Is Truth Absolutely Known or Absolutely Unknown?

[SOUL]

3 hours ago, Lento said:

The past has happened whether it's told or not.

That being said; what makes the present moment special?

The past and the future doesn't exist, there is only present...an unfolding, ever changing present we perceive as having 'time'.

Unfolding present creates experience that leaves impressions on our bodies and psyche which we call memories but those are experiences that are just in the imagination.

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ideas + ideas + idea + ideas = ideology. 

The context in which I'm using the term "ideology" is a related set of ideas. I would consider a set of ideas about "being present" to be an ideology. 

This does not suggest I disagree with the ideas. 

I think one question you allude to has insight value. That is "can there be attachment even if there is no identification?". I would say yes. Attachment can be very subtle. In it's most subtle form, any word, thought, image or perception is a subtle attachment. 

You are trying to make a subtle slight of hand, the questions I ask are not ideas to believe in....being just is. Although for me to communicate it to another I conceptualize it so yes have ideas but the ideas don't contribute to being present.

These aren't a system of ideas that are believed to be.......it's just being. Don't even have to say present because there isn't any other way to be other than present. The more clear description of it is 'being presence'.

There's no thinking about the 'present', no attention to focus on it, no beliefs about it. It's just presence of being which one can experience. Any ideas I share about it are in hopes for someone to let go of the ideas about it and just be.... presence.

Edited February 14, 2020 by SOUL

[Danioover9000]

17 minutes ago, SOUL said:

You are trying to make a subtle slight if hand, the questions I ask are not ideas that bring about being....being just is. Although for me to communicate it to another I conceptualize it so yes have ideas but the ideas don't contribute to being present.

These aren't a system of ideas that are believed to be.......it's just being. Don't even have to say present because there isn't any other way to be other than present. The more clear description of it is 'being presence'.

There's no thinking about the 'present', no attention to focus on it, no beliefs about it. It's just presence of being which one can experience. Any ideas I share about it are in hopes for someone to let go of the ideas about it and just be.... presence.

   Really? No focus needed for present moment?

[Forestluv]

@SOUL That sounds great. ??

I was trying to get to something else, yet we don’t seem to be on the same frequency. 

[cetus]

@Serotoninluv Ever wonder why I sit in the wings and just observe?

[SOUL]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Really? No focus needed for present moment?

Nope.. it's just another thing the ego wants us to 'do' to accomplish it. Then ironically it creates a distraction from the focused attention which in turn it uses to task us to get back and 'do' the focusing again.

 

[Danioover9000]

14 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Nope.. it's just another thing the ego wants us to 'do' to accomplish it. Then ironically it creates a distraction from the focused attention which in turn it uses to task us to get back and 'do' the focusing again.

 

   So, I can be enlightened by just being?

[Tanz]

known is implying intellect so no you can not know truth from the intellect

however you can experience the truth and absolute unknown by dissolving everything you think you are and become everything you think you are not and are all at once.  

[cetus]

21 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   So, I can be enlightened by just being?

@Danioover9000 When there is only being there is no "enlightenment". There is only being.

[SOUL]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   So, I can be enlightened by just being?

I prefer to not use that term very often because it can be interpreted in many ways but legend has it Buddha said 'all beings are enlightened'.

[Lento]

9 hours ago, SOUL said:

The past and the future doesn't exist, there is only present...an unfolding, ever changing present we perceive as having 'time'.

Unfolding present creates experience that leaves impressions on our bodies and psyche which we call memories but those are experiences that are just in the imagination.

Yet, another story...

This view can be helpful in certain occasions, like for silencing the mind, but the attachment to it can be very limiting, and it may also lead to nihilism and many other traps. And I'm not speculating here. I'm speaking from experience.

Notice the clear distinctions you're making between the present moment, the past, and the future. These distinctions are imaginary. They're stories you're creating, and yet, keep denying. The truth is that the past and the future are the present moment. They're all one thing. This is simply a recontextualisation of what you said, a different approach, or a different angle if you will, but the mind would likely disagree because the recontextualised story doesn't go well with the stories it already has.

I'm not saying you're wrong. You're absolutely right. Yet, there's a meta view that you seem to be missing; A view that isn't attached to a specific story.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Lento

[Lento]

8 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   It's kinda like taking two balls on each hand, and squeezing them together. One is called 'past' the other is called 'future', and the tension between them and on the boundary is called 'present'. The past feels very real while the possibilities of the future, will it's not factual, is still very real. Even if you let go of the balls, the force you've generated at them was so great that that part of the balls fuesed together, and now past and future are tied together at the present moment, containing all parts of time.

