Taylor Swift Is A Whining Feminist Man-Basher In Latest Music Video ‘The Man’.

[Lento]

7 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I've faced this a lot on this forum! There's a lot of denial and trivialization of the shadows of feminism. The line of thinking goes : 'You're either with us or against us. If you're looking at our dysfunctions, that means you're against us and therefore all the labels associated with the patriarchy apply to you! Misogynist, chauvanist, sexist, etc.'

That's because feminism hasn't arrived at its destination yet. Focusing on the shadows in this case is like asking someone in the desert looking for water whether chloride water causes health problems or not. It's a typical response from a homeless person whose being asked about the hardships of householding. At least, that's how I feel towards this issue.

10 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

Do you imagine that a video by a male artist, about him being divorce raped and how he feels about it, portraying his ex wife with similar artistic license (wouldn't want it to be boring), would be in any way well received and defended and justified as eagerly as Taylor Swift's video?

Yes, I do.

A good artist knows how to portray his message whether it's misery, anger, frustration, betrayal, or anything else. He wouldn't have to use the same imagery though. He would use his artistic skills to make people empathise with him. A good artist knows how to connect with your heart if your heart is open. But don't expect a good artist to portray hatred towards a particular woman in an era of women's rights, that would be foolish of him. He would probably show how faithful and honest he was and still is, and then he'd show that he was and still is a feminist lol, and then he'd share his story with that particular woman. In this case, could you imagine anyone not empathising with him?

[Parththakkar12]

13 minutes ago, Lento said:

That's because feminism hasn't arrived at its destination yet. Focusing on the shadows in this case is like asking someone in the desert looking for water whether chloride water causes health problems or not. It's a typical response from a homeless person whose being asked about the hardships of householding. At least, that's how I feel towards this issue.

My explanation for this is that Stage Green is Tier 1, which means it will think in Black and White terms. The ability to hold 2 opposing perspectives in an unbiased way comes only at Stage Yellow, which is Tier 2.

Stage Green can believe in relativism in an absolutist manner! It can also become rigid with being progressive and conformist in a non-conformist way.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[mandyjw]

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Question for feminists : When someone shows you the dysfunctional aspects of feminism, do you really think they're denying women's oppression/inequality against women?

A lot of the dysfunction isn't caused by any movement itself but is the habit of the mind to feel fear and insecurity and seek security from the "other". Insecurity in men and women both is what causes women to be undervalued in the first place. Women feel and see injustice, prejudice and they blame others and demand that they change their ways. This movement and other dynamics make men feel insecure in turn and they blame the movement and actions that women create to try to attack the problem. Until the root of the problem is seen and understood in oneself there will be reaction and blame. 

Having said, that the reality is that women do need society to evolve past the unconscious drives of survival to be safe and not repressed. There's an inherent vulnerability when it comes to a survival standpoint that needs to be seen and not exploited, and for this the understanding of men is necessary. To overlook this and to ask women not to get angry and ask for a better world isn't seeing the whole picture. So it does seem like denial. 

The entire issue on both sides is one of insecurity. If that was seen and healed in oneself, there would no longer be a fight or two sides at all. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by mandyjw

[Ibn Sina]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

If a male artist did the same thing, he will deserve all the criticism because men can't cry like babies, they had the privilege for centuries

What offends me is that ( It seems to me, as written by people like above) what I can do and cannot do is influenced by what my ancestors did.

Okay, my ancestors, rightfully, admirably, honourably, were great warriors. Men fought in the past, it was a violent world back then and hence men, of course, had the power.

But times have changed.

We do not live in such a male dominated  world.

When it comes to war, Men >>>>>>>>>> Women, and any one who say otherwise can go to hell. That is why rightfully people preferred sons over daughters.

But the current society of- Buisness, Art, Science, Modern Medicine, Technology, Programming, Gaming,  , Fashion,it's a beautiful world hands down, 

does not necessarily favour men like the past.

