Coding Bootcamp VS. College

[Chumbimba]

Which is a better option to practically learn code and get a job. I know I can be self taught, but I would rather learn from someone who has experience.

[electroBeam]

For getting a job, college is better. For become a world class software engineer, coding bootcamp + self study, self run projects, reaching out and coding with admirable mentors, presenting at meetup and conferences, online courses (where you do it for learning, not for marks) etc is a better option.

[Raphael]

I mostly learned by using free online tutorials, it's maybe 70% - 80% of my education.

When I was in college, most of the time the teacher would tell us to turn on our computer, go to a specific page and do the exercises. He would eventually help us when we had some questions, in some other classes he would direct us by showing how to do the work.

Overall, I think working with other competent people on real scale projects help to learn faster. Online courses on Udemy or other similar platforms can also be great because they are very structured, but I only took one of these courses so far.

Stay open when learning, have a stage yellow approach, analyze the most possibilities that you can. There are many different ways of doing the same stuff in programming, yet some of them are more effective.

 

[Meetjoeblack]

On 2020-02-08 at 10:11 PM, Chumbimba said:

Which is a better option to practically learn code and get a job. I know I can be self taught, but I would rather learn from someone who has experience.

how old are you?

if early or mid twenties, I will do college but community college. Be warned, you can't declare bankruptcy on student loans.

if older, say in a career already, I'd do a coding boot camp.

for now, play with apps and self learn to code to make sure

1. you can code

2. it's not a dread

I took coding in hs. it is a pain.hence why it pays.

[Chumbimba]

@Meetjoeblack im 22. I am going to the community college and learn 

[outlandish]

A bootcamp could be good for getting your feet wet, getting a taste, or for learning a specific skill. College will teach you the deep aspects of coding and computing that will never change, that will be good for life.

If you're determined in this field already, yeah definitely go to college, it's going to go into way more depth and teach you the fundamentals in a way you'll never grasp from bootcamps. If you're dabbling, maybe a bootcamp is good for you.

[OmniYoga]

@outlandish

what you can learn in college ? that it's not already available online ???
sounds like dogma

in today's widely spread knowledge world.
it's a more a matter of self-motivation and persistence

the only added value can be 1on1 coaching - becasue you get feedback that is outside of you, but that rather requried a lot of financail resources 

[outlandish]

36 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

@outlandish

what you can learn in college ? that it's not already available online ???
sounds like dogma

in today's widely spread knowledge world.
it's a more a matter of self-motivation and persistence

the only added value can be 1on1 coaching - becasue you get feedback that is outside of you, but that rather requried a lot of financail resources 

Sure, you can learn it all online if you are determined and are clever enough to weed out the good from the bad, and identify what are these fundamentals that are truly important. And then have the self-discipline to do it all on your own and stay focused. There are no secrets bestowed upon you in college.

College is a curated experience of this. Wise people have figured out a programme that will take you step by step to a high level, and teach you the important bits in the correct order so that it all makes sense. It's also a commitment to a work-plan, which most people lack the self-motivation to do without that external motivation. 

100% though - if you're very determined, savvy, and self-disciplined you can do it without college. Even if you do go to college you'll still need to be disciplined and curious enough to continue learning after you graduate.

College isn't cheap either, so it could be worth evaluating if you have what it takes to be self-taught. Worth remembering also the societal prestige that comes with the piece of paper that says you have the degree. For better or worse, it's for real.

[supremeyingyang]

@Chumbimba

Oh come on, we'd discussed that topic. You've no guarantee to win no matter what you choose. I don't know Bootcamp, but it is known that this thing CAN be a trap. Tricksters exploid that scheme...