   Like if you imagined going for a walk, then you are walking, and before bed you reflect on your outdoor walk in the park, despite millions of moments have passed, those moments where you're imagining the walk while walking, and reflecting on a prior walk while walking, where past/present and future/present interact, that all can be illusory, yet is very real and beneficial. Without the present moment between the past/future, it's very easy to get lost.

Exactly! I like this ??

Metaphors are great for a reason; They are simple and easy to understand, and yet, difficult to cling to!

[Nahm]

@Lento ? ? 

[SOUL]

5 hours ago, Lento said:

Yet, another story...

This view can be helpful in certain occasions, like for silencing the mind, but the attachment to it can be very limiting, and it may also lead to nihilism and many other traps. And I'm not speculating here. I'm speaking from experience.

Notice the clear distinctions you're making between the present moment, the past, and the future. These distinctions are imaginary. They're stories you're creating, and yet, keep denying. The truth is that the past and the future are the present moment. They're all one thing. This is simply a recontextualisation of what you said, a different approach, or a different angle if you will, but the mind would likely disagree because the recontextualised story doesn't go well with the stories it already has.

I'm not saying you're wrong. You're absolutely right. Yet, there's a meta view that you seem to be missing; A view that isn't attached to a specific story.

You keep calling it a story... what do you expect? That's what we are doing... descriptions are a story... but you fail to recognize your own story telling.

All this you said to me is just a story, it's imaginary and this 'recontexualization' concept is a story you tell yourself which you call truth to satisfy the ego that it 'knows' it. The story that you have a 'meta' view which others are missing is imaginary.

The difference is my story exists even if it isn't told, the present exists, the past and future don't even though they are all one thing it presents itself as...the present. Manifest existence is in the present moment, the past and future are imaginary.

Yes, they are all one thing as the manifest existence but to experience the past or future we do it in our imagination, the present can punch you in the face...without the imagination. Reality doesn't require your belief, it just is.

If you are going to tell me this is a story just punch yourself in the face already. Of course we are telling stories to each other, that's what discussion is, story telling....but you believe yours are the 'truth' which you 'know' and others 'missing'.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by SOUL

[Lento]

4 minutes ago, SOUL said:

You keep calling it a story... what do you expect? That's what we are doing... descriptions are a story... but you fail to recognize your own story telling.

All this you said to me is just a story, it's imaginary and this 'recontexualization' concept is a story you tell yourself which you call truth to satisfy the ego that it 'knows' it. The story that you have a 'meta' view which others are missing is imaginary.

The difference is my story exists even if it isn't told, the present exists, the past and future don't even though they are all one thing it presents itself as...the present. Manifest existence is in the present moment, the past and future are imaginary.

Yes, they are all one thing as the manifest existence but to experience the past or future we do it in our imagination, the present can punch you in the face...without the imagination. Reality doesn't require your belief, it just is.

If you are going to tell me this is a story just punch yourself in the face already. Of course we are telling stories to each other, that's what discussion is, story telling....but you believe yours are the 'truth' which you 'know' and others 'missing'.

It's really difficult to communicate with someone who thinks they've got it all figured out.

I'm ready to discuss more when you'll be more open.

[SOUL]

Just now, Lento said:

It's really difficult to communicate with someone who thinks they've got it all figured out.

I'm ready to discuss more when you'll be more open.

Oh that's just a story.... one where you tell others they are missing it but you know the truth then tell them it's really difficult to communicate with someone who thinks they have it all figured out and they aren't open to your stories....you have quite the imagination.

[Lento]

@SOUL Classic! ???

[Inliytened1]

20 hours ago, SOUL said:

I prefer to not use that term very often because it can be interpreted in many ways but legend has it Buddha said 'all beings are enlightened'.

I concur with all that you have said.  I would just add that all beings are God (enlightened) but not all beings are conscious that they are God.  God is indeed pure Being.   Becoming conscious that they are God is when consciousness becomes conscious that it is consciousness and a mystical oneness occurs.    Thus being and knowing are paradoxically entangled due to oneness.   It cannot escape its own Infinity.

 

[Nahm]

@Anton Rogachevski Paradoxically, by studying & understanding zen, as it dissolves itself, you see the write off of ‘zen games’, and then begin what is desiring to be ‘doing’ / it becomes the experience so to speak, and could be no other way. 

[pluto]

Truth is beyond known and unknown