Is Leo Manipulating Us?

[S33K3R]

Yes Leo is manipulating us. Not all manipulation is bad. Not everything is black and white, with awareness you can see the big picture here.

With a systems mind you can realize how amazing this website is for so many people and society. A lot of it is free to..... Just because Leo benefits from our coming here doesn't mean he is a bad person. I benefit from coming here, we all do.....

I am still in awe at the scope of what he has created honestly. He deserves to survive, even profit significantly off of his work. We all do. Especially if that work helps the world evolve through the chaos that we have today. I hope his website gets huge! I hope he makes millions or even billions. I hope it gets bigger than Facebook. If it did think of how far one idea he had could reach. Leo gets what he deserves. Reward for hard work that helps the world more than any of us have individually. He has brought us all together here to have a very important conversation. 

 

Thanks Leo 

[LeighPC]

Three things:

1)  Leo makes some of best content on the Internet available for free.  Lots of it.

2)   People are entitled to make money off of work they do that provides value to others.  

3)    You ought to be able to trust your own powers of critical thinking and your own judgment to determine what has worth to you.  

 

[Joseph Maynor]

@askdfjnak It's the least we can do for Leo.  We're enjoying all this for free.  

[doronshadmi]

Question: Is Leo Manipulating Us?

My answer: If being manipulated means that one causes another one to do things unconsciously, then I personally do not think that Leo uses manipulations since, as much as I get it, he does his best in order to share his notions in such a way that can be criticized by others.

Here is some concrete example of disagreement between Leo and me:

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/15261-struggling-to-understand-evil/?do=findComment&comment=155439 

Also see some quote taken from

Quote

To be a part of this community, you certainly don't need to agree with me on everything. I've always encouraged you to think for yourself and never follow blindly. But you do need to agree with some of my core values like: intellectual honesty, tolerance, compassion, holism, and openmindedness. You must show a basic level of tolerance for diversity and you also need to adhere to the principle of intellectual charity when discussing the pros and cons of various nondual paths. If you don't agree with such principles, that's fine, you just have no business posting on this forum.

Please help me keep this community in line with this high standard of discourse, so it doesn't devolve into the kind of low-consciousness finger-pointing that we see all across the web.

And none of this should be taken to mean: "So Leo is always right?" No! Leo is just a guy on the web who shares ideas with you. Be very intelligent in how you understand and apply these nuanced and tricky ideas.

And none of this should be taken to mean: "Leo is saying that all teachings are identical and equally valid." No! That's obviously not the case. Some teachings are downright absurd. Use of good discernment is ALWAYS necessary. But even if a teaching is absurd, you're still not entitled to troll it or crusade against it.

Your actions always speak louder than your words. If you choose to engage in debate or crusading, that shows us exactly what your level of development is, no matter how many enlightenments you may think you've had.

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by doronshadmi

[Rosebluepaint]

Leo's videos make a strong impression on us because he has a strong style of presentation. If we follow them up by doing the work he suggests his intention is that the results become our own.

Each video is an advertisement for the subject in it, not a commercial for the (2) products on this site.

The marketing technique is to provide us with alot of valuble stuff for free. If we grow to trust and value this some of us will be happy to buy further product.

Its just like tasters at the supermarket - no one is forcing you to buy. Do we feel obliged to?  Yes and no.  Depends on how I'm feeling. If I'm not really interested I dont taste. If I am I take it that this really is a trial with no obligation.

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Rosebluepaint
Spelling.

[Thanatos13]

On 12/18/2017 at 3:19 AM, Rosebluepaint said:

Leo's videos make a strong impression on us because he has a strong style of presentation. If we follow them up by doing the work he suggests his intention is that the results become our own.

Each video is an advertisement for the subject in it, not a commercial for the (2) products on this site.

The marketing technique is to provide us with alot of valuble stuff for free. If we grow to trust and value this some of us will be happy to buy further product.

Its just like tasters at the supermarket - no one is forcing you to buy. Do we feel obliged to?  Yes and no.  Depends on how I'm feeling. If I'm not really interested I dont taste. If I am I take it that this really is a trial with no obligation.

 

It’s powerful for those who don’t look too closely to see all the flaws in each of them

[pluto]

What if we are manipulating Leo

[MisterMan]

Getting more traffic to his website can help him spread the information he so desires to create. A forum is a great way to do this, why is this manipulating you? Because you want to talk to like minded people? So he provided a place where people could discuss these things?

