Sadhguru disapproves of psychedelics

[Lento]

7 hours ago, wavydude said:

Tell me what else is there other than direct experience?

Are you asking about the techniques that can be used to understand reality or about whether something else exists besides direct experience?

7 hours ago, wavydude said:

What thing did you deeply understood with something else then direct experience?

Psychedelics, for example. My understanding of them is based on research, contemplation, and observation of other people.

[cetus]

A direct experience is a direct experience no matter what the catalyst. When Truth shines it's undeniable.

[wavydude]

4 hours ago, Lento said:

Are you asking about the techniques that can be used to understand reality or about whether something else exists besides direct experience?

The latter.

4 hours ago, Lento said:

Psychedelics, for example. My understanding of them is based on research, contemplation, and observation of other people.

So you have little to non understanding of them and you  think you understand deeply. You sound like 12yo who saw porn video and now brags to his friends that he know what sex is. No, he doesn't know, he needs to have the experience to know and after that there is so so much more to explore. 

You talk like you know it all but you haven't even try. You stand at the feet of the mountain and you tell people what kind of view you have from the top. That's deep ignorance. 

[Lento]

@wavydude

I'm sorry. I can't communicate with a closed-mind. Unless you show signs of openness, I have nothing to say.

[Kensho]

2 hours ago, Lento said:

@wavydude

I'm sorry. I can't communicate with a closed-mind. Unless you show signs of openness, I have nothing to say.

You project your closemindedness to others.

By thinking that you know psychedelics by observing others it s like saying you know about meditation by looking others doing it, or by thinking you know the taste of an exotic fruit by looking at them eating it. 

YOU have to open your mind. Your stubborness is getting in your way to understand so many things. 

When you ll have your first psychedelic breakthrough, oh boy, that will be an epic dragging of the carpet under your feet. 

It will feel like this: (after 2:10)

The reality that  direct experience is the only way to know truth will be the biggest aha moment for you when you get it, and it  will catalyze your growth, till then you are just jumping between the little boxes in you mind. 

And the more messages like this one trigger you, the more it shows that this is the truth. 

You are trapped in your logic. It s not a bad thjng. I have been in that pitfall myself. 

Expand your consciousness.

Admit that you dont know. 

Open your eye

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Kensho

[wavydude]

@Lento There is openness here but the fact is that there is nothing more to discuss. You state you have deep understanding of psychs but you never tried it. That's ignorance. Take one decent does and see your "deep understanding" being melted like snow, see how much it's worth. 
Spoiler: Not much.

[Forestluv]

On 3/1/2020 at 3:35 AM, Lento said:

@Serotoninluv

I understand. Although, consider the following; say I've had one trip, whether psychedelic or not, in which I've "become" God and experienced multiple lifetimes, some of which were of highly experienced psychonauts like yourself. Now, this is not likely to be the case, but still, it could be. In the case of someone like Sadhguru, could that be the case? And if it was, would that make his opinions more legit say than someone like you or Leo?

I would say it depends on who decides what is “more legit”. There are a few neuroscientists researching psychedelics that understand psychedelics from a certain perspective, yet they have never tried them. I would say their opinions are legit and have value within that context. Yet, would they make a good trip sitter? Perhaps not. . . As well, I know psychologists that are interested in utilizing psychedelic therapy, yet have concerns. Even though they haven’t tripped, I think their opinions have value and should be integrated into the conversation about psychedelic therapy. . . . As well, Ram Dass tripped many times and later spoke of psychedelic traps, such as chasing experiences and escape. This is certainly one dynamic with psychedelics that I think has value at the personal level.

Can a being can trip once and be exposed to expansive, extraordinary revelations worth multiple lifetimes - I would say yes. Ime, these spaces are beyond my finite mind and I would consider psychedelics to be a much more expansive teacher than I. For example, I can easily imagine someone tripping once and learning more in a way that I couldn’t teach in an entire lifetime. My question would be more about how much can be “captured”, integrated and embodied by the being. Ime, the “ISness” of a trip is way beyond my mind’s ability to capture it all. The mind often wants to contextualize it into an “experience” and make sense of it. So, the question for me is not so much wether multiple lifetimes worth of “ISness” can be revealed, it is more about how is it contextualized. Ime, I tripped twice when I was 21y.o. Then I was sober and practiced meditation for 20+ years, with zero substances. I think this provided a deep, sturdy foundation. My next trip wasn’t until I was 45 y.o. . . . 24 years of sober meditation, personal development and growth. This trip was very very different than from when I was 21y.o, and it had a very different impact on the mind and body. For a couple days, I was dumbfounded - I couldn’t put it into words - even the term “I” no longer made sense. Yet underlying this, there was an understanding of egoic structure that had eluded me for 24 years of meditation, Buddhist sanghas, darma talks and retreats. This understanding has not wavered since the trip five years ago. So yes, Ime a person can trip once and have an understanding of psychedelics. Yet how a trip is contextualized is related to the person - the person’s filters, karma, prior conditioning etc. I see lots of trip reports from newbies that seem to be contextualized in a whacky and immature way.

