People who have experienced ego death - why do you keep your money?

[VeganAwake]

@GreenWoods

I understand what you're saying good stuff...

Here's a possibility...

The Boundless Energy of everything is free and unconditioned until it takes form... once the Big Bang occurred and physical form appeared the conditioning started...

Your great great great grandmother conditioned your great-great-grandmother your great-great grandmother conditioned your great-grandmother who then conditioned your grandmother who then conditioned your mom who probably conditioned You... of course along with all of society's conditioning as well or you could say the environments conditioning.

So whenever an action is made the human body is reacting according to its conditioning and there is a false sense of self that is claiming it is the one making these decisions. Even if it appears random the human body is still making a decision as fast as possible and the false self is claiming that it made the decision.

So do you think it's possible that Free Will and choice is an absolute illusion... very interesting right? ❤

Edited February 27, 2020 by VeganAwake

[Prabhaker]

On 2/24/2020 at 6:45 PM, crab12 said:

Classic example is Osho, reporters would always ask him "why do you have 92 Rolls Royce's?"....................

surely 92 luxury cars, just to troll the journalists and outsiders, would seem like a wasteful use of wealth / value.

Why are people concerned? Then certainly they need it; then more Rolls Royces will be here. Until they stop asking me, more and more Rolls Royces are going to be here. Now it has to be seen that it is a challenge: the day nobody asks me about Rolls Royces, they will not be coming.

People's interest in Rolls Royces shows their mind. They are not interested what is happening here. They don't ask about meditation, they don't ask about sannyas, they don't ask about people's life, love, the laughter that happens in this desert. They only ask about Rolls Royces. That means I have touched some painful nerve. And I will go on pressing it till they stop asking.

I am not a worshipper of poverty. That's what those Rolls Royces prove. I respect wealth. Nobody before me had the guts to say it. The pope cannot say that he respects wealth, although he is the wealthiest man on the earth.

I am not a hypocrite. I am the poorest man on the earth. I don't have a single cent with me. But I want to show these people what attracts their mind. If there were no Rolls Royces here, perhaps there would be nothing for the whole world ask about me, about you, about meditation, about initiation into sannyas, about love, about anything. It is for those idiots that I am keeping all those Rolls Royces, because they cannot move their eyes away from those Rolls Royces. And meanwhile I will go on pouring other things in their minds. Without those Rolls Royces they would not have asked a single question.

Those Rolls Royces are doing their work. Every idiot around the world is interested in them. And I want them to be somehow interested—in anything in Rajneeshpuram. Then we will manage about other things.

So tell those people—when anybody asks, tell them that "These Rolls Royces are for you idiots. Otherwise you are not interested in anything." Once they stop asking about Rolls Royces, then I will have to think of something else, whether to have rockets which are going to the moon…. I will have to think of something else. 

~ OSHO

Edited February 28, 2020 by Prabhaker

[Prabhaker]

On 2/24/2020 at 6:45 PM, crab12 said:

why don't give all your money to me? Checkmate!

By renouncing money I am not going to become more meditative. Money is not a problem, possessiveness is real problem. A beggar can become possessive to his begging bowl.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Prabhaker OSHO saying it like it is, the guy had his problems but this is true. Many teachers are afraid to talk about topics such as Money and Sex and avoid them as much as possible, I have great respect for anyone who addresses these head on. It's what drew me towards my teachers, they're 'regular' people who are in a relationship, have sex, and the Women has 3 children, makes it more relatable  

 

6 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

By renouncing money I am not going to become more meditative. Money is not a problem, possessiveness is real problem. A beggar can become possessive to his begging bowl.

Thank YOU!!! You can still enjoy material things without being attached and identified with them, that intense attachment and identification with them is the problem, or thinking they can bring you happiness.  

Some attachment quotes- 

“Try not to confuse attachment with love. Attachment is about fear and dependency and has more to do with love of self than love of another. Love without attachment is the purest love because it isn’t about what others can give you because you’re empty. It is about what you can give others because you’re already full.” Yasmin Mogahed

“Non-attachment is not indifference. When you are indifferent, you don’t look at a person. You are walking along the street and somebody is dying of thirst, but you will not look at him. If you are non-attached, your inner being will compel you to give him a glass of water. But if he doesn’t drink it, you will not feel sad or angry.”

Contrary to what some people might believe, there is nothing wrong with having pleasures and enjoyments. What is wrong is the confused way we grasp onto these pleasures, turning them from a source of happiness into a source of pain and dissatisfaction.

