How do you Justify consuming Animal Products?

[Scholar]

@Chakra Lion  Don't let yourself be gaslit by people in here. Notice that people are very selective about when they pull out the "identity is bad!" card and when they are not. If you came in here asking about whether or not you should follow your desire to murder and torture people, then trust me you would get a very different response from the same people who gave you the typical moral nihilistic attitude.

This attitude is not based in true consciousness or love, it is in most cases simply a way to easily dismiss difficult topics. Identity needs to be developed step by step, most people in here have deep shadows and repress their authentic expression in the name of their spiritual identity, in the name of the spiritual superiority. Do not seek acceptance from the people in this forum, be authentic and watch yourself.

Do you get angry at the animal holocaust? They will tell you it is a problem. Do you get angry at children being raped? They will be far more careful about how their phrase their moral nihilism.

 

The Father of Lies is the Father of Lies for a reason. He will use anything to perpetuate himself. Reason, religion, spirituality, philosophy. There is no end to it. You will have far more progress if you step into compassion and self sacrfice, into the suffering of those around you.

 

Here is a good video on the different kinds of Self:

People in here seem to be running into the problem of focusing on the Real Self, but are very dismissive of the Actual Self. The Actual Self is essential.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Scholar

[frozen_cube]

@Preety_India The future will probably look more like artificial food, where meat and animal products can just be produced in labs for cheaper and animals aren't harmed in the process. 

That's where I see it going at least.

[Forestluv]

Imagine if AI robots arose that ate humans for energy. The robots don’t need to eat humans for energy, yet they like the crunching sound human bones make when eaten. The robots then create massive concentration camps in which humans suffer. 

How would humans react to this scenario? . . . This highlights how human-centric and self-biased humans are. 

[flume]

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.

When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."

Kahlil Gibran

[Derek White]

@Serotoninluv Can’t believe you’re feeding into his moralistic thinking. If you love sentient beings so much then why don’t you wear a mask like the Jains to protect the microbes?

If you can’t get over dividing the world into right or wring, good and bad, then this work is not for you. 

This is why I don’t like when Leo uses Christian terminology, it attracts moralistic religious people. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Derek White

[flume]

Humans are living far too removed from the reality of sourcing their own food that they end up debating about things they have no idea about on the internet. This wasn’t up for discussion 100 years ago. Not because of lacking moral development but because the question answers itself if you work to produce your own food everyday. Take care of a garden and a few animals and you’ll soon find that life and death is not as clearly defined as you thought it was. You’re not above one another, you’re both serving something higher by taking care of one another.

Of course factory farming is horrific. It’s the epitome of unconsciousness. Yet the act of sourcing animal products in itself isn’t the problem, unconsciousness is the problem. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by flume

[Forestluv]

47 minutes ago, Derek White said:

@Serotoninluv Can’t believe you’re feeding into his moralistic thinking. If you love sentient beings so much then why don’t you wear a mask like the Jains to protect the microbes?

If you can’t get over dividing the world into right or wring, good and bad, then this work is not for you.  

First, microbes are not sentient beings. So that argument is irrelevant. 

Second, I stated that the view I offered was based on the assumption that suffering of sentient beings is bad and causing that suffering is unethical. From a yellow-level perspective I understand that this is a relative view, which is why I stated the assumption. As well, the pro-meat eating arguments in this thread are at an Orange level. 

If one accepts the relative claim that suffering of sentient beings is bad, it is very difficult to justify participating in the animal suffering of factory farming. If one does not accept the relative claim that suffering of sentient beings is bad, then that opens up a can of worms. . . now harvesting, suffering and eating human babies is not bad. It would be ok to raise babies in crowded cages, pump them full of drugs so their meat tastes tender, slit their throats and allow them to slowly die before we eat them. 

Either way, there is a dilemma because of the biased human-centric view. We could add in all sorts of rationalizations why humans are an exception, yet we would continually encounter human bias.

And my diet is irrelevant to the underlying truths. 

[Scholar]

56 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Imagine if AI robots arose that ate humans for energy. The robots don’t need to eat humans for energy, yet they like the crunching sound human bones make when eaten. The robots then create massive concentration camps in which humans suffer. 

How would humans react to this scenario? . . . This highlights how human-centric and self-biased humans are. 

 

26 minutes ago, flume said:

Humans are living far too removed of the reality of sourcing their own food that they end up debating about things they have no idea about on the internet. This wasn’t up for discussion 100 years ago. Not because of lacking moral development but because the question answers itself if you work to produce your own food everyday. Take care of a garden and a few animals and you’ll soon find that life and death is not as clearly defined as you thought it was. You’re not above one another, you’re both serving something higher by taking care of one another.

Of course factory farming is horrific. It’s the epitome of unconsciousness. Yet the act of sourcing animal products in itself isn’t the problem, unconsciousness is the problem. 

 

50 minutes ago, Derek White said:

@Serotoninluv Can’t believe you’re feeding into his moralistic thinking. If you love sentient beings so much then why don’t you wear a mask like the Jains to protect the microbes?