I would suggest you go to community college and you try to hustle on the side. For example :

• Make a website for little $ for a shop owner with Wordpress
• teach wealthy seniors how to get to their emails (like a tutor),
• repair a computer
• program something little on the side for $

Apply for jobs, if you are clever & lucky you find someone who will train you for $. Generally real life Experience > College. I went to college but we in Germany have no student debt - our taxes pay for it. If you have to pay like 50.000$ for a Bachelors i would think reeeally good about it

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[OmniYoga]

4 hours ago, outlandish said:

College isn't cheap either, so it could be worth evaluating if you have what it takes to be self-taught. Worth remembering also the societal prestige that comes with the piece of paper that says you have the degree. For better or worse, it's for real.

it might be important for HR lady or some institutution, but for business owners and self - made entreprenuers it mean nothing
cuz it is actually nothing,  just a piece of paper, doesn't say anything about you for real

[outlandish]

18 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

it might be important for HR lady or some institutution, but for business owners and self - made entreprenuers it mean nothing
cuz it is actually nothing,  just a piece of paper, doesn't say anything about you for real

No, it says that the holder of said degree was able jump through all the hoops erected for that degree. Doesn't mean anything fundamentally about you personally, and I hope no one here would judge someone on the basis of what degree they hold, but don't underestimate the value society places on credentials.

[electroBeam]

1 hour ago, outlandish said:

No, it says that the holder of said degree was able jump through all the hoops erected for that degree. Doesn't mean anything fundamentally about you personally, and I hope no one here would judge someone on the basis of what degree they hold, but don't underestimate the value society places on credentials.

The point he was making was that degrees do nothing for your learning or development, the only thing they do is give a boss a reason to hire you, and cover their ass if something goes wrong. You don't have a boss being an entrepreneur, so you don't need one. And in silicon valley, people who don't have degrees are respected more than people who do. We are seen as they awesome rebel geniuses that was too cool for school. 

6 hours ago, outlandish said:

College is a curated experience of this. Wise people have figured out a programme that will take you step by step to a high level, and teach you the important bits in the correct order so that it all makes sense. It's also a commitment to a work-plan, which most people lack the self-motivation to do without that external motivation. 

Firstly, the people who have figured out the programme are not wise, they are people who are really good at office politics, skewing research data to suit their self biased agenda, making up thesis projects that having nothing to do with helping humanity, but instead reaffirming their supervisor or school's ego, covering up mistakes they made in their analysis or experiments and people who are very good at following rules, but not going outside of those rules. 

Secondly, "teach you the important bits in the correct order" is personal for everyone. Some people are highly visual, and would suit core units in geometry first, then complex and imaginary numbers. Others are abstractly inclined, and so would suit complex numbers first then geometry. 

Some people need to be taught more visually, while others need to be taught more audibly. 

People learn best with different personality types. Some people like extroversion, while others like introversion.

Everyone has different passions, and so learning particular units based on specific passions (web design vs AI) would improve learning. 

Universities teach with poor learning techniques: They use lectures rather than interactive sessions. Instead of project based learning (studies show it to be far more effective) they use exercise based learning. Appreticiships are far more effective than the current system for programming, yet why are they still teaching with these stupid tests and exercises? Real life doesn't have tests and exercises, and the fact that industry types don't trust people straight out of college is a sign of that. 

Everyone requires a different learning style, yet because university is interested in money - and not education - they standardise all of this into 1 set of core courses, making lots of people feel isolated. If you study yourself, you have the power to control all of these aspects, and learn 1000x more effectively.   

But worst part about the university system, is it doesn't take into consideration your life purpose. It trains you to be a cookie cutter: follow the rules, keep within your field of expertise, and maximise the amount of value you can give to some ruthless boss some day. What if you're a light worker? What if you're a reiki healer? Good luck getting a degree to help you here. What if your life purpose is to build code that helps tarot healer do their work? Hahahaha Uni got no chance with that. 

If you follow uni's advice, both in and out of college, you're destined to be a wage slave helping some dude rip people off to get himself rich. 

 

University only has a few real unique value propositions: access to expensive lab equipment (if you need it), credentials (so that when you construct a bridge and it topples over, your boss can cover his ass and say "oh but he had a degree! How was I suppose to know!") and access to relationships if your uni provides that. And of course some degrees need credentials (like being a doctor). No ways about that.

