat insects of mussels?"

If you had to eat your mother to because "everyone has different dietary needs", you arguments would change immediately.

 

Imagine I was someone who was against human trafficking, would you still be calling me dogmatic? Would you still be claiming that I was trying to force my lifestyle on others? If I claimed that I was more compassionate because I am against human trafficking, would you then proceed to challenge me on how compassionate I am? Would you come up with different excuses for why it is fine to do human trafficking?

 

There are trillions of animals that are being killed each year, the majority of which in gruesome ways. The fact that this is not a problem to you speaks volumes of how biased you are towards the minds that you call human. The fact that this is not seen and that someone who has a more evolved/expanded identity is being called dogmatic to me is pure devilry.

 

I would have to write an essay on Spiral Frankenstein Monsters, which I think is a huge phenomena in this community.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[tenta]

17 hours ago, Chakra Lion said:

Think about that some more. Do you understand supply and demand? 

Just a deflection instead of proving that not buying a product is the way to stop/change the meat industry. A store will still order the product even if you're not buying.

[karltiboleng]

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

You fail to see the underlying dynamic that I was trying to criticize. This goes beyond this very issue of veganism. It's not just people agreeing or disagreeing with this issue, it is again their whole attitude towards spirituality and individual evolution. We are getting a lot of repression, dispassion and gaslighting in this forum, this includes even many of the people here who agree with veganism. Whether or not it's most people I obviously cannot say, it was a hyperbole. It is defintiely an issue to me though.

 

I see a more underlying problem here that you seem to be unwilling to face. Your identity determines the way you use your intellect. If your identity included animals, meaning that you felt deep compassion for their suffering, you would be able to dsmantle your very own argumentation within no time at all. This is the core of your issue. Your intellect works for your identity.

"Everyone has different dietary needs! But nutritionists say a vegan diet is not as healthy! etc."

If you had true compassion for animals you would think this way:

"The general consensus of nutritionists is that the vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life, including pregancy and infancy. Even if some people might struggle with energy problems on a vegan diet, would it really be justified to continue to inflict suffering on my brothers and sisters that I so dearly love? Maybe I can find ways to somehow reduce it or overcome the health problems I face, if I truly even face these problems. Have I truly tried my best to integrate a vegan lifestyle? Maybe I can eat insects of mussels?"

If you had to eat your mother to because "everyone has different dietary needs", you arguments would change immediately.

 

Imagine I was someone who was against human trafficking, would you still be calling me dogmatic? Would you still be claiming that I was trying to force my lifestyle on others? If I claimed that I was more compassionate because I am against human trafficking, would you then proceed to challenge me on how compassionate I am? Would you come up with different excuses for why it is fine to do human trafficking?

 

There are trillions of animals that are being killed each year, the majority of which in gruesome ways. The fact that this is not a problem to you speaks volumes of how biased you are towards the minds that you call human. The fact that this is not seen and that someone who has a more evolved/expanded identity is being called dogmatic to me is pure devilry.

 

I would have to write an essay on Spiral Frankenstein Monsters, which I think is a huge phenomena in this community.

On that topic of going beyond veganism and into the realms of spirituality (and epistemology, for that matter), you are still being dogmatic. Yes, this goes for pretty much everything, and yes, that includes incredibly evil issues such as human trafficking, holocaust, slavery, etc. I know it sounds radical, but all ideology is ultimately untenable. The pre/trans fallacy is also prevalent here. You have to appreciate your underlying assumptions. Why is eating animals bad? Why is eating insects not bad? Why are eating vegetables not bad? Slavery was completely acceptable as a social system just awhile back. Today's system is just slavery manifested in different ways. 

I emphasise that I do not advocate factory farming in any way. 

