What is the point of living if we are going to die?

[Ero]

@arlin This framing of the question shows that the psyche is oriented towards "going somewhere" or "achieving something" and as such the impermanence of life is seen as a threat. "Why live if I'll eventually die?". Questions that have a similar dynamic are :

Why create anything if it will eventually fade to dust? 

Why change or save the planet if it will eventually be burnt to crisp by the sun? 

This POV is useful, but when it becomes a living experience stronger than simple "being" (aka to not have to go "to somewhere") one tends to see everything through it and as such is not be able to experience simple presence. Go for a walk. Go for a hike through nature. Draw. Socialise. None of those activities needs to "get" somewhere to be enjoyed. Only when you are able to fundamentally enjoy simple activities, can you apply your mind on top for an even greater expression of your Will. Learning to appreciate and experience without all the extra abstraction is something you need to simply feel better as a human. It doesn't need to have correlation with spirituality per say. 

[Raw Nature]

@ajasatya

One more thing that you may find interesting to contemplate:

• None of us can contemplate or create so much as a thought without meaning, thus to say that life has no intrinsic meaning is an unsubstantiated contradiction
• Given the relationship between cognitive syntax and the syntax of reality, otherwise expressed as C->R, this also renders your statement as not only unsubstantiated but invalid. Ultimate meaning is the entire purpose of reality, without it, reality would have no purpose to exist. Existence requires purpose for purpose is the building blocks for reality, the organisational principle that allows information to establish logical coherence to the point it can talk with itself to build further purpose. Purpose is the precursor to all intrinsic meaning and all meaning predicates the purposes that will be derived from the perceptual syntax designed to infer it, i.e. us. where we're back to C -> R.
• C->R is the binding loop between realities simultaneous self representation and self configuration, this is also the dual framework for establishing the logical predicates necessary for free will both from the perspective of reality and the free will of a human. This loop in a nutshell, is sentience, an engine that allows for cognition to have selection boundaries serve self optimisation parameters, aka, from evolution to self actualisation.

Just some thoughts to consider. The logic is flawless but you can have a go at trying to crack it.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Raw Nature

[abrakamowse]

[Raw Nature]

@abrakamowse Great wisdom!

 

[arlin]

50 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

@arlin There is no intrinsic meaning to life. And even if there were one, you'd rebel against it.

You're completely free to build your own meaning. It's impossible to pick the wrong meaning. You just gotta be aware of the consequences of your choices.

I undertand. What about suffering then? Maybe you will answer that suffering is here to help you learn. But sometimes you know, when maybe you are in deep depression such that you see that that suffering is useless. But maybe this is another topic to discuss. 

 

@Raw Nature you speak in incredible complicate manner with tecnical terms. Although i am really interested in your point of view, i wonder if you will ever make it simpler for an idiot like me ahahahah

[arlin]

@abrakamowse that was it ahaha

 

@Ero Does this apply to when you are depressed and suicidal (i am not). You see, what you say might be valid. But i can appreciate being when i am out taking a walk, but what if i am in such a dark space in my life? Then just being looses its significance immediatly. You can't just be in that. I  completely agree with you that it does not have to be something spiritual, i understand. 

[Nahm]

@arlin What is your connotation of spirituality?

[Raw Nature]

You're not an idiot, your brain has enormous potential @arlin .

All it means is that - although you're free to disagree as you please:

• We are dual authors with reality of reality and as reality, thus intrinsic meaning and subsequent purpose is the real deal.
• Our ability to create meaning means that the universe has intrinsic meaning and purpose. You cannot have one without the other.

[abrakamowse]

@Raw Nature @arlin

[arlin]

@Nahm @abrakamowse

@Ero

 

Nahm i think of spirituality as an investigation of what reality is on an existencial level. But i am just a beginner in self actualization with just 9 months of exprience. I dont want to take it too far, to investigate what i am on an existencial level would only do harm believe me. I am more interested in genuine, very concrete and applicable answers and point kf view that i can use when i feel lost, powerless or depressed occasionally. Not that doing spirituality would not help, but at this stage of my life i just dont need it and it would be harmfull. 

For example, just for example, one answer might be: "when you are depressed and lost, remember who you are and what brought you here. Also, seek help from others and find friends who really support you". 

So here it is, the kind of level i am at. 

