sister battling opiod withdrawals, shrooms?

[montecristo]

My sister has been battling opiate addiction (specifically oxycontin) for the last 2 years following a bad car accident that invovled the replacement of a cervical disc in her neck.

She recently had another surgery a few weeks ago related to the car accident after which she was dosed with fentanyl by the doctors. This kicked off a binge on the oxy, which she cannot get more of apparently. 

She has already experienced terrible withdrawal symptoms and plans on taking Suboxone. I have heard that the withdrawals for suboxone are worse so i suggested she stay on the oxy and try to ween off of that in conjunction with some kind of psychedelic breakthrough to catalyze quitting.

I have 18 grams of mushrooms on hand, I hear about it principally for depression and anxiety treatment while ibogaine and 5 meo are more implicated for drug addiction right? She has never taken any classic psychedelics but had a ketamine infusion over the past year that she said wasnt effective for her depression or addiiction.

Does anyone have experience with this? Can anyone refer me to a psychedelic psychotherapist perhaps?

[Forestluv]

Pyschedelics have been shown to help with drug addictions, especially cigarette/nicotine addiction. There may be some physical benefits of the psychedelics - yet my guess is it is mostly metaphysical - as one gets a transcendent view/experience.

At a physical level, opioid addiction/dependency is deep and broad. It screws up dopamine pathways, nociceptive (pain pathways), the endocrine system and the autonomic nervous system (homeostasis stuff like digestion, breathing, heart rate, blood pressure etc) and more. The body creates a new homeostasis dependent on the opioids and withdrawal will be physically and mentally horrendous. 

Shrooms may help with that attachment/identification to the physical/mental suffering - yet it's not going to re-establish healthy homeostasis of dopamine, nociceptive, endocrine and ANS systems. That will take time. In my pov, psychedelics could help with the relationship with the withdrawal pain - for example, they may get a tanscendent experience beyond self and have a new relationship with the pain occurring in the mind and body such that its not bothersome - it could also allow for a meta view of how she is living her life, the nature of her addiction and how to better love her mind and body - this could have a lot of value and help one to overcome an addiction and transform their life. As well, shrooms could help with anxiety. Yet I doubt it would have much impact on the biological physiology of the withdrawal pain. 

If I went in this direction, I would be careful with intention, mindset and expectations. I would not set up hope and expectations that the shrooms will significantly reduce or eliminate the withdrawal pain. Rather, I would frame it more like shrooms could help such that the withdrawal pain may not bother her so much and help to break the addiction.

Edit: as others have written below, ibogaine is a better option than shrooms.

[outlandish]

Great answer from @Serotoninluv 

I know peripherally about a study that is underway looking at using mushrooms as a treatment for opioid addiction. It sounds promising, but the jury is out.

Ibogaine/Iboga treatment has been very effective for some people, but it carries cardiac risks and should be conducted under careful medical supervision. Ibogaine is a tryptamine somewhat related structurally to the drug in magic mushrooms. The hope is that mushrooms will have a lot of the benefit with a lot less of the risk of iboga.

[Leo Gura]

Nothing comes close to ibogaine for opioid withdrawal. Ibgaine resets the brain's opioid receptors effortlessly.

Tell her to fly to Canada, Mexico, or Costa Rica to an ibogaine clinic.

Ibogaine must be administered by a nurse. You cannot do it at home.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Nothing comes close to ibogaine for opioid withdrawal. Ibgaine resets the brain's opioid receptors effortlessly.

Tell her to fly to Canada, Mexico, or Costa Rica to an ibogaine clinic.

Ibogaine must be administered by a nurse. You cannot do it at home.

Ibogaine is like the psychedelic version of "scared straight" 

 

(salvia too)

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

Good video: 

 

 

[Corpus]

What is her daily dose of oxycodone?

How motivated is she to quit?

There are certain options which can help with the acute withdrawal but I wouldn't put psilocybin amongst them. Using psilocybin after the acute withdrawal could help foster some useful insights, but again, this would really depend on her motivations.

[Forestluv]

Here is a recent clinical / observational study with ibogaine treatment of opioid addiction and withdrawal. Impressive results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996271/

[OBEler]

you can do ibogaine at home, you just need a very trustfully trip sitter and something to puke in. nothing else. many people recovered from this.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

11 minutes ago, OBEler said:

you can do ibogaine at home, you just need a very trustfully trip sitter and something to puke in. nothing else. many people recovered from this.

It can be cardiotoxic at certain doses for different people. Isn't just like salvia where you need a tripsitter to make sure you don't jump out a window. You could have a fatal reaction if you take a bigger dose needed to treat addiction in this case, not to mention the trip lasts 24 hours. Is a trip sitter going to stay awake with you for 24 hours?

[Corpus]

22 minutes ago, OBEler said:

you can do ibogaine at home, you just need a very trustfully trip sitter and something to puke in. nothing else. many people recovered from this.

Don't forget the defibrillator.