Lama Yeshe

[crab12]

18 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

If that is the case, then it would make sense that generally speaking, the deeper your awakening = the deeper your embodiment = the more altruistic you become. Wouldn't it?

Your reasoning makes sense to me, and is supported by what I've noticed from real life experience of myself and others.

1 hour ago, Prabhaker said:

...

Without those Rolls Royces they would not have asked a single question.

And meanwhile I will go on pouring other things in their minds. Without those Rolls Royces they would not have asked a single question.

...

~ OSHO

Notice that Osho himself sees the Rolls Royce's as a form of altruism, so to speak. Their purpose is to spark the interest of the unenlightened masses, to get the foot in the door. Can't say I disagree with Osho on that, on Youtube, inane boring garbage gets 100M's of views while Leo's new videos get less than 50k views.

It seems that different people have different understanding of "altruism" and then demand each other to conform to their version of "altruism".

18 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

I assumed without investigating that the body has free will. I thought, as there is no ego then the body must have free will. But how can the body have free will? What exactly would have free will? I feel like this free-will thing is only possible with some seperate entity having it, which obviously doesn't exist. Therefore I think that the 2. possibility (influencing factors + randomness) is most likely how it works. Or as close as I get to with my current understanding.

You see the body as a machine that processes the inputs and delivers the logical output. I too used to assume that I have free will, I think most ordinary people think that they have free will. Then a lot of progress later, with horror, I recognized the machine-like quality in myself and recognized there is no free will and no control over behavior, the body just executes on the patterns in the mind. Then even more progress later I noticed I do have some control, by directing my awareness, I can choose which patterns the body executes on, influence the end result of the pattern, and gaining more and more control.

Currently, I think that there is free will again. Just from my own life experience. And the (fuzzy) rationale behind it is that, the magic bubble which is "me", and separate from yours (in the sense that I can't hear your thoughts, see your field of vision, or feel your emotions - the way I can with my own), is a fragment of the infinite mind. It thinks it is separate and has forgotten about oneness, but it's actually a part of the whole, and therefore it has inherited free will of the infinite mind.

[LfcCharlie4]

@crab12 If you've truly seen through the illusion of the separate self, Free Will is a non-issue, there is no self for there to be Free Will. Free will only is relevant if you still believe yourself to be a separate entity, even if you theoretically know you are not. 

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/is_the_physical_body_of_any_importance_whatever_183 (also describes how we shouldn't excuse things by using Neo-Advaita/ a veneer of Non-Duality) 

 

[zeroISinfinity]

Free will /determinsim. 

If you do not love posting and reading this. Would you make that choice? 

Love makes you do things you do. 

 

[GreenWoods]

@LfcCharlie4

In moments I am lost in the illusion (which is the large majority of the time) and act as though I were a seperate self, I tend to be more selfish. If there is additional work to do in my parent's household, I tend to stay away from it unless I am directly asked whether I want to do it.

In moments I am conscious that I am the Self, then this body tends to want to help others even if that means discomfort for that particular body. Not because there is a "belief" that it should be like that, but because it feels like the most obvious and natural thing to do. As obvious as it is for a cat not to bite it's own tail.

So in my direct experience, more conscious = less selfish

 

@VeganAwake

On 2/27/2020 at 8:42 PM, VeganAwake said:

So whenever an action is made the human body is reacting according to its conditioning

So that's basically the same as what I called influencing factors?

On 2/27/2020 at 8:42 PM, VeganAwake said:

So do you think it's possible that Free Will and choice is an absolute illusion...

Yes, I think that's the case. But in what way does no free will contradict the following:

On 2/27/2020 at 8:18 PM, GreenWoods said:

. That would mean that it is only a matter of how deep you go with your awakening till the selfless factors eventually outweigh the survival factors and you buy that car for the poor friend. 

If that is the case, then it would make sense that generally speaking, the deeper your awakening = the deeper your embodiment = the more altruistic you become. Wouldn't it?

 

 

@crab12

22 hours ago, crab12 said:

 I noticed I do have some control, by directing my awareness, I can choose which patterns the body executes on,

But how is your awareness directed at something? Isn't that just the result of influencing factors?