[arlin]

11 minutes ago, Raw Nature said:

You're not an idiot, your brain has enormous potential @arlin .

All it means is that - although you're free to disagree as you please:

• We are dual authors with reality of reality and as reality, thus intrinsic meaning and subsequent purpose is the real deal.
• Our ability to create meaning means that the universe has intrinsic meaning and purpose. You cannot have one without the other.

So when i feel like everything is momentary and useless, and it will fade, how would it serve me to remember those things? 

How can i apply your suggestion in an actionable, concrete manner? 

[Eph75]

25 minutes ago, arlin said:

What about suffering then? Maybe you will answer that suffering is here to help you learn. But sometimes you know, when maybe you are in deep depression such that you see that that suffering is useless. But maybe this is another topic to discuss. 

Suffering comes from desires, wants and needs, trying to be or get something that you currently don't already possess. Suffering can of course be seen as a calling for you to take action and change - i.e. reduce your desires, if you care to attach that meaning to it, which certainly is near at hand when you've gone through suffering to a point that you take charge and change how your relate to being. Desire is a vicious circle, there is never enough. Desire is addictive.

At the same time, suffering has no meaning, it is useless. It's more of a product. Some can't be avoided. A lot we create for ourselves, such as through desire. But with all suffering, we can change how we relate to it. "Just being" helps with this dynamic.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Eph75

[The Lucid Dreamer]

You say you are not interested in the true nature of reality, yet you want an answer to a question such as this?  You won’t find the answer to this question without a desire to understand the nature of reality.  

[Eph75]

13 minutes ago, The Lucid Dreamer said:

You say you are not interested in the true nature of reality, yet you want an answer to a question such as this?  You won’t find the answer to this question without a desire to understand the nature of reality.  

It's just a state, one of many; wanting to discuss on a down-to-earth way that help making sense of progressing congnative and developmental growth. Perhaps it's not so much the content of the answers provided as it is the format of the answers themselves. Both may tell the same story but the typical "spiritual answer" is oftentimes much to implicit to be helpful when just trying to find "a-or-any" way forward.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Eph75

[Raw Nature]

@arlin you have to train the prefrontal cortex, or rather more functionally, sentience.

Sentience can be trained in a number of ways, the best way to explore and realise sentience is through experiential training.

I make mention of a simple emotional shifting exercise at the bottom of this comment here that will give a real sense of sentience and subsequent personal empowerment which stands as your very real and tangible free will in this reality.

Someone said as a reply to my comment that I'm yet to get to "what is sentience?", as a reply here it simply means what we normally refer to as self awareness without that internal chatter, instead the awareness of that.

The next step would be training the frontoparietal network, or to simply say, the prefrontal cortex.

This involves simply doing things that get one to train their reasoning, for a male in general I'd recommend spatial reasoning. Say lots of chess and then learning to transpose those skills into ones everyday life, that way the training will translate in and outside of chess.

Chess can be very intimidating for people but if the end goal of improving sentience is kept in mind that can better enable sentience. Also the emotional shifting exercises themselves, if one wishes to practice, will make a considerable difference to someones ability in the realm of relieving oneself from depression. In fact I'd argue that if someone were to do 3 hours of training per day there's absolutely no doubt that they'd not only redeem any depressed condition they'd far exceed any ability they had here they previously thought possible.

I personally do not train on the exercises myself, however I do train my prefrontal cortex, spending at least 2-3 hours per day and I find that in itself helps in the alleviation of any potential symptoms of depression as well as capacities to self regulate.

The emotional exercises even if one doesn't want to consistently train there at a bare minimum allow someone to really experience what sentience is actually like, a feeling that I think many people have probably forgotten. And don't feel bad if you can't shift your state easily initially, I remember when I did properly train for about a week after the 4th day or so 1+ training I was amazed at how good I was getting.

[Nahm]

31 minutes ago, arlin said:

 

 

Nahm i think of spirituality as an investigation of what reality is on an existencial level. But i am just a beginner in self actualization with just 9 months of exprience. I dont want to take it too far, to investigate what i am on an existencial level would only do harm believe me.

