Beware, most of therapists are trapped in the materialism paradigm

[Javfly33]

I'm going to the therapist currently and today I had a sort of argument (in a good mode lol not that we fought) about of self esteem and love.

I told her that if self esteem was related with self love, that you always should have high self esteem regarding if you accomplish goals or not, because love is universal in reality/universe.

She was shocked by this and ask me if that was really how reality / the world work. That that wasn't our experience as humans etc

Obviously at the end I had to give her the point because I wasn't going to have an argument with someone who hasn't ever gotten out of the conditional mind, but what do you think about this? Isn't this a concern that society has no clue about radical self-acceptance and radical righteousness regarding what you have done in life?

Overall my therapist is pretty good, I know you can't ask almost anybody to have an understanding of real unconditional love, but it kind of disappointed me too because I would like therapist which is in accordance with that I have discovered in high consciousness states. (not even talking about psychedelics, the Nathaniel's Branden book "The six pillars of self esteem" has also given me a taste of unconditional love/self esteem doing the exercises he promotes)

[HP Lovecraft]

Leo's actualized.org teachings didn't fly well with your therapist? Why am I not surprised...

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I told her that if self esteem was related with self love, that you always should have high self esteem regarding if you accomplish goals or not, because love is universal in reality/universe.

She was shocked by this and ask me if that was really how reality / the world work. That that wasn't our experience as humans etc

Lol

Next time tell her that you're God

[BETGR164128]

32 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Isn't this a concern that society has no clue about radical self-acceptance and radical righteousness regarding what you have done in life?

Thanks for commenting because this is the main thing I'm going through lately. In my mind society is constructed to serve itself, not the individual members. The whole thing is geared towards sustaining itself. This sounds kind of extreme but i don't mean it to come across this way, but society is a cult, and if you don't play by the rules then you're out. It's really that simple. Her job as a therapist (and she isn't doing this on purpose) is to make you a functioning member of the cult by adopting a conditioning that's right for the cult. Your job is to contribute to the detriment of your own genuine self esteem by making you think that self worth is achieved by doing something they call "worthwhile" 

Edited March 2, 2020 by BETGR164128

[HP Lovecraft]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol

Next time tell her that you're God

are you really serious with this shit man? Fucking hell.

[Commodent]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol

Next time tell her that you're God

Then you're a narcissist suffering from delusions of grandeur, obviously. Lol. 

According to David R. Hawkins clinical psychologists calibrate to 270 on average (on a logarithmic consciousness scale from 0 to 1000), while unconditional love resides at 540. So her reaction is not at all surprising.

Always speak from direct experience when talking to therapists. If you have never experienced unconditional self-love then do not talk about unconditional self-love. That will spare you from a lot of hassle. People can sense it when you're speaking truthfully.

[ardacigin]

12 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I told her that if self esteem was related with self love, that you always should have high self esteem regarding if you accomplish goals or not, because love is universal in reality/universe.

She was shocked by this and ask me if that was really how reality / the world work. That that wasn't our experience as humans etc

It is interesting because the relationship of self love/ self esteem and maintaining self-esteem whether you accomplish goals are not are actually psychologically valid ideas. Not just spiritually. I can understand how she might not relate to 'Universe is love' but the rest of it aligns with western psychology.

High-quality therapy is not easy to find. Also don't expect your psychologist to be on board with no-self, universal love etc. Those psychologists do exist but they are rare. 

Try to use therapeutic assistance to work on other aspects of development like shadow work, behavior change, addictions, social skills, certain forms of emotional work, procrastination, cognitive behavior therapy etc. 

These might appear like petty problems but they actually have a deep residual impact in the psyche. The habit forces run deeper than you might think and certain behavioral acts that we default towards would benefit from therapeutic assistance.  We all have blind spots, even as spiritual practitioners.

You can also maximize the results you get from all western psychology techniques if you do them with diligent mindfulness and psychedelic assistance.

So try to get the most of your psychologist's assistance. And try to focus on those aspects where she has some expertise in rather than discussing direct-experience based spiritual concepts with her.

I hope this helps

 

[fridjonk]

@Javfly33 If I remember correctly, Nathaniel posed forth a question in the book one should ask one's therapist before continuing with them, to validate their level. 

[Javfly33]

@ardacigin Yeah, I mean I am mainly using it for social skills but since I've becoming aware part of my problem is a lot in self esteem/love then I am sometimes still reticent to make goals a way to solve this. However yes I'll keep an open mind and basically as you said my idea so far it's a mixture of this kind of "mechanical therapy" with my own holistic therapy, however I just hope it doesn't go too far to the other side.

@fridjonk I don't remember reading that  What should I've asked exactly?

[Dan502]

"Well Mr. God, what brings you to therapy? Impotence? Fear of abandonment? Do the other kids make fun of you?"

