Feminism's mission

[crab12]

I am reading Teal Swan's Anatomy of Loneliness and came upon this quote.

Quote

I was raised by a mother who was a bra-burner in the 1960s with women's rights movement. Having watched the continual objectification of women in her childhood, she dramatically rebelled against the sexualisation of women. When I began to come into my own sexuality and wanted to wear make-up, high heels, dress sexy and flirt with boys, my mother had a visceral negative reaction to it. She looked at me with disgust, made derogatory remarks and told me that I was destroying everything she and the women of her time worked so hard for.

I can understand why young woman do these things, there's no political agenda behind it, just a natural thing to do. What I don't understand is the perspective of the mother. Why did she have a visceral negative reaction to her daughter? Obviously the same dynamic is present in today's feminism - they purposefully present themselves in a way that is less sexually attractive to men. But why? There are feminist messages everywhere in my society, yet I still don't understand the actual intent or perspective or the unfulfilled needs behind it.

Btw Anatomy of Loneliness is not a book about feminism, it was just an illustrative example about shame.

[tsuki]

Definitely not an expert on feminism, but the mother's behavior does not surprise me.
She was probably letting her husband exploit her sexually, without having the freedom to express her preferences. Not saying that it's her fault, this pattern goes thousands of years into the past and each generation was re-creating the conditions to repeat it. She woke up to that.

When I wake up from unconscious behavior and see the harm it created, it's difficult to not try to go to the other end of the spectrum.

When we repress a part of ourselves, we become an expert at recognizing and judging it.
Doing that outwardly, towards other people, is a natural consequence.

Edited February 11, 2020 by tsuki

[Elisabeth]

@crab12 Notice the following: In internet discussions of female politicians or scientists, someone will always mention their looks. Disagree with a female? Nothing easier then call her ugly. Like a female figure? Don't forget to mention she's gorgeous, too. And this is 2020. 

The mother likely fought for women to be noticed for their personality and skills primarily, not their sex-appeal. Accentuating beauty to get attention somehow goes against this idea.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, crab12 said:

Obviously the same dynamic is present in today's feminism - they purposefully present themselves in a way that is less sexually attractive to men.

Is a role for women to make themselves more sexually appealing to men? Should we expect women to be sexual eye candy for men? . . . From the perspective of many men. . yes!!! Women should present themselves in a way that I, as a male, find sexually appealing to satisfy imagination.

Imagine living a life in which every morning you have to go to a studio for an hour to put on lots of makeup. You have to wear shoes that are very uncomfortable - these shoes even cause damage to your feet, calves and knees. And then one day you realize you've been doing all this because the chipmunks in town like it. . . Wouldn't you pause and think "Wait a minute. . . why am I spending all this time, effort and money on this? Why am I damaging my body to do this? To give chipmunks I don't even care about a quick pulse of feeling good?". I think it would be reasonable to say "Screw this. I'm not going to spend all this time, effort, money and stress to my body to please chipmunks I don't care about. They can look at some chipmunk porn to get their jollies".

Now imagine years later, your son starts going to the makeup studio everyday. He starts wearing uncomfortable shoes that are damaging his body. He is trying to please the chipmunks in town like a good boy should. To me, it seems reasonable to tell him "You don't need to do this". You don't need to spend all this time, effort, money and stress your body to please the chipmunks. 

Yet a chipmunk-centric view would be very different. . . . 

[Yog]

My understanding of feminism might be quite limited. But here it is.

The way I see it, if it does not empower women to be what they want to be and allow them to be free to chose, regardless of what that may be, its no feminism to me.

On the other hand the styles that tell women what to do, or even worse teach them victim-hood, those I find quite damaging. Sadly that is 90% of what I've seen around. At least in the west.
 

[Harikrishnan]

@Serotoninluv what are your thoughts on Miss world earth universe like things happening every year. 

And why does women/men wear make up and all. I dont know if its my  laziness  i comb my hair with my hand in front of mirror quickly shower quickly doesent use any creams or anything on face. But i consider myself beautiful and on some days thinking about there will be women where i go i kind of do a little bit of grooming. Like i want to be more presentable in there eyes. Is this 'presentable in there eyes' a narrative of society that both men and women have. 

 

[mandyjw]

In the 50's and 60's there were really strong standards about how women should look and act, and there was a big reaction against it. If we would stop imposing standards on our children, anyone else, and including our own selves, there wouldn't be a problem. Standards aid us in judging others so we can feel like there are some external guidelines behind our own judgement, as if there's something to back it up. We forget that it's not about the standards themselves which are relative and arbitrary, but about the habit of judgement behind them. 

 

[Forestluv]

45 minutes ago, Harikrishnan said:

@Serotoninluv what are your thoughts on Miss world earth universe like things happening every year. 