Instagram, Fashion, Facebook etc is ruled by women,  many ugly girls have more  followers then many attractive guys, just because men follow them due to their sexual needs. There is nothing inherent great about such women, it's just that young healthy men have a good sex drive  and unlike women have nothing to lose with the hunt, which makes them follow such women hence  increasing their value. But there's nothing great about women just by owning a vagina. But still, they do rule such platforms due to owning that  thing and men having nothing to loose while they having everything to loose when acting like men.

So it's quite foolish to do all this shit. 

There are areas ruled by women due to their own ability. There are areas ruled by men due to their  own ability. 

Men aren't successful in finance because of some 'male prievalge' just like male football is not better than female football due to some male privilege.

You don't see men whining about not having followers like women do, or whining about why they are not ruling the dating market. It's because they don't whine, they have better things do, they work hard, get the good job, get to the top of the corporate ladder, and women whine 'MALE PRIVILEGE!'. 

And I cannot be judged due to my ancestors did.

I have never had any male privilege in my life. The friends that I have made, all the success that  I have got, is all due to my hardwork. While if I was a women, I would be getting more  social success because I own a vagina ( Of course, not in a million years would I want that). Other fields like science , buisness etc, is basically a genderless anyone can win, while war , sports is male dominated.

The day I will support feminism is the day I feel I have been privileged in any way. Of course, I come from a backward society where still people do prefer men, but I am talking it from the modern 1st world country point of view, from the modern market and political scene (You have powerful women like Hillary Clinton, you have Elizabeth Warren just completely owning Michal Bloomberg.)

For the current men of 2020, the guideline is- get up, show up, work hard, compete with men, and don't forget, compete with women too.

The current modern society of Europe and US, is more or  less an egalitarian society when it comes to the sexes at least.

And feminism, is ofcourse, an injustice to current men as it seems like the girl in the post that I highlighted, women seems to be channeling their anger of 1 million years of suppression to the current boys and  men.
We  are not a million year old. I am just 22 years old. I have never done anything bad to women. So why are you putting your anger of hundred years of suppression on to me.

Yes, I am sorry that your gender was suppressed, but so are many animals in the animal kingdom. Nature is a nasty place. Violence is the default mode. And slowly intelligence and spirituality is making our society more peaceful and that too is due to in large part because of the generousity and ingenuity of men in the past.

It is generous men who are giving women their previlege, it is generous men who helped the women suffrage, not women. Men could have easily took charge and still kept women as their maids. But they became geneous.

And now you are hating men?

Worse, you are hating the current 20-40 year old men because of their ancestors did?

Back to what  I said-

Get up, Show up, Work hard, Compete with men, Compete women.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Ibn Sina

[remember]

well you seem to not live in the times of pussy grabber presidents.

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

You don't see men whining about not having followers like women do, or whining about why they are not ruling the dating market. It's because they don't whine, they have better things do, they work hard,

Yet you're whining here. Maybe focus on your work. 

 

[Ibn Sina]

47 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Yet you're whining here. Maybe focus on your work.

Such a weak arguement.

Okay, back to work I go.

P.S- 
I didn't say Men do not whine, I said Men do not whine about not owning the dating , fashion industry etc like women whine about not getting their place in finance, buisness etc.

Side note If you think men shouldn't whine then you are sexist btw.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Ibn Sina

[Lelouch Lamperouge]

But her lyrics doesn't make any sense...they are meaningless

[Ibn Sina]

Finally all I can say is, if ever there was a time when men felt suppressed by women, they would come back to power  in a heart beat and The power which women might feel they have in areas like 'dating', 'entertainment' , 'porn' is not power per se, it's a pseudo power, it's power clothed  by male attention.
The only way woman (as a whole, not talking about Angela Merke) will ever get a shot at power (I mean the real thing, not the million followers of Kim Kardashian) is if God somehow changed human anatomy and turned it into like that of Bonobos insteads of Chimps.

Peace!

( Back to work)

Edited February 29, 2020 by Ibn Sina

[Lento]

12 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

My explanation for this is that Stage Green is Tier 1, which means it will think in Black and White terms. The ability to hold 2 opposing perspectives in an unbiased way comes only at Stage Yellow, which is Tier 2.