Regarding Sadhguru, I don’t get the sense he has a good understanding of psychedelics. It’s not so much about the number of trips, it’s more about how he contextualizes them. In the video above, a woman asked about microdosing in the context of clarity and performance. Sadhguru goes into a dialog about the desire to enhance through drugs, legalization of drugs, he mixes together psychedelics with caffeine, cocaine and marijuana in the context that these are unnatural chemicals that cause cloudiness, an escape from what is here and now, and a work productivity boost. And drug dependency. . . . These are certainly dynamics with chemicals, yet this is only one dynamic - the dynamic that is aligned with his lifetime of meditation and teachings. To me, he is contextualizing chemicals together through his filter. I’m not saying this is wrong. It is limited. He doesn’t seem aware of other distinctions and nuances - and doesn’t understand other components of psychedelics. From other perspectives, psychedelics open doors to creativity and insight. And they are just as “now” as being sober. Chemicals like alcohol cause cloudiness away from here and now. Psychedelics can cause hyper-awareness to here and now. . . As well, there are many different relationships with psychedelics. For many, psychedelics are not a blissful escape from an uncomfortable now. Many people feel trepidation before their next trip. It is the opposite of wanting to escape. 

Yet this doesn’t mean that I think people who haven’t done psychedelics, or have only tripped a couple times, don’t have valid views on psychedelics. I think various views have value in different contexts. For example, suppose someone had their first trip and was working with a psychologist who had recently tripped her first time. They may resonate and connect together in trying to make sense of the trip. I may come in and forget what it’s like trying to acclimate from a first trip. In this context, my views could be counter-productive.

[Lento]

@Serotoninluv

I don't disagree with anything you said. All of this nuance is an indicator of experience. That is fantastic. Knowledge is great, no doubt. But, it's all just theory and mind games in the end. I don't see actual effects in practice. Most people trip and discover something deeply profound, and yet they are still the same people with the same patterns and hang-ups. This issue may be similar to what you referred to as "contextualization" of the trip, but I don't think so because this contextualization is still in the domain of theory and not practice. In this context, psychedelics seem like a great tool for mental masturbation.

Anyway, ignore everything I said, probably I am wrong. I'm now more interested in waiting for Leo to come back and show us some of the miracles he mentioned in his last video. That'll be the best way for settling this once and for all for me.

?

[RendHeaven]

On 3/2/2020 at 5:10 AM, Lento said:

@wavydude

I'm sorry. I can't communicate with a closed-mind. Unless you show signs of openness, I have nothing to say.

wow, the irony... 0_o

[Lento]

@RendHeaven

You will get it someday.

[RendHeaven]

@Lento lmao alright buddy

[Salvijus]

Hello

I will drop some info here. Maybe it be useful.

David Frawley writes on

the issue in his books "Ayurvedic Healing" and in "Yoga and Ayurveda".

 

Frawley writes in Ayurvedic Healing: "Drugs damage Sattva, the basic

clear nature of mind. Artificially driving the mind and nerves they

create Tamas, dullness, inertia, darkness and loss of perception, even

though their temporary action appears to be opposite of this."

 

"Hallucinogenic drugs function by temporarily increasing Tejas, the

mental fire. This results in the experience of color and heightened

perception, which may give a sense of the deeper powes of our

consciousness. But these drugs function by burning up Ojas, our subtle

vital reserve, causing long term depletion of our primary vitality.

Once Ojas is brought below a certain threshold, it is very difficult

for it to reconstitute itself. The result is drug burnout, a

vegetative state of mind. Hence, the number of times we can take

hallucinogenic drugs in a positive way is very limited."

 

"Mind altering drugs such as LSD or ecstasy aggravate Vata in

potentially severe manner. Artificially induced, temporarily

heightened sensitization of the nervous system leads to either

long-term desensitization or hypersesitivity. Symptoms of such include

insomnia, constipation, dry skin, weight loss, vertigo or light

headedness, loss of memory, loss of sencory acuity or coordination,

tremors, palptations and anxiety."

 

In "Yoga and Ayurveda" by Frawley there is very interesting chapter on

Prana, Tejas and Ojas, which gives much light on the issue. I must say

...

[TRUTHWITHCAPITALT]

On 26/02/2020 at 3:39 PM, Mongu9719 said:

Sadhguru disapproves of psychedelics but in this video he talks about weed and other drugs, so he seems a bit confused about what psychedelics actually are. I wonder if he would change his mind about them if he tried them. It would be really interesting to see how they would affect a mystic such as himself.

