nudity, porn & masturbation, why are they still considered bad behavior?

[Rebecca Kalamata]

5 minutes ago, Shin said:

If you ejaculate during sex, yes.

Hugh?

[Lento]

28 minutes ago, Shin said:

If you ejaculate during sex, yes.

Then how are sex and masturbation different? And why did you leave out mentioning sex at first? It's common sense that the majority of people ejaculate during sex!

Edited February 8, 2020 by Lento
(I mean many women would love to ?)

[Danioover9000]

@Rebecca Kalamata @Lento @Shin  Again, nudity, porn, and masturbation is relative to where you're viewing these on the spiral. If you were raised in a stage blue society ( religious, traditional culture, conservative, national...) You would have different views on these things compared to a stage Orange rational scientist or business owner, realist or pragmatist, compared to a humanist, hippy, millenials, SJWs, feminists on stage green, compared to visionaries, Revolutionary thinkers on stage yellow, compared to zen masters, taoists, and yogis on stage turquoise, compared to stage red gangsters, rapists, con artists, psychopaths, sociopaths, compared to tribes in Indonesia, Africa, on stage purple, compared to other creatures on stage baige.

   Of course, there's plenty of psychological needs and baggage around nudity, porn, masturbation, mostly unconscious. While shadow work lacks the complexity of spiral dynamics, it makes it up with detph and intensity, especially around traumas. As I'm working on myself, I'm beginning to appreciate how tricky it is to do deep work on myself.

   I'll leave you with two cases that happened in Africa, you can verify for yourselves if you want. These are just food for thought, take it or leave it.

   The first is a case about a woman. She ended up getting raped, and the rapist was shot dead by the armed police. The rapist here is unique, because he's not the same age, the same race or even the same species. It turns out the attacker is a gorilla. Yes, a gorilla was forcing itself onto the woman.

   The next case involved multiple deaths among African tribes men, and a pair of British hunters were hired to hunt down two killers. Turns out, the two killers were young male lions, that developed a taste for human flesh, and together they stalk and hunt down tribes men, like a sport.

   So, it appears that humans are not the only evil perverts on the planet. If this is possible, what else is?

[Lento]

@Danioover9000 

I'm at stage Orange. How should I view (each of) these things? I'm a pragmatist and I want success.

[Danioover9000]

6 minutes ago, Lento said:

@Danioover9000 

I'm at stage Orange. How should I view (each of) these things? I'm a pragmatist and I want success.

  Well, not only does it depend on the stage, but also the moral development, cognitive development and lines of development that you're at. Keep in mind that to transition from a stage to a stage, you'd experience what's called a transformational dilemma, which can feel uncomfortable to go through, because each stage has this homeostasis, where if you're born and raised in this worldview, your psyche also sums itself up with ideas, life experiences and the culture of that stage. It's like you're made up of colored jelly, and your moving through to a different colored region, but there's a barrier that will shred most of you, the jelly, in order for the psyche to make space to assimilate the next region. Except, it's still stubborn, and there's no pain killers to numb the pain. You'll have to feel it throughout, and integrate it. 

   In this case, you'll be traveling to stage green, so my short advice is to take it slow and steady. I recommend Ken Wilber, who added these developments onto spiral dynamics, and Carl Jung, for the shadow work. Definitely, this process can sometimes be slow and painful, but hang in there. Might be also useful to develop visualizations for a lifestyle that looks like the next stage, and keep integrating, along with spiritual methods like mindfulness and so on.

   I'm keeping this short, not to derail the OP's thread, even though it's relevant. I can easily do hundreds of pages of deep analysis, on and on. But really, that's just me doing your workout routine. I've shredded myself more than enough, and am not gonna steal your shredding process onto me. I don't even know what you actually are (pun). Go and do practice, and practice will do you!?

   Have a good journey, you and OPs.

[Shin]

Stop having fancies ideas and just empirically experience what I'm saying.

???

[Danioover9000]

   And for the husband, if you're gonna practice either karezza or Tantric sex, it's possible to experience orgasms that's non ejaculatory. I've had them, and they're great! Though typically it's likely you might get blue balls early on. So, it's ok to release most times and be mindful of any negative emotions that come up later.?

[Lento]

@Shin

I'm sorry, but you seem to be having biases towards your own ideas. You seem to be demonising porn and masturbation for whatever reason(s), and you seem to be valuing the chakras system for enlightenment. Yet, you seem to be keeping those biases for yourself.

14 hours ago, Shin said:

Stop having fancies ideas and just empirically experience what I'm saying.

I don't want to empirically experience something that is not explicit about its biases/goals. I could easily tell you that holding your breath for one hour is the best thing you could ever do. Stop having fancies ideas and just empirically experience what I'm saying. Go and dive deep down into the ocean and experience what I'm saying.