The actual learning is best done by yourself. But if you really care about your career (and you don't have a profession that requires expensive lab equipment, or is very strict on credentials), doing self study, finding powerful mentors, going to conferences, doing a startup, for 4 years! Is going to grow you 100x as much as someone who goes to uni. But do you have the balls to not rely on credentials to get jobs and be successful? Going into an interview for a high end job without a degree requires the same level of EQ as cold approach does - harder but grows you more, and you save more time. 

 

[outlandish]

Yes you don't have to go to college, lots of people make it work. You can learn the specific skills and craft of programming on your own outside of college relatively quickly. I'm all for people doing it on their own, especially with tuition fees really high in a lot of areas. It's criminal how the university system leaves students so deeply in debt. An undergrad in compsci at a decent school will give you a much deeper and broader education beyond the surface level skills, but the price can be high.

If it's boot camp vs undergrad like @Chumbimba asked, I'd go for the undergrad every time. Bootcamps appeal to the quick-fix appetite and tend to smell scammy. I doubt that HR in any company would care if you completed a boot camp, but they might be helpful for getting you off the ground and giving you a taste, perhaps giving you that initial push you need to become self-taught.

I think @electroBeam is suggesting skipping both and just learn on your own. If you have the discipline for it, it's a great path because you can curate your own education, and come out of it debt-free.

[Chumbimba]

I work for an online college and get a 75% discount. I am just going to do the computer science degree through them.

https://www.wgu.edu/

Edited February 11, 2020 by Chumbimba

[John Doe]

Hey! I'm CS grad student here, so my opinion might be biased, but I would recommend college for getting jobs. It's unfortunate, but most entry-level CS job listings nowadays seem to require at-least a bachelor's degree. I say "unfortunate" because I feel most of my undergrad knowledge could have been gained simply from free online courses. I learned most of my Java, not from a university professor, but from a guy on YouTube called 'Derek Banas' lol. But that's not to say universities are useless, they open up other doorways - growing your network (professors, students), access to university career fairs and getting to work on interesting projects. 

Having said that, it's not entirely impossible to get a job without a degree. This situation is primarily due to lazy HRs who don't want to take risk, and 'meritocratic' bias. A lot of my colleagues are air-heads who get through school mainly because they're good at rote memory, that's it. True hackers are not produced in academia. All you need is a basement, headphones, a laptop with good internet connection and roaring passion.

Good luck.

[supremeyingyang]

@Chumbimba @John Doe

John Doe said it. Would go further. You have get without HR into the job. That is how I got all of my jobs. Like a lot of business related jobs is HR great for administration, but not for innovation. To be blunt they can't know if you know shit about that particular domain you'll apply for. So they minimize their risk and take people with degrees. This a double win, because these have debt and will tend to work harder as these without. Game Theory. You have to get contact with a tech guy and convince him to take you for the job and boom... But that a risk and a little bit stressful
 

@Chumbimba
You gotta have to start somewhere. If I understand you want to work on the side to get out free of debt, right? That's bold and I think you can do it. A bachelors degree can get you in the door. The main work is yours, however.

 

[kireet]

@Chumbimba you can get a decent job by going to college ...

but they dont teach well enough . you can do self study+bootcamps + GSOC + hackathons if you want to achieve mastery

[Javfly33]

Go to college for the degree but try to do as much as you can on your own. Try to waste the minimum time on exercises and theories and work on your own projects

[hamedsf]

 

[Onemanwolfpac]

On 25/06/2020 at 7:15 AM, comebacktoyou said:

Bootcamp probably.

Given the time line and how quickly you can get it done, boot camp but given the garbage economy and unemployment rate, its likely not. Probably community college. You can learn solo through code academy and lighthouse i hear good stories about. There's no quick route. I am skeptical on hiring rate. 

@Chumbimba did you decide? The annoying thing is that, community college is full of nonsense courses and very over priced. Coding boot camp is really expensive but little to no guarantee of legitimate use. Check reddit subs.