And why does women/men wear make up and all. I dont know if its my  laziness  i comb my hair with my hand in front of mirror quickly shower quickly doesent use any creams or anything on face. But i consider myself beautiful and on some days thinking about there will be women where i go i kind of do a little bit of grooming. Like i want to be more presentable in there eyes. Is this 'presentable in there eyes' a narrative of society that both men and women have. 

This is just my view, which of course is biased and shaped by cultural influences.

I would make a distinction between "being presentable" for a particular environment and being pressured to appear a particular way for the pleasure of another. Of course there are many nuances and degrees along a spectrum.

A benign example would be dressing up a bit for a fancy event - like a symphony. On the other extreme would be the practice of subjecting young girls to foot binding. 

I would put pressures/expectations for women to present themselves a certain way that is sexually pleasing to men, somewhere between these two extremes. . . . In some environments, there is a dress-code. At my work, we aren't allowed to come work dressed in our underwear or a bathing suit. As well, there are certain "norms". It would be "abnormal" for a man to wear a dress or a woman to wear a suit and tie where I work. To me, that's not a big deal. My threshold is when one person/group puts pressure on another person/group (against their will) to present in a way that is sexually appealing to them. For example, if a male boss told a subordinate female to wear low-cut blouses and show off her cleavage (for his own enjoyment). T

I would agree with you that their are societal pressures to present well for both men and women. Yet there is also another variable - men have more power, leverage and influence. This is not to say that women don't have any power or influence. If women became attracted to men in tight-fitting shirts, men would likely feel pressure to wear tight-fitting shirts so they are attractive to what women want. Yet there is also patriarchal powers. For example, over history it's been common to have male management pressure female workers to present a way that is appealing to men. For example, showing cleavage. If a woman's breasts weren't large enough, she might be pressured to wear a padded bra. Yet this reciprocal dynamic doesn't really exist. It would be very rare to have a woman-dominated management that forces the male workers to wear tight-fitting pants to show off their bulge at the sexual pleasure of the women. And if their bulge isn't large enough, they have to pad their crotch with a sock. 

To me, voluntarily presenting well because the person wants to present well is different than being pressured to present a certain way. If women at my work forced the men to unzip their pant zippers and pull out their underwear/penis at the behest of female viewing pleasure - it would be over the line, imo and I would take action against it - just as I would take action against men going over the line in pressuring women to present according to their sexual viewing pleasure. 

[crab12]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Is a role for women to make themselves more sexually appealing to men? Should we expect women to be sexual eye candy for men? . . . From the perspective of many men. . yes!!! Women should present themselves in a way that I, as a male, find sexually appealing to satisfy imagination.

I see. Women felt they were pandering to the men by being eye candy for them, and they got sick of this, and rebelled against this. So in the mother daughter example, the mother felt that her daughter was pandering to the men by wearing make-up, sexy clothes etc.

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

"Wait a minute. . . why am I spending all this time, effort and money on this? Why am I damaging my body to do this? To give chipmunks I don't even care about a quick pulse of feeling good?". I think it would be reasonable to say "Screw this. I'm not going to spend all this time, effort, money and stress to my body to please chipmunks I don't care about. They can look at some chipmunk porn to get their jollies"

Very interesting. This is the mirror opposite how MGTOW feels towards women.

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Imagine living a life in which every morning you have to go to a studio for an hour to put on lots of makeup. You have to wear shoes that are very uncomfortable - these shoes even cause damage to your feet, calves and knees. And then one day you realize you've been doing all this because the chipmunks in town like it. . .

So the dynamic used to be that women were pressured into doing this. I always thought that women were doing this voluntarily in order to gain power over men, at least I feel this is the dynamic presently. When my mother was teenager, she told me how it was forbidden for girls to wear make up to school, have long open hair, wear a revealing cleavage, high heels, etc. And some girls would rebelliously wear open hair to school and would get punished over it. It has been my understanding that society used to shun this kind of sexual display. Then again, I don't live in U.S, so maybe it used to be different there.

[Leo Gura]

@crab12 How would you feel if you entire value as a living being was boiled down to being a hole that others could ejaculate into?

[crab12]

@Leo Gura Terribly. Okay I'm starting to understand the perspective and feelings behind feminism.

edit:

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@crab12 How would you feel if you entire value as a living being was boiled down to being a hole that others could ejaculate into?

I don't think reality is this extreme, that women are viewed as literal prostitutes by men. But from women's perspective, they actually feel like this? If this is really true, wow, I had no idea.

Edited February 11, 2020 by crab12

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, crab12 said:

Very interesting. This is the mirror opposite how MGTOW feels towards women.