God knows how difficult it is to talk to most people about experiences or stuff like this. Most people are generally not interested.

[Thanatos13]

3 hours ago, MisterMan said:

Getting more traffic to his website can help him spread the information he so desires to create. A forum is a great way to do this, why is this manipulating you? Because you want to talk to like minded people? So he provided a place where people could discuss these things?

God knows how difficult it is to talk to most people about experiences or stuff like this. Most people are generally not interested.

It’s more like an echo chamber where assumptions aren’t challenged. It’s the only way spirituality survives.

[MisterMan]

You feel that this is all one big hoax?

What is your intention behind this?

I'm assuming (putting my hand up that i'm prepared to be wrong) it's you wanting the truth and feel that this forum with it's regulations creates a "safe space" where peoples idea's don't meet the critical scope you would want to see in universities.

Seems like you have an idea of how this forum/website should be. Truth is you can do all those things you want, it doesn't need to be here if you feel your thought's aren't challenged enough.

 

[Adam M]

yeah fuck @Leo Gura! That monster motivated me to begin a life-changing journey towards success and fulfilment!

[Shin]

He does.

I do.

You do.

Everybody manipulates, if they were no manipulation there wouldn't be events.

 

[BjarkeT]

The only complain i would have would be that sometimes the information is presented in a way that it seems to be the solution that this is what you should do or doesn't present it in a way where he show open minded that it could be "wrong" (or that there may be better alternatives) i don't see why he wouldn't have to show that it may be wrong because he's content are free either way and either way the information is still valuable if it's valuable without the extra "advertising" the problem with this is that if he believes it is the "solution" others may think as well and it could be a problem in case it actually isn't but otherwise i really like hes content and think it's really valuable 

Edited January 29, 2018 by BjarkeT

[MisterMan]

No one is perfect. LOL, it is not possible to be right about everything all the time especially considering that his channel is about growth which he himself confesses to. Geez talk about impossible standards.

Edited January 31, 2018 by MisterMan

[MisterMan]

On 1/29/2018 at 9:47 PM, BjarkeT said:

The only complain i would have would be that sometimes the information is presented in a way that it seems to be the solution that this is what you should do or doesn't present it in a way where he show open minded that it could be "wrong" (or that there may be better alternatives) i don't see why he wouldn't have to show that it may be wrong because he's content are free either way and either way the information is still valuable if it's valuable without the extra "advertising" the problem with this is that if he believes it is the "solution" others may think as well and it could be a problem in case it actually isn't but otherwise i really like hes content and think it's really valuable 

I think that there are a lot of things that i don't understand he says,  and a lot i do. Althought to say they are wrong, well. I simply do not know. Maybe considering all of the factors behind the nature or knowing, business, growth, teaching and learning and others related things may help illuminate this judgement/ projection to what it really is. A misunderstanding.

 

Also regarding this topic. It doesn't make much sense the more you consider about reality. Seeing as everything is a network of inter relatable relationships, manipulation loses it's punch. Firstly you assume malice from the person "manipulating", you could potentially see the same act as "helping".

For the most part i assume seeing Leo as manipulating is more a projection of your own feelings and and understandings of  the behaviors you see. As two different people can see helping and manipulating in the same act. What does this say? What does the fact that everything is a network and how does that frame the idea of  "manipulating" when you consider the context that most things by definition of affecting each other are not based on the premise of good or bad.

When it rains, wether it's good or bad is circumstantial but there is nothing inherently evil about it. To see Leo fulfilling his purpose in life, by diving into an act that helps others. You are free to make your own assumptions and judgements.

It disturbs (which i am taking note as writing this, as here is my own projection!) to see someone choose to see someone who has committed his life to personal growth and has successfully started a channel helping others change their lives. That help people en mass to find their own purpose, handing out in depth fluid 2 hour video's to help see through the illusion. Information that personally to me is invaluable. It only manipulates me through inspiring me to grow and to act by his own actions.

Personally i need to look into my own reaction to this thread. As to think someone can ignore all the good things he is doing, by...Or let me rephrase it, the way he "manipulates" me is by-

*Being a good role model (in how he presents himself in video's)

*The fact that you see his growth and hard work through what he does. Speaking so well for hours is amazing in itself.