In all seriousness, it sounds as though the therapist could have done better by asking more about your own experience rather than speaking from, we presume, hers although this is only my second-hand impression. She may have picked up on your use of the word "should".

[fridjonk]

@Javfly33 (p. 275 (bottom) - 276)

There he recommends you ask your therapist: 

• What do you understand "self-esteem" to mean?
• What do you think healthy self-esteem depends on?
• What will we do together to that will have a positive effect on my self-esteem?
• What are your reasons for thinking so? 

"Any conscientious professional will respect these questions" 

I'd say any therapist that does not acknowledge Branden's work should not be taken seriously on the topic of self-esteem. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by fridjonk

[Preety_India]

This therapist is too tied to society's defenition of self worth, that's obviously not going to work for someone like you. 

Take in advice that's good for you and then do what you have to do. 

Self esteem is essential for survival like water. You can obviously upgrade yourself to feel better. But there is always a FOUNDATIONAL SELF ESTEEM, a sense of self worth you hold even in the most terrible disparaging situations of life. 

A psychologist can't help you with that. 

A doctor can place a pacemaker machine in your heart to make the heart beat. He can't give you the will to live life. That's just how the medical field is. They are good but they are not motivational or inspiring

 

For inspiration you have to look at the common man's struggles and triumphs and realize that you also have your own mountains to climb. 

 

[Bill W]

17 hours ago, Commodent said:

According to David R. Hawkins clinical psychologists calibrate to 270 on average (on a logarithmic consciousness scale from 0 to 1000), while unconditional love resides at 540. So her reaction is not at all surprising.

So you'd need two therapists working together to get your Love at 540? Three therapists would calibrate at 810 and if you could afford four therapists you'd become enlightened as they would combine for a calibration of 1080 - although I am not sure how many people could afford to pay for four therapists at once. 

There was that big piece of research, I can't recall it to hand. They researched all the main types of therapy and the result was it didn't matter what kind of therapy you had, the results of your progress/treatment were all down to individual therapist qualities regardless of modality. Makes sense.

In the UK the flavor of the month/year/decade is Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) of which I am trained in. But I'm starting to think that in a few years time or a decade, more psycho-dynamic psychoanalytical approaches will be proved right and people will step back and think Freud and Jung etc were right all along. Those types of therapy (sometimes) get a bad wrap over in the UK compared to CBT.

If I had to pick, I'd go for any therapy that combines the work of Albert Ellis and Carl Jung. ACT also appeals as it's values driven and involves more work on acceptance and mindfulness. 

 

[Commodent]

59 minutes ago, Bill W said:

So you'd need two therapists working together to get your Love at 540? Three therapists would calibrate at 810 and if you could afford four therapists you'd become enlightened as they would combine for a calibration of 1080 - although I am not sure how many people could afford to pay for four therapists at once. 

Three therapists at the consciousness level of 270 would still make their average consciousness level 270. It's a logarithmic scale, so 271 is 10 times the amplitude of 270. Similarly, 540 (10^540) is 10^270 times the amplitude of 270. So 270 to 540 truly is a gigantic leap.

[Bill W]

I figured it wouldn't be that simple! I actually love David Hawkins by the way. Love him. Although I'm obviously not too clued up on calibration. 

[Javfly33]

@fridjonk Interesting, I should have asked her those at the beggining, damn. 

@Preety_India Yes! I agree totally with that. That is the self-esteem i´m talking about.

[PlayTheGame]

IMO therapy is not to find answers, but just to have somebody to talk to. By articulating your problems, you will sort them out in your own mind.

[ttm]

18 hours ago, Bill W said:

So you'd need two therapists working together to get your Love at 540? Three therapists would calibrate at 810 and if you could afford four therapists you'd become enlightened as they would combine for a calibration of 1080 - although I am not sure how many people could afford to pay for four therapists at once.

 

16 hours ago, Commodent said:

Three therapists at the consciousness level of 270 would still make their average consciousness level 270. It's a logarithmic scale, so 271 is 10 times the amplitude of 270. Similarly, 540 (10^540) is 10^270 times the amplitude of 270. So 270 to 540 truly is a gigantic leap.

 

16 hours ago, Bill W said:

I figured it wouldn't be that simple!

Wtf, you are both joking here, right?

[Commodent]

@ttm  No.

[ttm]

@Commodent well, perhaps Bill W did.

But if he did or not, whether that consciousness level scale is linear, logarithmic, or complete bullshit, does not have any relevance to why his logic was fallacious. It was essentially the same as "if we let 10 first graders teach us, we could learn as much as if we let one 10th grader teach us". Thousand stupid people does not equal one brilliant genius. So the problem here is that he was adding up quality which is not cumulative like that.