You really need to have an ECG/EKG and liver function tests performed before using ibogaine; its potentially lethal stuff. 

[montecristo]

Thanks so much for the input everyone, i'm looking at ibogaine treatment clinics in Mexico, I found one that seems legitimate. 8 days long and $9k idk if that's reasonable but may just be what it costs. Idk if anyone can reccomend one they or someone they know has experience with.

A note on suboxone, according to the clinic suboxone is a whole different beast when it comes to withdrawal. Many people never come off of it, they told me on the phone that coming off of suboxone makes coming off of  oxy look like "a walk in the park" and that it renders the ibogaine treatment totally ineffective. 

What sucks is that suboxone may be the only stop gap solution she has because she cant get more oxy on short notice.

 

48 minutes ago, Corpus said:

What is her daily dose of oxycodone?

How motivated is she to quit?

There are certain options which can help with the acute withdrawal but I wouldn't put psilocybin amongst them. Using psilocybin after the acute withdrawal could help foster some useful insights, but again, this would really depend on her motivations.

100-200 mg of oxy per day. She has kids and something to live for, plus scared shitless of the withdrawals so i think she's motivated.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

@montecristo

Have you looked into kratom for beating opioid withdrawals? This has helped many people come off opioids. Its not a long-term solution like ibogaine, but is much, much better for you than opioids. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by TrynaBeTurquoise

[montecristo]

she has some and it doesnt seem to be effective.

maybe she should up the kratom dose dramatically?

[Corpus]

1 minute ago, montecristo said:

Thanks so much for the input everyone, i'm looking at ibogaine treatment clinics in Mexico, I found one that seems legitimate. 8 days long and $9k idk if that's reasonable but may just be what it costs. Idk if anyone can reccomend one they or someone they know has experience with.

A note on suboxone, according to the clinic suboxone is a whole different beast when it comes to withdrawal. Many people never come off of it, they told me on the phone that coming off of suboxone makes coming off of  oxy look like "a walk in the park" and that it renders the ibogaine treatment totally ineffective. 

What sucks is that suboxone may be the only stop gap solution she has because she cant get more oxy on short notice.

 

100-200 mg of oxy per day. She has kids and something to live for, plus scared shitless of the withdrawals so i think she's motivated.

Suboxone is a tough one because its a much longer haul, less intense than oxy but leaves you wiped-out with PAWS (Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome) for a couple of years once established then cured of it.

Opiate withdrawals are scary. Please don't take this the wrong way but if someone can "get by" on 100mg/day then taking 200mg is a bit of an indulgence.

If you can get them, the following can be useful BUT you would need to educate yourself re best use:

1.Loperamide;

2.Seroquel (quetiapine);

3.Clonidine;

4.Some people have also found dissociatives to be vey useful, though I note ketamine didn't help.

5.Benzodiazepines.

Message me if you wish.    

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

Just now, montecristo said:

she has some and it doesnt seem to be effective.

maybe she should up the kratom dose dramatically?

It may be the kratom itself. Theres shitty smoke-shop kratom that is an inferior product with all sorts of heavy metals. And then there are reputable vendors online which sell clean product. 

A higher dose may be needed. Maybe around 8-10 grams (completely relative to what she is taking now) a typical 3-4g dose may be peanuts compared to what she needs. I wouldnt go beyond 10 though to start (who knows though for an opioid addict, you need to experiment but start reasonably)

Good thing with kratom you can't overdose, at worst you will just get an unpleasant nauseous feeling if you take too much.  

If she gets results from 10g for example, you would then methodically lower the dosage very gradually to keep finding the minimal effective dose. 

[outlandish]

26 minutes ago, Corpus said:

Don't forget the defibrillator.

You really need to have an ECG/EKG and liver function tests performed before using ibogaine; its potentially lethal stuff. 

Exactly. Extreme caution with this one. Of course you have to weigh the risk of a heart attack against the risk of a life-destroying opioid addiction.

[Aaron p]

<3

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

you can do ibogaine at home, you just need a very trustfully trip sitter and something to puke in. nothing else. many people recovered from this.

No! Do not even think of doing that.

Opioid treatment requires a large flood dose. If you get the dose wrong you will kill yourself. This is no joke.

Iboga is not like other psychedelics. You can kill the body with this one.

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura exactly, you can kill yourself. but only if you do ibogaine treatment wrong.. the clinics want to tell you only with a doctor is this possible. but that is marketing. furthermore  some clinics you cannot trust. they offer bad service. 

with a lot of research and if you really have someone who is an experienced trip sitter you can do it at home. do an EKG, and electrolyte and liver function tests before this. if you can calculate the dose right and have someone who is watching you for 24 hours it is possible.

But of course this should be your last option. I still would recommend anyone not doing this at home and do this with a doctor at least. if there is a trustfully clinic around you it is worth the money. but find one first..

there are some deadly incidents not because of ibogaine treatment but the time after. this stuff is 3 months in your body. if you take opioids directly after again you can die. here is the risk.

Edited February 27, 2020 by OBEler