What exactly are the benefits that may come from abstaining from ejaculation? Is it just more energy? I can simply replace it with more food and more exercise. Is there anything else to it?

I'm waiting for your response and I hope it will not disappoint me like the ones before.

@Danioover9000 Thank you so much ??

Edited February 9, 2020 by Lento

[Gili Trawangan]

25 minutes ago, Lento said:

What exactly are the benefits that may come from abstaining from ejaculation?

I think it depends on the person, this is the caveat.

But for me (tested very recently), more energy, more testosterone, more confidence and better social skills. An overall higher vibration. Deeper voice (that girls definitely respond to).

These are just off the top of my head. Plus, for me, porn is poison that leads to the opposite of everything I wrote above. 

[Lento]

@Gili Trawangan

Thank you. I appreciate your comment.

I experience all of these results and more with only 30 minutes of exercising every morning. The more the better, of course. Moreover, ejaculating releases the tension that gets stored in my body.

So, that's my experience. I'm still not sure I will try abstaining from ejaculation, but at least now I understand it's not just a dogma. Thank you ??

Edited February 9, 2020 by Lento

[Shin]

1 hour ago, Lento said:

@Shin

I'm sorry, but you seem to be having biases towards your own ideas. You seem to be demonising porn and masturbation for whatever reason(s), and you seem to be valuing the chakras system for enlightenment. Yet, you seem to be keeping those biases for yourself.

I don't want to empirically experience something that is not explicit about its biases/goals. I could easily tell you that holding your breath for one hour is the best thing you could ever do. Stop having fancies ideas and just empirically experience what I'm saying. Go and dive deep down into the ocean and experience what I'm saying.

What exactly are the benefits that may come from abstaining from ejaculation? Is it just more energy? I can simply replace it with more food and more exercise. Is there anything else to it?

I'm waiting for your response and I hope it will not disappoint me like the ones before.

@Danioover9000 Thank you so much ??

 

If you ejaculate, you shorten your life expectancy, your health as a whole, and your energetic level.
By energetic level I mean how much you can do in a day, and how amazing you feel both physically and mentally.

That's explicit enough, and now if you keep doing it, and not try seriously to restrain from it, then you're just burrying your head in the sand.

I don' care what you guys do, if you believe me, or if you agree with me though, I'm just telling you that you're wasting a big chunk of your health and energy for 5 seconds of pleasure per day (assuming you only fap once a day).

That must be how Leo feels sometimes, trying to tell things that are so good for you, but you insist on being a donkey and telling yourself "NOOOOOOOOOOOO I can't do it, this isn't even true, I'm a donkey !!! I SWEAR !!!"

Edited February 9, 2020 by Shin

[Danioover9000]

@Lento

6 hours ago, Lento said:

@Shin

I'm sorry, but you seem to be having biases towards your own ideas. You seem to be demonising porn and masturbation for whatever reason(s), and you seem to be valuing the chakras system for enlightenment. Yet, you seem to be keeping those biases for yourself.

I don't want to empirically experience something that is not explicit about its biases/goals. I could easily tell you that holding your breath for one hour is the best thing you could ever do. Stop having fancies ideas and just empirically experience what I'm saying. Go and dive deep down into the ocean and experience what I'm saying.

What exactly are the benefits that may come from abstaining from ejaculation? Is it just more energy? I can simply replace it with more food and more exercise. Is there anything else to it?

I'm waiting for your response and I hope it will not disappoint me like the ones before.

@Danioover9000 Thank you so much ??

   NoFap is an ideology that is designed implicitly as an addiction recovery program that specifically targets strong addictions to pornography.

   I've done some self experimental work on NoFap on myself, because I have had a light addiction to watching porn and masturbating to that, 1-2 times a day. I joined because I had personally suffered from some degree of lethargy, laziness and Brian fog.

   This is what I found after a year of nofap: some peaks of energy, some increase of productivity and not so much brain fog.  Also increase in confidence, less social anxiety, more will power, clarity in thinking and more presence/appreciation.

   I also discovered somethings I didn't expect: Insomnia, increased aggression towards men and women, paranoia around failing to 'beat my nofap streak', paranoia about my sexuality, and others sexuality. Obsessive resistance to horniness, disappointment to random erections I had. Strong negative attitude towards 'sex addicts', and Pornography, putting celibate monks and spiritual master's on a pedestal, and too much thinking and supporting NoFap that I sometimes find myself dogmatic. Increase in mood swings(perhaps the same conditions Victorian women suffered from). I identified as a 'fapstronaut', 'nofaper', and clung to those labels.

   If you do have strong compulsory behaviors on Pornography, then NoFap is for you, from my experience. However, if you don't have severe pornography addiction, and you have benefited from NoFap, I think it's time to forget it and move on. I'm in the process of getting rid of this ideology out of my system, because I'm already benefited from it. To me, it's good to a point.