I think of spirituality as looking at how I create my suffering, and thus liberating from it, aka love, joy, empowerment, creating the life I actually want, realizing success in life, ease, effortlessness, togetherness, fun, deep rich authentic relationships, happiness, truth. Why would anyone believe you when you say investigating yourself would do you harm? I don’t think that way about you at all. Imo, you’re amazing. The more of that you see, the better you feel. If I held beliefs about myself to the contrary, I’d avoid my own feelings - because they would always be telling me that the thoughts about myself which do not feel good, are not true. 

Quote

I am more interested in genuine, very concrete and applicable answers

But you made a post specifically ruling any true genuine answer out, imo. To me it reads, “join me in my delusion & suffering, or don’t join me at all”. That’s just an opinion though, I’m sharing it, not pushing it. I respect where you’re at, just a perspective here for you to consider or discard. No worries either way.  

Quote

 

and point kf view that i can use when i feel lost, powerless or depressed occasionally. Not that doing spirituality would not help, but at this stage of my life i just dont need it and it would be harmfull. 

You wouldn’t end up lost, powerless or depressed because you would understand how you do that to yourself to begin with, but again, I respect your perspective against investigating this, even knowing the avoidance of feeling is the suffering. 

Quote

For example, just for example, one answer might be: "when you are depressed and lost, remember who you are and what brought you here. Also, seek help from others and find friends who really support you". 

So here it is, the kind of level i am at. 

You don’t need to hear that though, as you already know it. Believing you need someone else to make you feel better, is the suffering, and perpetuates the suffering. Am I saying you shouldn’t ask for help, and allow help? Heck no. I’m pointing to your belief that you need it. That’s just a perspective I’m sharing though. Don’t give it any value so to speak. If it doesn’t resonate with you, it doesn’t. I wish you well in any case. 

[Eph75]

8 minutes ago, Raw Nature said:

Someone said as a reply to my comment that I'm yet to get to "what is sentience?", as a reply here it simply means what we normally refer to as self awareness without that internal chatter, instead the awareness of that.

Sentient being meaning "having an inherent ability to be self-aware and thinking" - i.e. all human beings - where does "without internal chatter" come from/fit into your picture?

 

18 minutes ago, Raw Nature said:

Also the emotional shifting exercises themselves, if one wishes to practice, will make a considerable difference to someones ability in the realm of relieving oneself from depression. In fact I'd argue that if someone were to do 3 hours of training per day there's absolutely no doubt that they'd not only redeem any depressed condition they'd far exceed any ability they had here they previously thought possible.

I'd just like to confirm this; we can easly create emotional states and control the shifting on and off of those. It is a  "fun" exercise that gives a somewhat terrefying insight when doing this in multiple sequences.

[Yog]

dae before you dae, so you may...liv

or...

dae, before you dae, so when you dae, you wont... dae

[Eph75]

24 minutes ago, Nahm said:

But you made a post specifically ruling any true genuine answer out, imo. To me it reads, “join me in my delusion & suffering, or don’t join me at all”. That’s just an opinion though, I’m sharing it, not pushing it. I respect where you’re at, just a perspective here for you to consider or discard. No worries either way.  

Spiral wizardry is called for - offer  information in a format and depth that is most helpful to the person that holds an inquiry  all in order to help that someone in their own path and growth from their perspective.

@Nahm I love your posts - ❤ - but they often require a certain level of understanding to be possible to be consumed. If you don't already have a that relative level of understanding, your wisdom would easily be misunderstood or not understood at all.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Eph75

[Pouya]

@arlin You said don't answer with spiritual/existential ideas. That's ok, but the answers you'll get this way will be limited by just human experience and human life. AND dude 20 years old is totally ok, you don't have to avoid these just because you're "too young". I got into actualized.org and serious enlightenment at the age of 16 and I don't even think that its too early! Didn't took me years and decades to get serious results, because I actually care and love to contemplate and get closer and closer to Absolute Truth.

So,
Why live if we are going to die? If there is nothing after death and you just stop existing as you, what to do?
Live your life to experience the most out of it. Go for the best quality life in terms of money, relationships, social relationships, jobs and get yourself to a point where you can actually travel and see things unimaginable and beautiful in this world. Check out the self-actualization section in the forum which has more practical and productive oriented stuff there which might be really useful for you. Spirituality is kinda extreme for some people so stay safe and good luck

check out POSITIVE NIHILISM specially on youtube.