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, karltiboleng said:

On that topic of going beyond veganism and into the realms of spirituality (and epistemology, for that matter), you are still being dogmatic. Yes, this goes for pretty much everything, and yes, that includes incredibly evil issues such as human trafficking, holocaust, slavery, etc. I know it sounds radical, but all ideology is ultimately untenable. The pre/trans fallacy is also prevalent here. You have to appreciate your underlying assumptions. Why is eating animals bad? Why is eating insects not bad? Why are eating vegetables not bad? Slavery was completely acceptable as a social system just awhile back. Today's system is just slavery manifested in different ways. 

I emphasise that I do not advocate factory farming in any way. 

But this is pure dogma aswell. You will not feel fine when someone enslaves you or kills your for food. You are not beyond ego, you are not beyond judgement, you are not beyond dogma and identity. What you are saying is completely redundant, and the only reason you do so is so you do not have to challenge yourself on your current Identity.

We don't go from neanderthal to enlightened Buddha or Christ. We go from red, to blue, to green, to yellow, to turquoise and beyond. We transcend and include. You are creating a False Self, you are not Authentic to where you truly are and you use other peoples experiences of the Real Self to justify the state of your False Self. You use spiritual dogma and moralistic nihilism to dismiss progress. That's literally what you are doing.

 

Abandoning slavery was progress. Abandoning human trafficking is progress. A world that is vegan is progress. This has nothing to do with the pre/trans fallacy, this has to do with pseudo-spiritual dogmatists parroting the wise words of their Guru. This is what is happening here.

 

The answer to someone who is vegan is not to call for him to repress his identity, but rather to overcome it. You do not overcome it by becoming dispassionate and selfish about the suffering of others. The reason why eating vegetables is not bad compared to animals is that A) The animals we consume eat far more plants than us and B) that there is no evidence for plants having a capacity for suffering or experience.

 

Today's system is not just slavery manifesting in different ways. This kind of relativism is hindering the progress of us as individuals and us as a collective. You do not see high level spiritual people act like this anywhere.

 

You are creating a completely delusional fantasy of what stage yellow is, and you use that fantasy to justify you selfishness. Notice how when I point out the incredible suffering of other beings, your reaction is to point out my devilry. You do not use compassion to understand the suffering and to understand the urgency to come and adopt responsiblity for it. You abandon responsibility in the name of your spiritual ideology.

 

If you define dogma this broadly it becomes completely useless as a term, because then we would recognize that dogma is a necessity for human evolution. Your definition of dogma would include the process of how you determine something to be dogmatic or not. This has nothing to do with spirituality.

[Scholar]

One of the problems I have here is that you guys have a really rule based approach to how you view developmental work.

"DOGMA BAD, IDENTITY BAD, REAL SELF IMPORTANT, EVERYTHING ELSE WASTE OF TIME, DON'T BE ATTACHED, DON'T BELIEVE IN MORALITY, BE HIGH CONSCIOUSNESS, BE YELLOW, GREEN BAD MUST TRANSITION TO YELLOW"

This is not systemic thinking, you completely forgo all nuance. The current problem in our world is that we have to bring people from orange to green, that we have to reduce stage orange nihilism and create stage green purpose and identity attachments. You cannot rush to stage yellow.

 

A Hallmark of Tier 2 is that it sees the value of each stage and goes back to integrate everything that is useful and necessary. You guys are skipping over green without ever having dived into it. Stage Green will be outrage about the animal holocaust to such a degree that it will be unbarable to know that it is even happening in your presence. It is not simply abstinence of being evil, it is the active engagement, the adoption of responsibility for the suffering you see around you. It is not making excuses, looking for hypocracies, finding justifications. It is about radical adoption of responsibility and compassion.

This is not about the position you have adopted. This is not about ideology, this is about the functionality of your mind, the way you operate, the fundamental way your emotional frameworks are reacting to information.

 

Imagine Jesus Christ knowing about the animal holocaust. Do you really think he would be here criticizing the vegans for being dogmatic? Do you think he would be a relativistic edgelord who exclaims that all morality is relative and that it is important to abandon it? Look at the bigger picture here. There is suffering and destruction in this world that is unimaginable, and your spiritual insights will not change any of that. If you limit your identity to the very body you are occupying it is effortless to be in a state of pseudo high consciousness. This is not mastery, mastery is being high consciousness in the face of terror, in the face of true threat to the ego. Not hiding in your first world where none of your actions will truly threaten your existence and your philosophies have no consequences to you whatsoever while others are experiencing hell.

