How is Sam Harris not 100% yellow?

[Endangered-EGO]

I have watched the spiral dynamics videos and I am a big fan of sam harris philosophy. You can argue on the turquoise part of sam harris. But isn't he majority yellow? I have not yet seen One debate he lost.

He recognises the mystery of consciousness, and no Blue person has yet won a debate against him. He is a neurologist, which makes him scientific and partly orange, but he also recognizes the difference of assumptions between consciousness as a first and materialism as the first assumption of reality.

I haven't seen anyone that's more pure yellow than him. He has had a few spiritual experiences without interpretation (!!!!)

Also to claim that he is in the materialist paradigm doesn't mean he puts all his faith into materialism (unlike Rihard dawkins for example who is a radical materialist atheist)

IMHO people comparing Sam Harris to Jordan Peterson, Richard dawkins, bill maher, ben shapiro (90%blue 10%orange 0.00001%yellow) is just ridiculous.

Can someone link a debate to me that you think he lost? I definitely would love to see him debate an enlightened Mystic, like sadhguru for example.

Whats blue and orange about him? He is probably more yellow than Obama who is praised by a lot of people for being yellow.

[RendHeaven]

10 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

 I have not yet seen One debate he lost.
Can someone link a debate to me that you think he lost?
I definitely would love to see him debate an enlightened Mystic, like sadhguru for example.

There's your bias.

Stage yellows don't argue or debate.

And really, in true discourse there is no "winning" or "losing." That fantasy is just so silly.

The mystic would have to stoop SO low to "debate" Sam. So of course he will not do that!

 

Regarding your question, Sam certainly has a massive bias toward rationality and survival that he is not willing to admit.

Notice, I am NOT calling him unintelligent, nor am I saying that he is not persuasive.

Of course he is highly intelligent and very persuasive!

 

But intelligence and persuasiveness are NOT what the categories of the spiral are based on.

The categories of the spiral are based on perspective. The "higher" you climb, the wider your perspective is.

For Sam to reach yellow, he must widen his perspective.

[Preety_India]

Sam Harris is more black than yellow.

 

His business is orange. His confabulations are blue.

His never ending statements are turquoise. 

His view on psychedelics are more like identity politics.  sorry couldn't hold back my laugh.

Have a great day 

[Endangered-EGO]

@RendHeaven Sadhguru debates orange and blue people. And he is probably the most turquoise public person I know of today.
Survival IS yellow AND turquoise. I am calling it a debate, because it is what it is, his point is to share his view, not to win an argument, which people from the entire spectrum do too, from blue to turquoise.

Rationality and philosophy can also be yellow, he is a systems thinker. But I get your point, explaining blue and orange things into science (neuroscience). It however doesn't mean he cannot take another viewpoint. Philosophy is Yellow.

When he talks about religion he criticises the blue people and not the "finger pointing towards the true nature of the self", he himself believes in the true nature of the self, which is turquoise. A turquoise/yellow person can also be a scientist. Materialism works in the hallucination we are experiencing. rationality works in systems-thinking.

What perspective should he have to be more yellow?

I believe I am more turquoise than him, but to be able to rationalise things and explain systems as good as he does it is phenomenal. I also believe that it might be easier to be turquoise than yellow. Stupid people with a good guru can be turquoise. Stupid people with intelligent philosophers cannot become yellow.

He doesn't debate turquoise people, I would love to see that. feel free to link it to me if you found something.

[Preety_India]

I had been on Sam's forum years ago and I remember it was free. I was a free subscriber. 

The last time I checked his forum and I was supposed to pay to just be a subscriber. 

Plus he started this new thing of selling T shirts and Mugs. Didn't expect that from him who was always touting how he gives everything for free. 

Now everything is charged. And the prices aren't for the student fanboys he has unless they're from Harvard with parents from Hollywood like his. 

Then I decided to settle for his meditation app. And when I checked the price I was...... Gobsmacked.. Like you would when you see an expensive handbag in Paris.. 

In layman's Language - dude making a lot of money on meditation eh! Ain't nothing turquoise about him!! Dude just doing his hustle like regular folks sitting on a high horse. He will even start selling underwear with Sam Harris stamped on it and fanboys will buy it.

 

 

[Endangered-EGO]

@Preety_India So sadhgurus business is also orange? Sadhguru claims his business is only there to fullfill its job (selling YOGA)

His statements are not turquoise. Most gurus don't use turquoise statements. Turquoise statements are for example "everything is a hallucination", "The self is God", "existence is nothingness" Leo Gura uses turquoise statements in his videos about enlightenment. "life is a dream", "The self is an illusion" etc. 

