What distinguishes science or religious, etc. "beliefs" from everything here?

[Roy]

Science is built upon certain assumptions and beliefs about reality, which is attached to and defended by people being taught or experiencing facts/mathematics/experiments.

Religion is built upon certain assumptions and beliefs about reality, which is attached to and defended by people being taught or experiencing religious history/dogma/traditions.

Actualized.Org or any other alternative is built upon assumptions and beliefs about reality, which is attached to and defended by people being taught or experiencing first person phenomena/contemplation/reflection.

If one is to self-actualize, improve them-self, or go about their life trying to understand the world in any capacity, it's always just an attempt. Nobody can ever truly claim they've got the "holy grail", because if they are ACTUALLY honest with themselves and doing true questioning and reflection of their themselves, their beliefs, and their worldviews they'll find that everything is groundless. People are going to sit on the thing that they like most or makes the most sense to their ego, until they are shown otherwise and move to the next best thing from wherever they're at.

Is it a fair statement to say that even those who are enlightened, involved in these kind of communities, and even Leo himself aren't completely in touch with that? Otherwise why spend any energy, time, or resources in ones life criticizing, defending, or espousing if it's hypocrisy? After all, everyone is just trying to make an attempt at understanding reality to the best of their capacity are they not? The religious criticize the uncivilized, The scientists criticize the religious, the post-rationalists and spiritual criticize the scientists, then so on and and so on.

My point is isn't the real work to be positionless? Instead of resting in the sea of life with ones arms attached to a buoy, shouldn't one be perpetually swimming and treading water for infinity to really be growing? Is resting in any capacity a failure by spiritual introspective standards?

Is the only true indicator of a teachings or ideologies "truth" and validity the amount of hostility it projects outwards into the world? Because as people move up the spiral they obviously get less violent and less needy to convert others.

I'm just curious how people feel about this. I by no means am enlightened or anything, just another trying to make sense of things.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Roy

[mandyjw]

Even being positionless is still a position. No teacher or organization can be positionless. The irony is that you have to pick a certain direction to point your finger in, even if you want to point at nothing. It's not about the position of actualized.org, it's where you meet it. It's more like moving with the current, swimming downstream, always at rest, always at motion. We are used to pushing against things to make them happen, we are used to having a lot of beliefs that exclude us from ever experiencing or realizing certain things. Just like the irony of having to chose a direction to point at nothing, you sometimes have to entertain new beliefs to unravel old ones. 

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, Roy said:

Nobody can ever truly claim they've got the "holy grail", because if they are ACTUALLY honest with themselves and doing true questioning and reflection of their themselves, their beliefs, and their worldviews they'll find that everything is groundless. 

I would say there is no "holy grail". That would be a thing/point/place/state that is not another thing/point/place/state.

The ideas about what is actual, honest, themselves, questioning, reflections, beliefs, worldviews etc. can all be transcended - the whole kit-n-kaboodle. Rather than calling that "groundless", I prefer the term "Nothing".

31 minutes ago, Roy said:

Is it a fair statement to say that even those who are enlightened, involved in these kind of communities, and even Leo himself aren't completely in touch with that? Otherwise why spend any energy, time, or resources in ones life criticizing, defending, or espousing if it's hypocrisy?

Criticism, defending, espousing, hypocrisy etc. are dynamics of duality, attachment and identification. When this is actualized, there is an energetic shift into exploration and creation. . . It's a very different energetic orientation. Personally, I don't see Leo as a criticizer / defender - I see him as an explorer / creator.

[Roy]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Even being positionless is still a position.

Isn't that untrue? To be truly positionless is the absence of all qualities of any position.

I'm going to challenge myself and guess that I'm going to have to concede I'll always have some beliefs and let go of my attachment to radical openmindedness?

[Roy]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

I would say there is no "holy grail".

Just for the sake of conversation, why would you say that?

It appears to me that pretty much everyone in the world that has their basic survival taken care of and has the luxury of pursuing these abstract goals, especially like those in this community and Leo himself talk about obtaining these insights and experiences as if they are holy grails.

For example I understand "nothing" conceptually (I think :P), but having not gone through a transcendent enlightenment experience of realizing nothing I am still in a state of pursuing that particular holy grail/insight. 

Even the process of transcending and realizing "nothing" is a holy grail right? (a thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after.)

I apologize for being so antagonistic, I've just had a hard time grasping and embodying non-duality. I'll need to get back and watch Leo's series on it and read some books.

I have a feeling the conclusion of this line of thinking is like the 10th Ox herding picture of Zen? Once you reach all those states and transcend you return to the marketplace and come full circle?

[Leo Gura]

@Roy What you're missing is that Absolute Truth exists. And it is absolutely Absolute.

You can be 100% conscious of what everything is. But not through science, relgion, or belief.

The map is not the territory.

The real work is to stop with the maps and become the territory.

[Nahm]

“What distinguishes science or religious, etc. "beliefs" from everything here?”

...you. Obvious, or no?

[Preety_India]

You could believe whatever you want as long as it helps your life. 

Feelings don't come in the category of science. Because you can't see or touch them

 

Therefore everything both scientific and non tangential is a part of reality 

You could use literally any path to reach to your truth. But there's no point discussing the path itself. 

It's the truth that matters more than the path that leads to it.. 

 

[Adam M]

The content here is more tier 2.

The concepts are very meta. Focusing on mechanics of mind that you yourself can become conscious of, as opposed to spoon-feeding you ideology.

It is rare that you find any system of thought to have Actualized.org's self-awareness. It's not like science or religion is aware of what ego is, what ideology is, or how knowledge works.

There is a big emphasis on personal contemplation, the videos acting as guiding pillars or launching points for your own contemplation.