 

 

I can get very passionate and I do not care about being dispassionate. It is unauthentic, I can fall into identity, make it do the work, for it's emotions fuel my actions. And when the identity is inappropriate, I can detach from it. This is what consciousness is for.

 

The dispassion is a tool for us to increase our passion. The distance a tool to increase our Love. Not to avoid the hard work.

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, tenta said:

Just a deflection instead of proving that not buying a product is the way to stop/change the meat industry. A store will still order the product even if you're not buying.

This is an individualist view that excludes a collectivist view. If I personally stop buying meat in a store, it will have a very small effect. My meat purchases might be only 0.01% of the meat sales in the grocery store (I am only 1 of 1,000 people that buy meat in this store). Obviously, if demand goes down by 0.01% it will go down. Yet I am also buying non meat-products so that demand goes up by 0.01%. As well, I am no ordering vegetarian dishes in restaurants, which means demands for meat dishes goes slightly down and vegetarian dishes goes up. I've been vegetarian for about 20 years and have noticed vegetarian dishes in restaurants keeps increasing. This is because more and more people (including myself) are asking for vegetarian options. As well, I've noticed 100% vegetarian restaurants appearing. And now, there are all sorts of meat-substitute options in grocery stores. Did I personally cause these changes by myself? No. However, I personally participated and contributed to a rising consciousness of what we eat. Both in terms of benefits to animals and benefits to the person's own health. I can't tell you how many times I've order a vegetarian dish in a restaurant and the person I'm with also orders a vegetarian dish. Or the person might make a comment like "I should probably eat less meat". I don't say anything about vegetarianism. It is a collective interaction. . . Collectively, this has an impact on demand for meat and change the meat industry. This could be positive or negative. For example, the meat industry might see the changing cultural attitudes and create a market for "cage free" meats and animal products. Or the meat industry may respond by starting a propaganda campaign that vegetarian diets are unhealthy and meat is needed to get enough protein and vitamins. I still see many people with this attitude.

Individual, social and systemic changes are all inter-related and important. At an individual level, someone might go vegetarian - this could peak the interest and curiosity of their friends and family. They could be a good example of living a healthy vegetarian lifestyle. At a systemic level, there could be investment into developing lab grown meats. Both have an impact and are inter-related. It's not like only one has an impact. 

Factory animal farming is brutal to animals. It causes a lot of pain. It's not like I'm making this up. If anyone visited a factory animal farm and saw the treatment, I don't see how anyone could perceive it as humane. To see it otherwise, one would need to be totally desensitized to the suffering of other beings or create some sort of bizarre story about how it's not really suffering because the animals don't have a sense of self. Or that animals don't really feel pain, or that they don't matter. . . The question then becomes whether a person decides to participate within this or not. The thought of "My behavior won't change anything" does not justify participating in the behavior if one finds it inconsistent with their behavior. For example, a lot of people are tortured for crimes they did not commit. I may think "My behavior won't stop the torture". Even if this is true, it doesn't mean I now have license to participate in the torture. I doesn't mean I can now send money to fund people that torture innocent people. 

[Scholar]

17 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is an individualist view that excludes a collectivist view.

 

The fundamental problem is deeper than just this issue of veganism. If the intellect was applied to any other situation, the mind would come to the same conclusion you came within seconds, absolutely effortlessly. This is the problem when your intellect protects your identity, it will at each step attempt to find reasons for it's own conclusions and be completely blindsided to that which is obviously contradicting those reasons.

It is amazing how the mind works. Your identity will determine the way you think. This kind of bias is the easiest way to point out egoic attachments. This is how we know we are not confronting Tier 2 minds.