Well, I guess, kind of. But keep in mind that tier two emerges from transcendence, not suppression. If you want tier one feminists to move into tier two, then you should give them the space to explore the full extent of their feminism with all of its potential problems. Instead of just warning them of the dangers, it would be better to support them, hold their hands, and guide them through.

4 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

You can complain about the inappropriate focusing on the shadow side of feminism if Taylor Swift were living in a country where women are actually still being oppressed. I don't mean being snickered at by her male peers, I mean being confined to the kitchen and being punishable by death if she ever drove a car.

She might have a leg to stand on if her song were about hollywood sexual harrassment or something, but it's not even that.

Notice that these are your standards for what you think is worth complaining about and what's not. You're not in her shoes, you're judging from a radically different place.

7 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

This song or video wouldn't even be worth criticizing if it weren't riding the current wave of western #metoo and feminist victimhood. It's absurd. Not to mention an insult to actual victims.

I think you have a point here. Although, in the end of the day, it's her job, and she's clearly not conscious enough to be aware of her self-biases. You're probably asking for too much from a pop artist. It's not fair to compare her with yourself. Perhaps a better comparison is the one she's highlighting, with DiCaprio, for example.

14 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

Are saying that's what Taylor Swift did with this video?

I'm not saying anything. Read some YouTube comments under the video and judge for yourself.

[Roy]

You all need to desperately learn and practice acceptance. You're neurotically unwilling to accept the reality that feminists do things that make you mad, and think reality should be another way. They should be perfectly logical, not make mistakes, and behave the way YOU think they should behave. Which if you searched for honestly enough you'd find it would be extremely biased towards your own desires and survival needs.

Step outside of yourself for one moment and consider getting an eagle eye view of history to realize the truth (and it is the truth); Men have been historically favored over women for thousands and thousands of years in many aspects.

Guess what? We're now in the part of history where they are able to fight back. Do you think they are going to fight clean? Should they fight clean? No, stop being so naive. Saying they should be this way or that way is a projection of your ego. They are behaving in a way that is inconvenient to you. Too bad, quit whining like a little bitch. You sound like a woman! (See what I did there?)

Transcend this stupidity. You're keeping the pigs in the mud longer than they have to be by getting in there and trying to wrestle them out. Worst of all you're covered in mud now too.

You are literally creating all of your own problems and stress, and you aren't even aware of it.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Roy

[Parththakkar12]

11 minutes ago, Lento said:

Well, I guess, kind of. But keep in mind that tier two emerges from transcendence, not suppression. If you want tier one feminists to move into tier two, then you should give them the space to explore the full extent of their feminism with all of its potential problems. Instead of just warning them of the dangers, it would be better to support them, hold their hands, and guide them through.

Who's taking away their space?!?! Feminism is as rapacious as has ever been. Feminism isn't bound by the constraints of society as it is anti-society (I'm equating society with patriarchy here). When it comes to progressive thinking and visualization, sky is the limit! As far as guiding them through goes, Stage Green can be idealistic and resistive. I believe in showing them the ground realities and saying 'This is the reality. For your own sake, I hope you stop resisting it. All change you can get will be created in reality!'

 

36 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Having said, that the reality is that women do need society to evolve past the unconscious drives of survival to be safe and not repressed. There's an inherent vulnerability when it comes to a survival standpoint that needs to be seen and not exploited, and for this the understanding of men is necessary. To overlook this and to ask women not to get angry and ask for a better world isn't seeing the whole picture. So it does seem like denial. 

There are people who will just project on feminism to deny the dysfunctions of the patriarchy. They are the majority of people in fact so the assumption you make is understandable. However, some of us will show you the dysfunctions of it from a space of genuine care for the movement. When this is the case, the intention is to look at the dysfunctions and resolve them, so as to get the best results in terms of social change. It matters for your ability to actually achieve progress!

[Lento]

2 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

No! It was in response to your argument that we're not supposed to point out the shadow side of feminism. Those were your standards. YOU compared it to being out of water in the desert. It just doesn't fly.

I'm not saying western women have no right to complain. I'm saying the situation for western women is not so dire that we can't point out the shadow sides of feminism. Especially since those shadow sides are in the process of completely dominating feminism in the west. There has never been a better time to point out these shadow sides than now.