To an outsider, it may seem like the content on this website is a big new-age cult circle jerk of ideology.

But, of course, that's the ego's projection. Ironically, everything that the outsider believes is likely absorbed from mainstream culture, which is the biggest circle jerk of ideology that there is.

I think it's important to discern that the CONTENT of what Leo says is not absolutely true and is always fallible.

However, Leo's content consistently points to the STRUCTURE of mind, self, and reality. Which you can discover for yourself to be whichever way that it is. This is what Leo calls "the Absolute." Leo's descriptions of the Absolute are always partial and can easily be taken on as an ideology (even though he warns against it).

It's easy to intuit that much of the content here is being taught from a high elevation of consciousness, mostly Yellow, Turquoise and beyond.

Religion and Science is mostly Blue and Orange.

So that's the difference.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Adam M

[Forestluv]

16 hours ago, Roy said:

Just for the sake of conversation, why would you say that?

It appears to me that pretty much everyone in the world that has their basic survival taken care of and has the luxury of pursuing these abstract goals, especially like those in this community and Leo himself talk about obtaining these insights and experiences as if they are holy grails.

For example I understand "nothing" conceptually (I think :P), but having not gone through a transcendent enlightenment experience of realizing nothing I am still in a state of pursuing that particular holy grail/insight. 

Even the process of transcending and realizing "nothing" is a holy grail right? (a thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after.)

In that context, we could say there are "holy grails". For example, in Leo's video on facets of awakening, we could consider those facets as holy grails. . . This context has separation of time and space - i.e. there is a thing (holy grail) that I don't currently have, yet would like to attain in the future. This would involve practice and growth over time. From this view, growth is infinite - there are always more holy grails available.

In another context, there is a realization that cannot be found in the timeline. It cannot be found "out there". It can only be realized Here and Now. In this context, the journey is the destination. 

[BETGR164128]

@Roy Its a better set of beliefs. Look man, what's the alternative? Sitting in some bar letting a drunk lonely dude bore the living fuck out of you while you politely try to make conversation because you're told that if you don't play by "their" rules you're a loser? 

[Roy]

1 hour ago, Adam M said:

It's easy to intuit that much of the content here is being taught from a high elevation of consciousness, mostly Yellow, Turquoise and beyond.

Religion and Science is mostly Blue and Orange.

So that's the difference.

You see, that judgement right there is what I'm getting at. The act of participating in the game of making distinctions and pointing out differences in the "content" (between science/religion/new-age) is the failure of open-mindedness and perspective, because regardless of what content people attribute to themselves we're all coming from the same starting point or "structure" of making an attempt at understanding reality. Make no mistake, it is always an attempt, because you'll always discard something to move onto the next most convenient or relevant thing.

I'm not arguing that the higher up in the spiral or development one reaches there aren't more favorable qualities like consciousness, awareness, reflection, non-violence compared to the lower end.

I'm just pointing out I think this is center of why there seems to be a lack of authentic humility even among the most advanced of us.

This lack of humility can be a subtle thorn that stunts the development of those considered lower on the spiral.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Roy

[Roy]

@Leo Gura I agree, and I'm genuinely pursuing becoming more of the territory.

It's just where I'm currently at one of the concerns I have is how does one discern the territory they discover isn't truly any different from the maps of religion, science, or belief?

Is radical open-mindedness discarded temporarily so the Absolute can be embraced?

[Roy]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

In that context, we could say there are "holy grails". For example, in Leo's video on facets of awakening, we could consider those facets as holy grails. . . This context has has separation of time and space - i.e. there is a thing (holy grail) that I don't currently have, yet would like to attain in the future. This would involve practice and growth over time. From this view, growth is infinite - there are always more holy grails available.

In another context, there is a realization that cannot be found in the timeline. It cannot be found "out there". It can only be realized Here and Now. In this context, the journey is the destination. 

That's very helpful @Serotoninluv thanks.

[Leo Gura]

40 minutes ago, Roy said:

It's just where I'm currently at one of the concerns I have is how does one discern the territory they discover isn't truly any different from the maps of religion, science, or belief?

See my videos: What Is Actuality and How To Discover What Is True

[Preety_India]

3 hours ago, Johnny5 said:

Ultimately the territory itself disappears beneath your feet (Leo doesn't know this yet). Maps and territories are ultimately just more layers of the onion. But you can't really skip to the end, you peel off the layers from the outside in. You unmask one fraud to reveal the one beneath it, until you've unmasked them all.

So what's at the center of the onion after it has been peeled completely? 

 

[Preety_India]

@Johnny5 I think you are hinting at nothingness

 

[Roy]

@Leo Gura I've finished rewatching, "What is Actuality". I still remember what you've said in it since I watched it a year ago, and I've noticed I've changed my orientation more towards first person experience vs concepts and ideas. So progress!

Though I think I've pinpointed the answer to what has been nagging me at me, but I'd like your input if you don't mind;

The distinction between science, religion, and other modes of thought compared to the ones discussed here is that although they also use first person experience as well, they ascribe far too many qualities, context, and labels during and after the experience. So much so that they have gone through and ignored the actuality. Building unnecessary and dysfunctional paradigms in the process.

It's like scoring a soccer ball on goalposts with no net, they already scored and they just keep on dribbling the ball having not realized it!

The conscious decontextualization of experience is key.

 

[Consilience]

The irony is to truly understand the deep metaphysics of what actualized.org teaches, you have to let go of all of tour beliefs. So really, instead of trying to find the beliefs in actualized.org, find the beliefs within your self and let them go. As Leo already said, the map is not the territory. None of what Leo speaks about in the videos are what he’s really pointing to. With science and religion, what they point to with their beliefs they actually believe are real.