 

Veganism is a fundamental change in the way we view ourselves, this is why it leads to so much resistance. The same reason why a racist has such a hard time accepting that other races should not be enslaved or that they are equal to them. It fundamentally changes how they view themselves, what they are. It is a grave threat to their self, as much as the animal holocaust is a great threat to the vegan, for he has expanded his identity to include animals.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[Arcangelo]

5 hours ago, Keyhole said:

@Scholar Nah man you're dogmatic about this.  You really are trying to push a belief off on people.  Jehovah's Vegan.
People come here time and time again and say that this is wrong with the forum and that is wrong with the forum, so take a break from it and when you get back maybe you'll care less.

This is so true. Every month/week someone starts a thread about veganism and all the jehova vegan witnesses come here with the holier than thou attitude.

[Scholar]

8 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

This is so true. Every month/week someone starts a thread about veganism and all the jehova vegan witnesses come here with the holier than thou attitude.

Yes, like those pesky slavery abolitionists. They ruined the party with all the complaining about black people deserving rights. Fucking vegan extremists, believing other creatures have a basic right to life without enslavement and slaughter.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[Forestluv]

25 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

Every month/week someone starts a thread about veganism and all the jehova vegan witnesses come here with the holier than thou attitude.

The attitude and the behavior of the other person is irrelevant. Look at the issue, your own personal values and ask if you are behaving according to your values. In this case, ask "How do I feel about factory animal farming? Is this something I want to contribute to?". Focusing on other people is a distraction from forming your own structure of values.

If you decide that your values mean contributing to factory animal farming, great. Own it as your personal value.. .  If you decide that your values mean not contributing to factory animal farming, great. Own it as your personal value.. . . If you have an inner conflict between personal values and personal behavior, great - then be that. . . . Focusing on the behaviors of others can be a distraction from introspecting one's own values and whether one is behaving in a way that is consistent with their values. 

With this introspection, there are many different responses a person can take. For example, after this introspection a person may decide "I am no longer willing to eat factory farmed meats. I will now only eat free range meats. This feels aligned to my values". 

If I was mistreating my pet dog and people around me brought this to my attention, I could react by saying "These people are like PETA jehova witnesses. They are so rude to shove their beliefs down my throat!!". This is a distraction from looking at one's own values and one's own behavior. It is a distraction from self reflection and asking "How has my behavior toward my dog impacted my dog? Do I want to be the type of person that contributes to harming my pet dog?" In asking this, the person may decide "Beating my pet dog allows me to release anger so I don't beat my wife and kids" and they may decide to continue abusing their dog. Or the person may realize "I'm harming my pet dog when I get angry. That isn't aligned with my values. I should look for other ways to release my anger. Perhaps rather than beating my dog when I get angry, I can go to the gym and lift weights to blow off steam. That way I'm not harming any beings". 

[B_Naz]

I justify to eat meat because I workout. I need the 9 essential amino acids at a cheap price, which plant-based foods can't provide apart from certain ones like soya. I drink soya milk everyday, but I don't have the time or education to be a full-time nutritionist.

Sure, some combinations of plant-based food like peanut butter and bread can provide me full complete proteins, but I also count my macros and have a specific limit of how much protein, carbs, and fats I need

It's easier to eat meat than to eat plants. That's why I eat meat

[Scholar]

Just released, this fits into this discussion aswell:

Make a distinction between values and views. A good way to capture the Spiral Frankensteinian Monster phenomena is to describe it as "People aware of the Spiral adopting higher value views yet not evolving towards new values". Someone at stage orange in one developmental line will use a Higher Stage View to justify not changing his values, to justify remaining at his current position.

So Orange can use Turquoise relativism to help itself reside at stage Orange. It can use that view to basically dismiss the validity of ALL further development. And this is what the Devil does, this is the Devil's purpose.

This is happening often because we create a stage orange or green view of higher stage values. We for example create a competitive version of "High Consciousness" or "Anti-dogmatism" and we actually operate them from a stage orange framework!