He is making money from his products fine, Yes that's orange from a simplistic perspective. But that just proves that money corrupts his yellow teachings. Dalai Lama is fully enlightened and still has a fortune of 140 million dollars. I am not saying he is turquoise but YELLOW. Yellow doesn't mean philanthropist or Humble. 

[Leo Gura]

@Endangered-EGO Your notion of winning or losing debates is silly. Truth and consciousness are not things to be debated at all.

Yes, Sam Harris is more developed than JP and of course Ben Shaprio. But Sam has plenty of Orange yet in him, and he is certainly not awake.

But yes, he has a good deal of Yellow in him. But Yellow is not that high when we are talking about things like truth, consciousness, love, God, nonduality, spirituality, etc. Yellow is still childhood.

Sam Harris is very moralistic and does not understand relativity. So he hasn't fully integrated Green.

[Preety_India]

9 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

So sadhgurus business is also orange? Sadhguru claims his business is only there to fullfill its job (selling YOGA)

All business is business in the end, Sam Harris or Sadhguru or the Dalai. I'm not sure about the brand of Dalai but he doesn't seem to keen about money, more keen about his message 

Leo is the most turquoise person I've seen so far. He does his own shit his own way and not afraid or buying into general platitudes. In short Leo is the real deal because Leo is not a shill. 

There's no comparison between Leo and someone yellow or orange like Sam Harris. 

I will leave you with one thought to ponder on. 

Leo has contributed more to the forum, YouTube, Life purpose course and blog than Sam Harris can ever in a lifetime! 

That sums up Leo's extraordinarily high quality on the Spiral Dynamics stage. So far nobody beats him. 

Others are just children sitting on a high horse. 

 

 

[ryuzaki]

a friend likes sams app and he said he got it for free when he asked for it

 

[Endangered-EGO]

@Leo Gura  In a debate there is always someone who has the best points, that's "winning". Systems thinking trumps ideologies. That's basically how he debates orange and blue people. Its about the outcome, if the discussion is about flying to the moon, a blue person would say mohammed flew there with a winged horse, orange would say rockets, green would say rockets, yellow would say rockets, and turquoise would say you can astral travel there and that the moon is just a hallucination like everything else. 

You said it yourself, you can't give blue or orange people turquoise facts. When Sam talks to blue people, he shows them how their ideology is circular thinking. He is not like Richard dawkins claiming that "science knows that religion is wrong"

Truth and consciousness are turquoise and not yellow, I specifically said that he is pure yellow and not turquoise. Awakenings are also turquoise. He at least rationalises that the self is an illusion, no matter if he realised that for himself or not (which technically, would make him just a little turquoise, but that's not the point).

What is orange about him except how he explains to blue people how orange materialism debunks their ideologies. There is no chance in the world that he isn't able to put himself in the position of blue and orange people. Every new philosophy students also understands philosophical systems thinking of the mind (I forgot the name of the german philosopher that introduced systems thinking). He as a philosopher also surely understands the dilemma between consciousness creating reality and consciousness only observing reality. There is this famous quote saying "If a tree falls down in a Forrest, does it make a noise if nobody hears it". If he knew it didn't make a noise that would make him turquoise, but he can put himself in that perspective, so that's also yellow. Orange people don't do that kind of philosophy. 

Again, Who is more pure yellow than Sam, I am not asking who is more turquoise, that would be silly, because I am convinced I am. And how is he orange?

[Endangered-EGO]

@Preety_India  Again I am probably more turquoise than Sam Harris, a lot of people here are in fact. I am arguing for YELLOW. I specifically said that he isn't turquoise....

You are clearly putting turquoise above Yellow... Fine... Not my point, I am talking YELLOW not TURQUOISE. If you believe that Leo is more turquoise than Sadhguru, Dalai Lama, Jesus, than that's your interpretation. Now you can philosophize if more awakenings are more turquoise than a permanent liberation of the ego (enlightenment). Again, not my point.

@ryuzaki Which makes Sam Harris Yellow in this aspect and not corrupted by Money. That's also the same reason why Leo doesn't put his spiritual teachings behind a paywall. Money can corrupt Turquoise (cults) and can also corrupt Yellow.

Now is Leo orange because he puts his life-purpose-course behind a paywall? Or is it simply sustaining his business? 