*Helps people en mass.

I clearly have a hierarchy of values, seeing people succeed in things that i want to strive to which is being a more productive and loving person when i see someone shit on that, i must see it as shitting on my dreams and values.     Which i don't like.

Considering all this, and applying what i said at the start of the post.

"Maybe considering all of the factors behind the nature or knowing, business, growth, teaching and learning and others related things may help illuminate this judgement/ projection to what it really is. A misunderstanding."

What should i look into to gain a new persepective on this so i don't get so defensive about it?

Either way, go in peace. Or may this manipulate you to go in peace.

Edited January 31, 2018 by MisterMan

[BjarkeT]

@MisterMan why such a long post? Sorry but it would be helpful if its was shorter.

sorry but I didn't just assume. A reason why i wrote it is for example with the life purpose course vs cal newports research (cal newports is based on evidence) they both seem in a way to come up with different conclusions leos course seems more about connecting with your strengths or something similar where cal newport seems more about what can i do to become better at what i do or how can i produce more value what he calls the craftman mindset and leos course seems more similar to the passion mind set that(you just have to find your passion and then you will be happy) cal newport argues you will end up less happy with the passion mind set than with the craft man approach (most of the time) 

i still think there is a lot of valuable information in the life purpose course(that also seem similar to the craft man mindset) and leo has a lot of other valuable information but I didn't just assume i had done some research where they seemed to come up with different conclusions and thats why i wrote it and I didn't actually say that i think he is manipulating us rather that he seems less open minded that it could be wrong (this does not mean he have to be right everytime about everything just as what i wrote it means that he could be more open minded that it could be wrong) and I didn't think it needed the extra advertisement as i still think the information would be valuable just on its own

i also didn't say/write and I do not think some of the things he does is not impressive at all like the 3 things you said yourself (meaning that i do think they are impressive) 

not really sure how you came to the conclusing that i am "shi***" on what he does as i mention a lot of times that i think he still have a lot of valuable information which means i still supports what he does 

by saying "Maybe considering all of the factors behind the nature or knowing, business, growth, teaching and learning and others related things may help illuminate this judgement/ projection to what it really is. A misunderstanding." doesn't that implies that all information we know is a misunderstanding(including both cal newport and leos work)

Edited January 31, 2018 by BjarkeT

[MisterMan]

Fair enough, sorry about that.

[Thanatos13]

On 1/30/2018 at 7:34 PM, MisterMan said:

I think that there are a lot of things that i don't understand he says,  and a lot i do. Althought to say they are wrong, well. I simply do not know. Maybe considering all of the factors behind the nature or knowing, business, growth, teaching and learning and others related things may help illuminate this judgement/ projection to what it really is. A misunderstanding.

 

Also regarding this topic. It doesn't make much sense the more you consider about reality. Seeing as everything is a network of inter relatable relationships, manipulation loses it's punch. Firstly you assume malice from the person "manipulating", you could potentially see the same act as "helping".

For the most part i assume seeing Leo as manipulating is more a projection of your own feelings and and understandings of  the behaviors you see. As two different people can see helping and manipulating in the same act. What does this say? What does the fact that everything is a network and how does that frame the idea of  "manipulating" when you consider the context that most things by definition of affecting each other are not based on the premise of good or bad.

When it rains, wether it's good or bad is circumstantial but there is nothing inherently evil about it. To see Leo fulfilling his purpose in life, by diving into an act that helps others. You are free to make your own assumptions and judgements.

It disturbs (which i am taking note as writing this, as here is my own projection!) to see someone choose to see someone who has committed his life to personal growth and has successfully started a channel helping others change their lives. That help people en mass to find their own purpose, handing out in depth fluid 2 hour video's to help see through the illusion. Information that personally to me is invaluable. It only manipulates me through inspiring me to grow and to act by his own actions.

Personally i need to look into my own reaction to this thread. As to think someone can ignore all the good things he is doing, by...Or let me rephrase it, the way he "manipulates" me is by-

*Being a good role model (in how he presents himself in video's)

*The fact that you see his growth and hard work through what he does. Speaking so well for hours is amazing in itself.

*Helps people en mass.