@Mongu9719 I like Sadhguru he gives great insights and is an advanced teacher.

However, I disagree with his stance on Psychedelics. It looks like he is stuck in the conventional morality paradigm where he is busy categorizing things as good and bad.

Moreover, being a celebrity has its own survival challenge of conformity to society's expectations. Society as we know it is the master of delusion and falsehood. If he tells the truth and stand against society by being heretic, blasphemous and irreverent his approval rating will tank. From the look of it he doesn't want that.

[Salvijus]

Sadhguru was talking about using chemicals that are unnatural to the human system to increase performance. He wasnt talking about psychedelics. It's a wrong title for the video.

Apply what he sayed to nootropics.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Salvijus what else does he say?

Insomnia And “energy issues” is exactly what Martin Ball is going through after years of 5MEO abuse.

I personally have no issue with Psyches, but surely there’s a reason 99.9% of teachers warn against abusing them? 

[Forestluv]

8 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Insomnia And “energy issues” is exactly what Martin Ball is going through after years of 5MEO abuse.

I personally have no issue with Psyches, but surely there’s a reason 99.9% of teachers warn against abusing them? 

Martin has had insomnia issues his whole life, long before he did 5meo. It’s unknown what impact, if any, 5meo had on his pre-existing condition. 

I’ve never heard of a spiritual teacher advocate for the abuse of anything - be that the abuse of animals, a spouse, vitamin A, exercise, medication, substances etc. This includes spiritual teachers that use psychedelics with their students. 

[Salvijus]

@LfcCharlie4 Just this, I saw this on the internet and shared. My ayurveda doctor sayed the same thing that psychedelics are not good for health and all those things come at a cost. Mantak Chia a great Taoist master also says exacly the same thing as ayurveda except in different terminology, he sayes that these substances use stored kidney's energy and other organs' energy leaving you drained and without energy. The whole purpose of spiritual evolution is to cultivate and increase your Ojas, not to drain it and become a vegetable. 

Also to quote Mantak Chia. "In Tao we have tried every plant, every substance on the planet and we know what it does to human system, we even tried immortal piu a combination of different metals and stones like mercury and precious stone to produce the ultimate drug for enlightenment and now we say no, that's not the way, we have to go back to natural ways of doing things"

Those circles are Ojas and play a crucial role in spiritual development.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Salvijus

[Javfly33]

On 21/3/2020 at 6:12 PM, Salvijus said:

"Mind altering drugs such as LSD or ecstasy aggravate Vata in

potentially severe manner. Artificially induced, temporarily

heightened sensitization of the nervous system leads to either

long-term desensitization or hypersesitivity. Symptoms of such include

insomnia, constipation, dry skin, weight loss, vertigo or light

headedness, loss of memory, loss of sencory acuity or coordination,

tremors, palptations and anxiety."
 

...

Well, isn´t that "enlightening". The guy is basically doctored in pharmacology, I suppose.

That what I´m quoting is basically a Straw man fallacy. Those are effects that could arise usually from the abuse of the drugs. Which is more funny is that those effects have nothing to do with psychedelics in particular but a lot of drugs that doesn´t alter consciousness could easily cause those effects when used (or abused, usually).

It doesn´t take a genius to see that your source is biased against psychedelics/hallucinogens. (Something that doesn´t surprise to me tbh. Gurus don´t like tools that can provide states and insights in one session vs sometimes years would take traditional methods).

Having said that, I´m not saying one thing is best and other. Honestly I think the best path is using the best tools that resonate with you. I honestly have beneffited tremendously with Yoga, yet when I read certain Yoga gurus advising agains psychedelics, I can´t help but laugh since thanks to them I have been able to progress in the Yoga practice exponentially.

[Gnosis]

@Javfly33 Psychedelics do aggravate Vata.

If you have no understanding of Ayurveda, please do not automatically disregard these statements.

All those following statements are not outrageous statements, whoever wrote them was just listing potential symptoms of Vata dominance (in an exaggerated manner).

To be clear, just meditation and self-inquiry alone can aggravate Vata; in reality, the statements are really not saying much.

Yes, in this day there seems to be fairly evident dogma and bias against the use of psychedelics; in many cases on the part of beings who haven't personally investigated the very real potential there for themselves.

It does not however, automatically mean that all the arguments are completely baseless.

I hope my statements have brought clarity to this discussion.

[Gnosis]

In other words,

3 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’ve never heard of a spiritual teacher advocate for the abuse of anything - be that the abuse of animals, a spouse, vitamin A, exercise, medication, substances etc. This includes spiritual teachers that use psychedelics with their students.