   Of course, every ideology and it's following hates whistle blowers, but I think NoFap is weak: it relies on demonizing pornography, reliance on spiritual literature/techniques and praises celibacy despite having nothing to do with the original aim of NoFap, and demonizes masturbation regardless of the individual and his/her circumstances. To me, it's starting to be similar to black/blue/red pill ideology, and it's limiting me. I hope I'm not offended you or anyone reading this.

@Lento Your welcome! ?

   

   

[Lento]

@Shin I'm sorry, but my body knows better than your ideology.

And it seems like not-ejaculating has some cons, such as;

• Throwing in claims without proof; 

  6 hours ago, Shin said:

  If you ejaculate, you shorten your life expectancy, your health as a whole, and your energetic level.

  By energetic level I mean how much you can do in a day, and how amazing you feel both physically and mentally.

  Add also that I feel incredibly good after ejaculation.

• Being defensive, and easily getting triggered; which is clear from the fact that is below ??
• Name-calling; 

  6 hours ago, Shin said:

  but you insist on being a donkey and telling yourself "NOOOOOOOOOOOO I can't do it, this isn't even true, I'm a donkey !!! I SWEAR !!!"

  I hope you've had fun. Now, it's time to move on. You need to read @Danioover9000's comment.

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Lento

   NoFap is an ideology that is designed implicitly as an addiction recovery program that specifically targets strong addictions to pornography.

   I've done some self experimental work on NoFap on myself, because I have had a light addiction to watching porn and masturbating to that, 1-2 times a day. I joined because I had personally suffered from some degree of lethargy, laziness and Brian fog.

   This is what I found after a year of nofap: some peaks of energy, some increase of productivity and not so much brain fog.  Also increase in confidence, less social anxiety, more will power, clarity in thinking and more presence/appreciation.

   I also discovered somethings I didn't expect: Insomnia, increased aggression towards men and women, paranoia around failing to 'beat my nofap streak', paranoia about my sexuality, and others sexuality. Obsessive resistance to horniness, disappointment to random erections I had. Strong negative attitude towards 'sex addicts', and Pornography, putting celibate monks and spiritual master's on a pedestal, and too much thinking and supporting NoFap that I sometimes find myself dogmatic. Increase in mood swings(perhaps the same conditions Victorian women suffered from). I identified as a 'fapstronaut', 'nofaper', and clung to those labels.

   If you do have strong compulsory behaviors on Pornography, then NoFap is for you, from my experience. However, if you don't have severe pornography addiction, and you have benefited from NoFap, I think it's time to forget it and move on. I'm in the process of getting rid of this ideology out of my system, because I'm already benefited from it. To me, it's good to a point.

   Of course, every ideology and it's following hates whistle blowers, but I think NoFap is weak: it relies on demonizing pornography, reliance on spiritual literature/techniques and praises celibacy despite having nothing to do with the original aim of NoFap, and demonizes masturbation regardless of the individual and his/her circumstances. To me, it's starting to be similar to black/blue/red pill ideology, and it's limiting me. I hope I'm not offended you or anyone reading this.

@Lento Your welcome! ?

Thanks again ???? This is very insightful!

[weareacouple]

HI EVERYONR, this is the wife half of weareacouple and my husband did tell me that he started a thread on here and I have finally had time to check it our and WOW it seems that there is a lot of interested in sex addiction, porn, masturbation, nudity and everything that is associated with them. Not only the number of people brave and open enough to post thoughts and replies, but also the high number of views.

I do agree with everything my husband posted concerning our sex life while we are together and also when we are alone. I do think that the use of porn should be used with extreme care because (just like a drug) it can pull you into an addiction that is hard to come back from. There is no question (for myself) that watching porn heightens the climaxing experiences and achieving a squirting climax is much easier when using a powerful vibrator and porn. I know it also helps my husband get those ongoing climaxes when he is alone as well.     

[Nahm]

@weareacouple Welcome to the forum

What distinctions do you guys make from ‘we have a healthy sex life’, to arrive at ‘we have an addiction’?

[weareacouple]

13 hours ago, Nahm said:

@weareacouple Welcome to the forum

What distinctions do you guys make from ‘we have a healthy sex life’, to arrive at ‘we have an addiction’?

I am not sure if we described our sex life as Health or Great, however we would consider having uncontrollable sex with your spouse both healthy and great! That being said, I do know what you mean and respect your statement. I know it has been said millions of times by addicted people, "I have control over my addiction, I can stop if I really want to and it is not hurting me or anyone else". Meanwhile, their life is going down the drain and usually taking loved ones with it. In our case however, the previous statement is true, but it is only because we are married to each other. Yes, I would agree that many out there would consider our sex actions to be "weird", but that is probably the only way they are being effected. We recently had sex in a Pure Pleasure Adult Store back in their video arcade area in front of 3 or 4 guys getting  live sex show and I don't think anyone was harmed by our actions and it was a pretty wild experience. 