22 hours ago, crab12 said:

Currently, I think that there is free will again. Just from my own life experience. And the (fuzzy) rationale behind it is that, the magic bubble which is "me", and separate from yours (in the sense that I can't hear your thoughts, see your field of vision, or feel your emotions - the way I can with my own), is a fragment of the infinite mind. It thinks it is separate and has forgotten about oneness, but it's actually a part of the whole, and therefore it has inherited free will of the infinite mind.

As I understand it, God creates the illusion of splitting itself up into many individual consciousnesses. (Though of course, in the end there is only one Consciousness). One Individual consciousness is conscious of the feelings, emotions, thoughts,.. of crab12.  And another individual consciousness is conscious of the feelings, emotions, thoughts,... of GreenWoods. And this individual consciousness is what I think you meant with "I":

22 hours ago, crab12 said:

 I can't hear your thoughts, see your field of vision, or feel your emotions - the way I can with my own),

and with "fragment of the infinite mind".

In my experience, this individual consciousness has no control or influence, it just is, and observes/is conscious of what happens.

[LfcCharlie4]

@GreenWoods I agree on less selfish, I never said I didn’t, that’s expressing love. 
 

all I said was it doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy your own life too mate  

Awakening to love will show you this truly ?

but acting selfless at the Expense of your self consistently is different, and often coming from a sense of lack / personality type. 
 

as in say you have a doctors appointment that’s serious, but someone needs something from you at the same time, you don’t HAVE to do what the other wants to show how “selfless” you are, it’s about finding that balance, and helping others without meaning you end up worse off  

 

[GreenWoods]

21 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@GreenWoods I agree on less selfish,

 

 

So you agree with: the more awake = the less selfish.

That also means: even more awake = even less selfish.

You can be 60% selfless and 40% selfish. Or you can be 95% selfless and 5% selfish. Depending on the depth of your awakening (generally speaking).

Do you fully comprehend what 95% selfless and 5% selfish means?

That means if you have the decison between going to cinema or using that time and money for a good cause, then you would not decide for the cinema, that means you would not go to cinema, watch tv, eat more than you need, go on holiday,...

Basically behave like Ramana Maharshi, Jesus or Babaji perhaps behaved.

I don't say that one should behave that way, nor that an enlightened person should behave that way, but that, the more awake you get, the more you naturally tend towards that direction. 

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@GreenWoods Realize the truth of your own being, abide as that and then come back here, that’s all I will say  

Instead of speculating actually go and awaken, then you will understand what I mean.

Currently you are simply speculating how one should behave, true awakening gives us complete freedom, and yes love deepens, but does that mean we can’t enjoy our own life? No.

[crab12]

22 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@crab12 If you've truly seen through the illusion of the separate self, Free Will is a non-issue, there is no self for there to be Free Will. Free will only is relevant if you still believe yourself to be a separate entity, even if you theoretically know you are not. 

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/is_the_physical_body_of_any_importance_whatever_183 (also describes how we shouldn't excuse things by using Neo-Advaita/ a veneer of Non-Duality) 

 

I very much enjoy how Rupert Spira explains things things, thanks I'll check it out when I get the chance. In your everyday life experience, do you feel that you are watching a movie with no control over how things progress? I understand the reasoning behind no free will, but that would be a blatant denial of my experience of life.

20 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

@crab12

But how is your awareness directed at something? Isn't that just the result of influencing factors?

By "directing my awareness" I mean the most basic process of focusing on your little left toe, then on your nose, then on your right butt cheek etc. What create actual changes in the direction of my life are realizations. And realizations happen not from new input from external world, but by focusing inwards, away from external stimuli, away from thoughts. It very much feels like the realizations come from a state of non-influence, from somewhere else.

20 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

In my experience, this individual consciousness has no control or influence, it just is, and observes/is conscious of what happens.

How do you describe your life experience? Is it like watching a movie?

Also, what's on your take on the phenomenon that "you" cannot see "my" field of vision or hear "my" thoughts? Even if you see through the illusion of separateness the gap still remains. No matter how high consciousness you reach, the gap still remains.

[LfcCharlie4]

@crab12 the point is, it’s not about having or not having free will, I am not saying “I believe there is no free will” 

if you believe there is a separate self, then from that POV, it seems there is the free will of a self who decides. 
 

when that is seen through, and all is known as The Absolute, we see that all there is, is that there is no self to have free will/ no free will, so my point is the argument is only relevant from the POV of having a separate self. 