I clearly have a hierarchy of values, seeing people succeed in things that i want to strive to which is being a more productive and loving person when i see someone shit on that, i must see it as shitting on my dreams and values.     Which i don't like.

Considering all this, and applying what i said at the start of the post.

"Maybe considering all of the factors behind the nature or knowing, business, growth, teaching and learning and others related things may help illuminate this judgement/ projection to what it really is. A misunderstanding."

What should i look into to gain a new persepective on this so i don't get so defensive about it?

Either way, go in peace. Or may this manipulate you to go in peace.

It’s not a misunderstanding, it’s an accurate assumption. 

His channel “helps” in the same way that religion helps people, it works as long as you don’t think too hard about it.

His “in depth” videos are really just him drumming on the same point over and over without any proof behind them. He contradicts himself a lot. Bear in mind that many people peddle “self improvement” the only problem is that there is no quality control. I belief most cults start with a wise and charismatic leader promising something better. 

He “appears” to know what he’s talking about, which is easy to do (politicians) do it all the time. He clearly has something against science, which explains a lot since science asks for evidence of claims (something spirituality can’t give). Before you give him credit take note of the “disclaimer” saying that whatever happens as a result of listening to him is on you, not to mention every video has a link to where you can buy stuff. I mean, he has a video of him reviewing books and you can see it by paying? Why would I pay to see someone review books? What makes his opinion so special.

His videos don’t help you see through the illusion, if there is one. They’re just trying to get you to buy his stuff. Whatever happens nexts isn’t his problem. That’s how the self help industry works. He’s just one of many. Saying there is an illusion and that he can help you see through is the oldest trick in the book (speaking of which he worked that he’s writing a book as well in the video). 

Not to mention self help is a bit of a misnomer, since if you are listening to someone else you aren’t helping yourself.

Also we are stretching the definition of manipulation too much here, or “mistaking the map for the territory” as he likes to say. 

When it comes to what he says; what is good isn’t new and what is new isn’t good. People like him prey on those who don’t know better. It’s like Eckhart Tolle who for someone who claims to be enlightened, charges 150 for a ticket to his talks. 

That’s the issue with the internet, just because you can spread information faster doesn’t make it good. And because spirituality is such a vague topic, any one can use it for their own gains and dodge criticism. 

[MisterMan]

It's an assumption none the less. Both of ours are, there is no way of truly knowing.

I just found this forum after listening to him for 2 years. Hardly an aggressive marketing strategy. The content got me here. And guess what? Most of his content is free. 

As for buying his stuff, speak for yourself as i have NEVER felt the urge to buy his stuff. Although to be honest I may in the future because i feel like a piece of shit for leeching so much and may want to give back sometime in the future.

Of course it's ON YOU. Geez take some responsibility! Isn't that what this is all about?

At the end of the day you have to assume some responsibility on the person rather than assuming that people think Leo is the only source to improving yourself..  thinking this is a result of manipulation is retarded. He is not at fault for people's behaviours.

Teachers in the east do not drone things into you, they make you think for yourself. Leo's insights and info can only go as deep as your own understanding. That is a reality, and yes. If you can't help yourself, no one else can. That speaks volumes.

Seeing anything as a manipulation is a misunderstanding. Does the sun manipulate the tree's through photosynthesis?

Like a flowing river, what is is. Each swirl, each bubble was always happen. And we are all free to make our own projections. And this comes down to personal responsibility. (I think there may be more ultimate truths than this but i don't want to let the cart pull the ox. it's a process.)

Whatever you do, however you're feeling . It's not because some one has anything over you. It is all completely in your power, you create good and evil, you create the conditions to not trust people, or trust them, to love or to hate, to be paranoid, or not to be, or even to let go.

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by MisterMan

[Aquarius]

Do you expect to get any book for free from the book store? No.

Then why do you expect other people to work hard on courses and other material just to give it away for free? Would you work for free on various projects?

The materials presented here are the results of a life-long investment, both financial and energy. Do you think this comes for free? Not to mention most of the materials presented here are free (the videos, etc.). Maybe you should stop considering business a "bad" thing, and grow up.

Besides, people following Leo blindly is the result of THEM being atached to ideals, and THEM thinking Leo is omnipotent. He never claimed to be. He is just a young man making videos, no one forced you to watch his stuff, let alone buy his stuff. Jeez.

What made you create this post?? Sounds like you're dogmatic.