If you can’t get over dividing the world into right or wring, good and bad, then this work is not for you. 

This is why I don’t like when Leo uses Christian terminology, it attracts moralistic religious people. 

You can't believe it? Why, because you are disappointed of serotonin? Because your expectations have not been met? Because your judgement of what should be has contradicted of what is?

If your understanding of morality was not so narrow, you would understand that right now your are being moralistic. You are anything but accepting. Your are criticizing, why would you do so if you had no judgements?

The fact that you said "I don't like x" is a moral judgement.

 

 

This dynamic to me is utterly fascinating. What the Devil did was ingenius. People here do not understand the depth of the lies, the depth of the tendrils of delusion. The complete and utter ignorance it is able to induce, the blindness, the utter helplessness, it just ingenius.

This is beyond language, beyond thought. The lies start in the very way your perceive reality and yourself. They are grounded far deeper in your mind that what you are currently aware of.

The depth of morality goes to the core of your being, to go beyond it would render your inhuman in behaviour, literally. You have unpealed the most surface layer and made yourself believe it to be all the layers there are. That is the devils greatest gift. For if it believes the final layer was unveiled, it will not seek a deeper layer. It will use the deeper mechanism to achieve the very same work.

Morality is metaphysical, not merely what you label good and bad. You could never use the label of goodness and badness and be the most moralistic person in the world.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Scholar

[Osaid]

I'm starting to see everything as me now. Inflicting pain on animals is inflicting pain on yourself. Problem is, you don't even kill the animal yourself nowadays. It just comes to you packaged at the store. I can say 100% I wouldn't be eating animal products if I had to get it myself. But see, this line of supporting evil through hierarchies is everywhere. Leo's video on the devil really points this out. The phone you own and buy every year comes from child labour. By working at Mcdonald's you promote a radically unhealthy lifestyle and support consumption of meat. By working at that 9 - 5 job you help the manager to continue wage slavery, etc. etc. it goes on forever. Evil is ignorance. Now, morals have become skewed and hard to pinpoint, because evil has always been a projection of ego. This projection is fragile and only meant to sustain your egoic identity. The only way to eradicate evil is to surrender yourself to reality. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Osaid

[Derek White]

@Serotoninluv If someone is at stage green then you should help them advance to stage yellow, not confirm their biases. Leo has been criticizing morality since 2016. We should be having those deep conversations, it is a spiritual forum after all. 

13 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You can't believe it? Why, because you are disappointed of serotonin? Because your expectations have not been met? Because your judgement of what should be has contradicted of what is?

If your understanding of morality was not so narrow, you would understand that right now your are being moralistic. You are anything but accepting. Your are criticizing, why would you do so if you had no judgements?

The fact that you said "I don't like x" is a moral judgement.

@Scholar You can have values, preferences and judgements, it’s about how conscious you are that you have them and that they are not inherent to reality. Once you become more aware then you would hold them loosely and avoid the more delusional ones.

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Derek White said:

 

@Scholar You can have values, preferences and judgements, it’s about how conscious you are that you have them and that they are not inherent to reality. Once you become more aware then you would hold them loosely and avoid the more delusional ones.

Nothing is inherent to reality. These judgements are as real as the universe itself. There is no difference at all. You are still moralistic, you do not see the deeper layers.

You have created a hierarchy between what is more or less delusional, what is more or less inherent. What do you think is making that judgement? You must look far deeper, far more closely. You have to explore the subtle realm far more than this to see it.

 

It is staggering how obvious the workings of the ego can be to someone who is observing it from the outside. Read your last few posts again in the context of "You can have values, prferences and judgements, its about how conscious you are of them!". Understand that statement, which you made yourself, and then understand how you reacted to serotonin before that, how you judged him for being moralistic. How it is completely obvious and apparent to anyone here that in this case you are far less aware of your moralistic judgements and your attachments of them than he is and that you are currently trying to save the image of your ego or to avoid introspection.

Look at what you are doing.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Scholar

[remember]

@Derek White now tell me you are a vegan man... 

i thought understanding self bias was part of spiritual development. i have a spiritual challenge for you - go vegan for one year, watch everyday an animal documentary about everything you can find also about slaughtery. after one year you make an appointment for a slaughtering event where you will be the person to slaughter the animal or stay vegan forever. i would really like to know if you by then wouldn’t have changed at least into green - yellow is still far away my friend without meaning any harm to your physical body, you can’t even let your ego die.

[karltiboleng]

Hello! I would just like to add my two cents to this topic. I see so many senseless strawman arguments in this thread it's ridiculous.

Yes it's good to be vegan, but when only an individual adopts this position it doesn't really change much. It has to be a collective effort. There is plenty of evidence to show that society is slowly moving towards this direction, which is good, but I find it ultimately unsustainable. What we want to strive for is sustainable, conscious animal farming. But it takes a long time before we're there, society is still heavily reliant on factory farming for profit. I think that first we will go through a phase of increased socialism, as we can see. But then after some time we will see the limits of that and how unsustainable it is, then slowly society will inch towards a more yellow paradigm. 