Developmentally speaking, it's still too early for you to expect to see a full objective understanding of feminism. These kinds of changes usually take decades and centuries, and of course it is getting better, more feminists are becoming aware of their shadows. So make sure you don't dismiss the time factor. Until that homeless person is fully living the most equal life possible, you shouldn't judge him by the same criteria.

You must also know that compassion comes from above. If you're actually having the higher perspective here, you should be more compassionate and less objective. Life is not a mathematical equation! Logic is not everything, dude!

8 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

I didn't ask her to make that video. I'm asking why you keep defending it. 

I'm just expressing my views.

12 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

No but you are holding up a standard for male artists that you aren't willing to apply to Taylor Swift's video.

It's not that I hold up these standards. I alone don't determine whether the message does resonate or not. It's the masses. A good artist knows how to connect with the masses.

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

There are people who will just project on feminism to deny the dysfunctions of the patriarchy. They are the majority of people in fact so the assumption you make is understandable. However, some of us will show you the dysfunctions of it from a space of genuine care for the movement. When this is the case, the intention is to look at the dysfunctions and resolve them, so as to get the best results in terms of social change. It matters for your ability to actually achieve progress!

Sneaky fox ? 

[Parththakkar12]

Lol man you just had to come in and save the day, didn't you?! You absolutely believe in progressivism that 'It's the one right ideology', don't you?!?! I know you'll call this concern-trolling just cuz I said that maybe it could be dysfunctional in some ways..... I know your gambit....

[tenta]

Female privilege is bigger than male privilege, this is obvious so ofc the video will get hate.

[Lento]

14 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Who's taking away their space?!?! Feminism is as rapacious as has ever been. Feminism isn't bound by the constraints of society as it is anti-society (I'm equating society with patriarchy here). When it comes to progressive thinking and visualization, sky is the limit! As far as guiding them through goes, Stage Green can be idealistic and resistive. I believe in showing them the ground realities and saying 'This is the reality. For your own sake, I hope you stop resisting it. All change you can get will be created in reality!'

 

There are people who will just project on feminism to deny the dysfunctions of the patriarchy. They are the majority of people in fact so the assumption you make is understandable. However, some of us will show you the dysfunctions of it from a space of genuine care for the movement. When this is the case, the intention is to look at the dysfunctions and resolve them, so as to get the best results in terms of social change. It matters for your ability to actually achieve progress!

In theory, you are right. In practice, well, it's very different.

[Lento]

2 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

It's simply about being honest, to BOTH sides.

If you're talking about robots, then yes, I totally agree.

[Inliytened1]

4 hours ago, Preety_India said:

There is a serious error in judgement here. Historically it's women who were always oppressed and not men. 

And women are still oppressed because society especially men have a harsh way of judging them and men don't apply the same judgement to themselves and that's hypocrisy. 

If she felt oppressed as a woman, that doesn't make her a man hater. 

If a male artist did the same thing, he will deserve all the criticism because men can't cry like babies, they had the privilege for centuries. 

And like Leo said real men care about uplifting women and not ignoring them because they have been ignored enough.. 

Feminism only hurts those men who are anti-woman. 

I understand that there is a toxic side to feminism. But overall it's not about male bashing. It's about setting the woman free from the barriers imposed by men.. 

And don't call her a victim if she wants equality. 

 

 

@Preety_India. Well said..i wouldn't put too much weight into @Johnny5s words on this topic.  He got way too emotional and it seems there is some collective ego or selfishness going on there in favor of the male gender.  Just my perspective though.

When we stop thinking about ourselves all the time we can jump into the females perspective and think about them for a change.  

[Forestluv]

 

 

30 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I know you'll call this concern-trolling just cuz I said that maybe it could be dysfunctional in some ways..... 

 Nope. Calling out dysfunction is not the point.

It’s about structural power dynamics, who have voices at the table and who holds who accountable. 

Billionaires quieting dissent of society by saying “yes, there are dysfunctions of capitalism, yet we will hold ourselves accountable because we genuinely care about everyone in society” - serves to maintain the status quo. And it works to some extent.