I have bought the course and the booklist. His booklist contains books about spirituality though. So is Leo still orange too? He clearly doesn't want to start a cult. Would he give the booklist for free if some poor guy from a 3rd world country absolutely wanted it? I guess so. Don't abuse this though...

[Endangered-EGO]

@Johnny5

13 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

@Preety_India be careful about using quantity of output as a measure, though...

Most "high consciousness" people would rather not be public figures in a "low consciousness" world.

So most "high consciousness" people nobody ever hears about. If they do contribute anything, it will often be largely behind the scenes.

And v.v. most people everyone hears about are not "high consciousness", just "popular" (to "low consciousness" audience).

It's only the exceptions that prove the rule.

Count this comment as an upvote for your comment.

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

And how is he orange?

I don't feel he deeply understands Green. Because he hasn't fully gone through it.

He's very rationalistic, materialistic, and moralistic.

His political positions are problematic when he does his whole Islamophobia thing and his race IQ thing.

One of the hallmarks of Yellow is non-judgment and the ability to appreciate the relativity of different perspectives. Sam has some of that, but not too deep.

Again, he def has some Yellow, but not 100% Yellow. It's pretty pointless splitting hairs over this. You're never going to know a person's entire Spiral profile. We're just making best guesses here.

[Preety_India]

To sum up what I really want to say. 

You can't rely on a label, however accurate it may be. 

You can't really know a person on the basis of a label and it won't mean much in the end. The label doesn't really matter. 

Whether you are stage Yellow or Turquoise doesn't matter as long as you are able to do the greatest good. 

Why? 

Because let's say Mr A goes on stage and gives a great talk, he is called stage Yellow or Stage Green and so on.. But when he goes backstage he doesn't even shake hands with the person who is waiting for him, he doesn't do acts of charity, only does to show people, but in reality he doesn't care about anyone. He can appear Stage Yellow or whatever stage because he knows how to act that part on stage but in real life he has a shitty personality. That only backstage folks will know but they won't talk about it. 

Therefore, categorising people into stages of the Spiral is like calling a person great or honorable for just being popular. 

The personality matters more because it's a mirror into who that person really is, it's exposed in the most challenging and vulnerable situations, it's exposed when nobody is watching and when there is nothing to gain. 

Even someone like Nicki Minaj can suddenly reach Turquoise by their deep empathy and philanthropic acts. They will not even understand Spiral Dynamics nor will they pretend to be a certain stage to look enlightened or intelligent to the masses. They won't have the vocabulary to look intelligent. They can have the biggest heart yet get easily dismissed simply because they don't fit a standard narrative. 

And remember a person is dynamic and constantly changing. Today the person that talks orange can appear Green tomorrow depending on how he responds to a situation. Thus we are in a constant state of Flux where one minute we can act selfish or lost and next minute forgive and seek the greatest good..

Everything comes down to personality and character which is rarely faked because it's who the person really is regardless of what stage of the Spiral he is on. 

A stage orange person might have done more good for humanity than the stage Yellow or stage Green out there. 

A person's possibilities for love, truth, authenticity, consciousness can be infinite and can't be decided on a spiral stage. 

Not saying that we shouldn't use these terms for  reasons of simplicity but these labels aren't absolute indicators of a person's true nature and intentions. And a person's true nature/character and intentions matter much more in the real world than a textbook definition of their philosophy. 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Preety_India

[Endangered-EGO]

@Leo Gura  Fine he doesn't emphasize Green, and he doesn't care or talk about it. But he does point out how Greens perceptions of the World about Islam is just full of shit...
Islamophobia... Well he is surely putting different religions on a scale from harmless to dangerous. He simply doesn't care about the turquoise pointers of the Qur'an. Islamic people fighting oppression (jihad) are more dangerous than Tibetan monks fighting oppression (self immolation). This point of view can be orange and Yellow.

Rationalism: Reason and Materialism is the best way to prove blue people wrong.

I don't see how his moralistic arguments are not Yellow.

IQ is quantifying intelligence which is orange bullshit. I give you that.

Okay now I can see how he is partially orange. He should emphasize more on the solutions to the problems rather than his moralistic approach, to fight the dangers of Green and Islam. Which he actually does, but not enough. 

I however believe that his rationalistic and moralistic approach to Islam is simply a means to an end. He has yellow solutions on how to prevent those "religious-disasters", but green reporters focus too much on the fact that "people/religions are all the same" and he is losing himself into those senseless debates to prove why he is right, instead of giving the methods right away. Showing that there IS in fact a problem might be the first step before presenting a solution to the problem. People denying that there is a problem stand in his way, that is also his business model....ironically and unfortunately.