We need to stop demonizing spiral dynamics, I think it happens on a subconscious level "oh this guy is so blue / orange / green, I'm so much more developed than him I'm better than him". This is a huge, huge trap and a manifestation of spiritual ego. If you adopt this very sort of thinking you are not embodying tier 2 values. Also, we need to stop using spiritual terminology to demonize others. And stop idolizing Leo and start thinking independently about his work. 

Spread love! 

[Arcangelo]

What's funny is that Chakra is all triggered by my yellowness. Calling me names and sh@t. Mods please ban him.

[Forestluv]

25 minutes ago, Derek White said:

@Serotoninluv If someone is at stage green then you should help them advance to stage yellow, not confirm their biases. Leo has been criticizing morality since 2016. We should be having those deep conversations, it is a spiritual forum after all. 

I try to help Orange up to Green and Green up to Yellow (if they desire).

I sprinkled in plenty of Yellow in my last comments and can sprinkle in some more:

This is not confirmation bias. Notice how several relative views were offered. There is the relative view that suffering of sentient beings is bad, there is the relative view that the suffering of sentient beings is not bad. As well, there are human biases I've been pointing out. which is stage Yellow. Notice how nearly all humans have a human-centric view on this issue.

Yellow has integrated and embodied Green. Thus, yellow understands the relative view of Green - and not just intellectually. Yellow has embodied and understands the green trait of empathy. Yellow will have empathy for the suffering of sentient beings and understand how other humans have empathy for the suffering of sentient beings. Yellow will integrate this into a holistic view. . . One of the dangers of Orange trying to skip green is that there will be splotches of yellow with huge green deficiencies and green shadows. 

[remember]

@karltiboleng sometimes that means to leave the comfort zone 

but in general i‘m with you.

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, karltiboleng said:

Hello! I would just like to add my two cents to this topic. I see so many senseless strawman arguments in this thread it's ridiculous.

Yes it's good to be vegan, but when only an individual adopts this position it doesn't really change much. It has to be a collective effort. There is plenty of evidence to show that society is slowly moving towards this direction, which is good, but I find it ultimately unsustainable. What we want to strive for is sustainable, conscious animal farming.

That is a point from a collectivist systems view, yet that doesn't mean the individualist view is a strawman. People don't need to eat factory farmed meat to survive. In developed countries, there are plenty of other options that are just as easy as eating factory farmed meat. I'm vegetarian and it's super easy. It's so easy to be vegetarian in the US that it doesn't even cross my mind. There are vegetarian options everywhere, it is just as convenient and isn't more expensive. 

As well, the collectivist systems view you offer assumes it is of value to continue animal farming for human consumption. We could also have a collectivist systems view that includes synthetic meat or lab grown meat. 

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, karltiboleng said:

Hello! I would just like to add my two cents to this topic. I see so many senseless strawman arguments in this thread it's ridiculous.

Yes it's good to be vegan, but when only an individual adopts this position it doesn't really change much. It has to be a collective effort. There is plenty of evidence to show that society is slowly moving towards this direction, which is good, but I find it ultimately unsustainable. What we want to strive for is sustainable, conscious animal farming. But it takes a long time before we're there, society is still heavily reliant on factory farming for profit. I think that first we will go through a phase of increased socialism, as we can see. But then after some time we will see the limits of that and how unsustainable it is, then slowly society will inch towards a more yellow paradigm. 

We need to stop demonizing spiral dynamics, I think it happens on a subconscious level "oh this guy is so blue / orange / green, I'm so much more developed than him I'm better than him". This is a huge, huge trap and a manifestation of spiritual ego. If you adopt this very sort of thinking you are not embodying tier 2 values. Also, we need to stop using spiritual terminology to demonize others. And stop idolizing Leo and start thinking independently about his work. 

Spread love! 

We are planning to have cheap lab grown meat within this decade sold at supermarkets. There will be no need to sustainable, conscious animal farming. If we simply avoided all animal products, we could easily sustain our way of living and then some. We could infact rewild current land that we use for animal farming. we could then develope better ways to farm plants, like vertical farming. Or solutions like this:

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2019/07/15/Solar-Foods-makes-protein-out-of-thin-air-This-is-the-most-environmentally-friendly-food-there-is

I don't see compelling arguments to actively grow and kill animals for food, especially not in the future, and especially not the animals we currently grow. I can't help to think you are biased, because if you were not, why would you not suggest insect farming in place of animal farming? It is far, far more sustainable, human beings are adapted to consume insects as almost all primates are and it might be a more ethical solution than killing the more complex animals.

Yet, I don't even think there are compelling arguments for that when we have things like lab grown meat around the corner.

 

Your need for there to be "higher consciousness animal farming" is to me no different than a need for "higher consciousness slavery". In a few decades this statement will look completely insane.

[remember]

thank god i went vegan before that. there will be still people demanding happy meat then.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

 

I'm not a vegan btw, I eat animal products. But there is a distinction between sustainable animal products and mercilessly slaughtered animals.