Exactly. A MGTOW male-centric perspective will be very different than a common female-centric perspective. Each is relative to that who holds the perspective. It would be very difficult to for a MGTOW-centric male to totally let go of his perspective and fully open himself up to a common female perspective and to understand it so deeply it's almost as if he is that female. . . Similarly, there are some women that demonize men and it would be very difficult for her to totally let go of her perspective and fully open herself to understanding a MGTOW perspective. . . It is super hard to do for most minds. . . I would say this is one of the most powerful features of psychedelics. It can allow a mind to enter this space. 

1 hour ago, crab12 said:

So the dynamic used to be that women were pressured into doing this. I always thought that women were doing this voluntarily in order to gain power over men, at least I feel this is the dynamic presently. When my mother was teenager, she told me how it was forbidden for girls to wear make up to school, have long open hair, wear a revealing cleavage, high heels, etc. And some girls would rebelliously wear open hair to school and would get punished over it. It has been my understanding that society used to shun this kind of sexual display. Then again, I don't live in U.S, so maybe it used to be different there.

Of course. It goes both ways. There are some cultures in which most men want women to dress provacatively, such as showing a lot of cleavage. This would be considered an Orange level. . ,. A religious blue culture would be much more conservative. Here, women may be expected to be fully clothed and show no skin - such that men are not tempted to be lustful - which would be a sin in this context.

I would also draw a distinction between girls and women. These are different dynamics. A man could want his daughter and other girls in the middle school to present themselves without any sexual connotations. Yet the same man may want his secretary to wear low cut blouses without a bra, so he can oogle her breasts and fantasize about having sex with her in his office. 

 

[Elisabeth]

Quote

I don't think reality is this extreme, that women are viewed as literal prostitutes by men. But from women's perspective, they actually feel like this? If this is really true, wow, I had no idea.

It's not like women today have to feel misused all their waking time - but if you look at Brené Brown's research, she writes that physical appearance is still a shame trigger for virtually every woman she has interviewed. The amount of expectations and judgement put on women regarding their looks is still insane. The amount of misusing women's sex-appeal in advertisement etc. is even worse. 

 

[crab12]

3 hours ago, mandyjw said:

In the 50's and 60's there were really strong standards about how women should look and act, and there was a big reaction against it. If we would stop imposing standards on our children, anyone else, and including our own selves, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

48 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Of course. It goes both ways. There are some cultures in which most men want women to dress provacatively, such as showing a lot of cleavage. This would be considered an Orange level. . ,. A religious blue culture would be much more conservative. Here, women may be expected to be fully clothed and show no skin - such that men are not tempted to be lustful - which would be a sin in this context.

I see. The issue is not whichever way the standard is, but that it is externally forced upon, and it doesn't let women be authentic.

@Serotoninluv (or anyone else who knows) Do you know why feminists are not vocal about how women are expected to dress in islamic societies?

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, crab12 said:

 

@Serotoninluv (or anyone else who knows) Do you know why feminists are not vocal about how women are expected to dress in islamic societies?

I'm curious about that as well. From what I've seen, "green level" feminists don't come out strongly against female dress in Islamic societies. If I had to guess, I would say there is another force at play - perhaps there is pressure in U.S. liberalism not to criticize middle-eastern cultures and Muslims. In the US, there is so much Trump fueled vitriol against middle-eastern people and Muslims that liberals and progressives are generally oriented to defend them and don't want to be perceived as being anti-Muslim

[Thewritersunion]

@crab12 be Holy not “holey” 

[Leo Gura]

@crab12 For a long time women were considered the property of men.

In some parts of the world this is still the case.

This happens at a cultural level not only in gross ways but in many subtle ways. So even if in many cultures today women are allowed to have some independence, they are still often treated by men in power as pawns for their own gratification.

There is nothing new or surprising about this. A low consciousness ego will use everything around it as a pawn to further its survival regardless of the suffering inflicted on the pawn.

[Preety_India]

Forcing a woman to conform to an identity is nothing but slavery. She can be who she wants to be because she is free. That's feminism. There is no other mission other than total liberation. 

 

 

[K VIL]

@Leo Gura you always put things into such great perspective Leo. thanks for existing or not existing lol.

You are the embodiment of a psychedelic (though i never tried it)

[RareGodzilla]

Feminists do have a valid point with objectification. But it goes much further than objectification on the sexual market. In the capitalist society we are all mere objects. Our value as human beings is completely determined by how much value we can produce and then negotiate it on the market.

Look at some business terminology 

• HR (human resources) - the term straight out designates humans as mere commodity. 
• RIF (reduction in force) - here humans are mere "force" , a nice way to say that people will not be able to feed their children. 
• Right-size - this one is again about firing people 

And to be honest. Probably all of us here judge other people by how much we can get out of them. We are all selfish to some degree, a big picture perspective reveals how this selfishness causes us to hurt each other.