1%turquoise 74%yellow 25% orange take it or leave it


 

[Endangered-EGO]

@Preety_India Okay, that's fine.  Depends on the objective... Blue people can do a lot of good for mankind despite their religion. You are not wrong on that, but you are missing the point I am trying to make.

Yoghi Bhajan the guy that revolutionised kundalini Yoga, now apparently raped a lot of Women, even though he was enlightened. 100% turquoise and a Devil.

Osho, enlightened and 135468435213 rolls royce in his garage.

Spiral dynamics is of course a simplistic classifications of the stages of a persons development. Is a blue catholic priest 100% blue even though he experienced infinite love and made an interpretation of it? Is an orange person who loses his sense of self (enlightenment) and lives in the psychiatry still 100% orange if he believes he is just crazy?

Of course its not that simple.

[Roy]

I love Sam Harris! I started my whole intellectual/philosophical journey with him back in 2013 while also listening to people like Terence McKenna!

For that point in my life where I was probably a mix of 65% Orange 35% Green he resonated huge with me. He gave me a strong scientific/rational/logical basis to ground myself in but also taught some more advanced concepts like challenging Free Will as an illusion, introducing meditation, and taking on a more communal "green" attitude towards politics with less affinity for materialism in our culture (economic not meta-physical).

I think Sam is a fantastic bridging point to get stage Orange people to really start considering expanding to the next level. However it's also apparent he's just soooo damn good at debating and being a champion of reason I think people burrow themselves in that because it's so comfortable for the mind.

You have to realize that Sam's survival is grounded in maintaining his worldview for the time being. He is a public speaker allied with many other academics and scientists, he is an arbiter for rationality, he is a damn neuroscientist on top of it lol! It's simply not in his interest for his public persona or income to branch away from that too much.

I bet if Sam took a few years off to get away from trying to always fight our toxic culture and politics, take his meditation to the next level, and have some more psychedelic experiences he would come back almost fully Yellow and be in a position to really raise a lot more people with him.

Yes Sam has a decent amount of Yellow right now but it's more like 45% Orange 30% Green 25% Yellow. That's just probably the truth about it.

I stopped consuming content from him about 2 years ago, though I check back now and then to ground myself a bit and because I like him.

[Preety_India]

 

So what are his yellow solutions to those religious disasters thought experiments? 

• Genocide 

Or 

•  Conversion to militant atheism 

Because that seems to be what he is always hinting at. 

 

his talk on religion and IQ is very divisive and debilitating masked as truth and facts. 

He made a career out of religion. Ben Affleck wasn't far off the mark. 

Sorry but can't take that guy seriously and consider him yellow when a lot of what he promotes is juvenile ranting of his Insecurities. 

Last time on Twitter he suffered from Trump Derangement Syndrome TDS because he just wouldn't stop tweeting about him or Islam. 

He is stuck in orange forever. 

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Preety_India

Yoghi Bhajan the guy that revolutionised kundalini Yoga, now apparently raped a lot of Women, even though he was enlightened. 100% turquoise and a Devil.

Osho, enlightened and 135468435213 rolls royce in his garage.
 

You're making the same point that I'm making. Some Indian guru is not enlightened or stage Turquoise simply because they have a long beard or because they are Indian.. That's why Spiral Dynamics is not accurate. 

Because it's the personality that matters. And how do you Guage personality? Through their actions, deeds and their true intentions and purpose. 

Maybe Yoghi Bhajan is a 100% turquoise in your eyes. But not in my eyes. A rapist cannot be a human much less turquoise. 

That's exactly the reason why spiral dynamics has limited success when it comes to evaluating a person. 

It puts people on a pedestal. 

Don't follow people on the basis of what stage they belong to or appear to belong to. 

Follow real people with real principles, authentic personalities and great intentions. 

 

[Preety_India]

@Endangered-EGO I can summarize my opinion on the whole spiral dynamics issues in this way. 

Spiral dynamics thinking and character are two different things. There's a split between the two. 

So the spiral stage for both will be different. 

One spiral stage for thinking, opinions and intelligence 

Another spiral stage for character. 

What I mean is this 

When it comes to thinking I can consider Osho as Stage Yellow and sometimes stage Turquoise. 

When it comes to character, all these gurus are stage orange. 

 

They may have wise thoughts and solutions for human nature and humanity but they can significantly lack in altruism, purpose and empathy. So when it comes to character, they are far behind. 

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Preety_India