 

 

[GreenWoods]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:31 AM, crab12 said:

By "directing my awareness" I mean the most basic process of focusing on your little left toe, then on your nose, then on your right butt cheek etc. What create actual changes in the direction of my life are realizations. And realizations happen not from new input from external world, but by focusing inwards, away from external stimuli, away from thoughts. It very much feels like the realizations come from a state of non-influence, from somewhere else.

How does focusing on your toe happen? I would say it's a result of a feeling, emotion, thought or sensation.

On 3/1/2020 at 10:31 AM, crab12 said:

How do you describe your life experience? Is it like watching a movie?

Watching a movie has a duality, the watcher and the watched. When this body pays attention to what is happening, then it seems like everything is unfolding by its own, and I am all that. When this body looks at a table, then am I the table or the one who is conscious of the table?  I am not totally sure yet, it's subtle, but it feels like I am the table and there is no one who is conscious of the table. Being the table and being conscious of the table is the same. But I don't know whether that's true, I haven't read it somewhere, but it's like it currently seems.

 

On 3/1/2020 at 10:31 AM, crab12 said:

Also, what's on your take on the phenomenon that "you" cannot see "my" field of vision or hear "my" thoughts? Even if you see through the illusion of separateness the gap still remains. No matter how high consciousness you reach, the gap still remains.

The way I make sense of it is this:

Imagine a jellyfish. The jellyfish head is the Godhead and each tentacle is one indivdual self plus its peception bubble. The whole jellyfish is God. Whenever the jellyfish head (=Godhead) focuses on one tentacle (= being incarnated in a human body) it believes that it is that tentacle. When a tentacle 'awakens', the jellyfish head realizes that it is the whole jellyfish, but while it is still focusing on one tentacle, it perceives/experiences only that tentacle. If it wants to perceive/experience another tentacle, it needs to stop focusing on that tentacle (=physical death for that human body) and start focusing on another.

Edited March 5, 2020 by GreenWoods

[crab12]

12 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

How does focusing on your toe happen? I would say it's a result of a feeling, emotion, thought or sensation.

If I hit my toe on the table leg then my focus automatically jumps to it. But other times I can't pinpoint it to anything. It can be totally detached from the normal human experience. That's why I think there is free will.

12 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

The way I make sense of it is this:

Imagine a jellyfish. The jellyfish head is the Godhead and each tentacle is one indivdual self plus its peception bubble. The whole jellyfish is God. Whenever the jellyfish head (=Godhead) focuses on one tentacle (= being incarnated in a human body) it believes that it is that tentacle. When a tentacle 'awakens', the jellyfish head realizes that it is the whole jellyfish, but while it is still focusing on one tentacle, it perceives/experiences only that tentacle. If it wants to perceive/experience another tentacle, it needs to stop focusing on that tentacle (=physical death for that human body) and start focusing on another.

I like your explanation very much. Haven't thought about it like that, but it's super intuitive to think about it like this. If I am focusing on my book then at the same time I cannot perceive my phone, and vice versa. Same with the bubbles of perception. This means, at some point, "I" am going to experience the life of every being that has ever existed and ever will exist. Nice.

I kinda intuit that this is the truth, or closer to it than what I previously had. This truth would make me a lot more considering towards others. I can already feel it.

Edited March 5, 2020 by crab12

[WelcometoReality]

On 2020-02-26 at 6:54 PM, LfcCharlie4 said:

@VeganAwake I get you, but how would relatively speaking, anything ever progress with this mindset?

Everything is perfect, and nothing needs to be done, yes! 

But does that mean we should just let wars carry on, people starve and people live in poverty etc? 

Sorry, but I will never be on board with using The Absolute as a form of Spiritual Bypassing. 

From The Absolute perspective I 100% agree with you- Everything is perfect as it is! 

But, then let's say you're homeless, would you just never fix it? 

If you're overweight would you not go and lose weight? 

Things will happen anyway without the identification to a false self that believes it is the doer of actions. If there is hunger you eat and if tired you sleep.

 

[GreenWoods]

 

On 3/5/2020 at 11:27 PM, crab12 said:

If I hit my toe on the table leg then my focus automatically jumps to it. But other times I can't pinpoint it to anything. It can be totally detached from the normal human experience. That's why I think there is free will.

You mean "focusing on your toe" has no cause?

On 3/5/2020 at 11:27 PM, crab12 said:

. This means, at some point, "I" am going to experience the life of every being that has ever existed and ever will exist. Nice.

Actually, you are doing that right now. You are your friend talking to you. Your friend is not a part of you, your friend is you, so you are literally talking to yourself