@B_Naz  Is a good example here, he is very honestly showing us his stage orange values. He values his personal gain and individual freedom, like working out effortlessly, over the life and suffering of other beings. Now, when we point out and call it devilry, he might use a higher stage view to justify his position. He will use Moral Relativism or Nihilism to actually justify his more primitive values. He will use talking points from the higher stages to dismiss seeing a limitation in how value-set.

Can you see how helpful it would be for him to see this dynamic taking place, but also how unlikely it is for him to see it?

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scholar

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

I justify to eat meat because I workout. I need the 9 essential amino acids at a cheap price

I add protein powder to my smoothies. I often see protein powder on sale for 50% off, and then I stock up. It is actually cheaper than meat protein and more convenient. 

[SgtPepper]

How I justify it:

1. It's healthy to eat animal products because they provide necessary nutrients such as B12, vit. D, vit. A, K2, creatine, taurine, collagen, and Omega 3s (DHA & EPA). Animal nutrients are also easier to digest.

 2. Plants are living things too, so no matter what, you will eat something that was living. 

3. Vegan diet is extremely unhealthy and individuals do experience many side effects - loss of hair, depression, anxiety, insomnia, fatigue, digestive issues, bloating, constant farting, and more. Even when the individuals has a "balanced" one.

4. It's natural for an animal to eat meat, which I am as a human being.

How do you justify hurting yourself by denying yourself essential nutrients for your vehicle? How do you justify the collateral damage caused by agricultural farming? How do you justify using laboratory supplements as your sole intake of certain vitamins?

Edited March 9, 2020 by SgtPepper

[karltiboleng]

@Scholar I dont wish to debate with you anymore.... you are just rehashing the same points over and over again. Try to see your own shortcomings, and I will do the same. Peace

[Vladz0r]

It's cheaper and more convenient, tastier, arguably contains more of the amino acids and certain minerals, and works well with diets like keto. Some of the things can be produced sustainably as well. I think the jury is still out on veganism. When I went vegan I ballooned in weight and I never ate any candy or sugar, just high fiber fruits, vegetables, low glycemic carbs.

I feel like maybe in the future I'd go like keto pescitarian at the most, and switch to consuming organic grass-fed pasteur raised produce, and lots of coconut milk, nuts, avacados, oils like olive oil, and then organic cream/cheese/etc. for my fat intake, followed by a lot of vegetables. It's just too crippling of a diet for me, especially financially, go keto and vegan. I'd drive myself insane eating nothing but this stuff all day (minus the dairy in that list). The only thing that's cheap, calorie dense, keto and vegan would be peanuts (which are awful for you), a portion of high fiber beans or split peas, and coconut milk. In fact if you exclude coconut milk and cooking oils on keto, and you're trying to go clean vegan keto, you're looking to spend like $5/day absolute minimum to meet your calorie requirements, and that's if you're eating straight up almonds all day to hit your calorie needs. If you're doing vegan non-keto, obviously it's way cheaper. Currently we spend maybe $40/week for 2 people doing mostly keto.

 
But I think if I was living on my own, I would do it, and maybe just source some good supplements to keep from dying to vitamin/mineral deficiency from veganism. Really food science is such a joke when it comes to the micronutrients and effects of plant vs. animal diets, and the ratios. We don't even know whether an 80% plant 20% animal product diet is better or worse than a 50-50 or 100-0 diet, really, in the long term.  Does adding things like green tea, honey, matcha, berries, probiotics, fish oil, and fiber to the diet balance out a diet where a quarter of your calories come from animal products?

How about organic grassfed vs. conventional? I'd like to know what the "correct" answer to this is first, so I can make my diet more closely resemble that. As for moral qualms, I have none about meating meat. I don't think I ever will.
Really though, as an example of a top diet, just copy off of the Japanese diet and habits, which are high starch, low carb, but contains a lot of probiotics in the form of miso, and seafood, and walking through the city instead of driving or going by bus as often. It has to mean something when the most overworked people on the planet are living the longest.

Japanese food pyramid thing - 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Vladz0r