[Nahm]

@weareacouple Thanks for sharing another story, they are interesting...but do you have an answer to my question, or no?

Perhaps there is no addiction, but a cover for the voyerisom being read here?

If so, there’s no problem with wanting people to know how great your sex life is.

If that statement is unsettling....how, why? 

That likely brings to mind the more obvious question....exactly who are these people you speak of, who say sex porn & masturbation is “bad behavior”?

I’m wondering, if those are natural & fine, and a lens of “Biblical” is what’s underlying. 

Biblical, or an interpretation of the Bible, is often paradoxically used, to judge others or one’s self. 

What if the Bible has no truth at all, but it makes the sex feel taboo, in believing that it inherently does? This would kick the voyerisom up a notch, relative to your perspective of your friends which “judge you”. Maybe they aren’t.  In that case, there is also no problem, no “addiction”, sans to diversion perhaps. But no one else is harmed in this. 

If any of this is resonating, maybe there’s a loop...I judge, project, rectify (feel better about it via sex), then judge self for that ...repeat. 

 Maybe not. Actually, definitely not. 

Also, somewhat related to this...have you experienced The Mindfuck? The reality sized one? If so, in terms of feeling, sensation, consciousness daily, how would you compare this “after life” of it, to the pleasure of the almost constant sex?

[weareacouple]

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

@weareacouple Thanks for sharing another story, they are interesting...but do you have an answer to my question, or no?

Perhaps there is no addiction, but a cover for the voyerisom being read here?

If so, there’s no problem with wanting people to know how great your sex life is.

If that statement is unsettling....how, why? 

That likely brings to mind the more obvious question....exactly who are these people you speak of, who say sex porn & masturbation is “bad behavior”?

I’m wondering, if those are natural & fine, and a lens of “Biblical” is what’s underlying. 

Biblical, or an interpretation of the Bible, is often paradoxically used, to judge others or one’s self. 

What if the Bible has no truth at all, but it makes the sex feel taboo, in believing that it inherently does? This would kick the voyerisom up a notch, relative to your perspective of your friends which “judge you”. Maybe they aren’t.  In that case, there is also no problem, no “addiction”, sans to diversion perhaps. But no one else is harmed in this. 

If any of this is resonating, maybe there’s a loop...I judge, project, rectify (feel better about it via sex), then judge self for that ...repeat. 

 Maybe not. Actually, definitely not. 

Also, somewhat related to this...have you experienced The Mindfuck? The reality sized one? If so, in terms of feeling, sensation, consciousness daily, how would you compare this “after life” of it, to the pleasure of the almost constant sex?

if you are using the word addiction as "an almost impossible urge to control a behavior", YES, I know my husband and I would both call it an addiction to achieve the climax "high". Just as drug addicts have use different drugs to achieve their high, we will admit to doing some pretty crazy things (including voyeurism in reverse or being watched). The people we talk to about it (and as you know by now, we will talk to anyone about it) are close friends in (and out of) our Christian community. We do not believe that the Bible looks down upon porn, masturbation or nudity, but it is the interruption by people that is the real issue. Just as those guys stood and watch my husband giving his cock to me from behind, I also believe that those same friends that condemn our actions (if they could do it anonymously) would also stand a watch the same action. Reaching the level for Mindfuck is a level the many (if not most) do not reach during the act of sex. Or maybe a better way to put it would be, they do not allow themselves to reach. It is a level that (I will confess) that is not reached often by my husband and myself either, but when we give it the time, it is truly another level of climax. The best way that I can explain it is, not only my pussy is getting fucked but also my mind and my complete body goes into complete and extended climax.   

[Applegarden]

Well first of all i want to say i am a merely former masturbation addict and a virgin (23). I still masturbate occasionally but for me there is a dillemma that started a long time ago, first it was the fear of being shamed, fear that i am wrong for who i am and i should feel guilty for it, then i started to notice the uselessness to it as i started doing spiritual practice, now i see that really affects my creativity, mental alertness, time i spend thinking about sexual stuff and spend time being lustful, and is acctually an obstacle to me being blissful, as the body stores its capacity of the reproduction fluid and lets say this energy starts expressing in different way, goes upward and centers in my heart chakra, vishudda, anja and sahasrar most importantly. Now this feeling robs me of fears, wanting to indulge in short term compulsions and escapism like video games, youtube, junk food and really centers me in stilness, not wanting to impress people and opossite gender especially and you know how many delusions one can fall with that. In that state or flowing life really feels like illusion to me and to trade that for this pleasure i personally don't want anymore, every time i masturbate, i know my intuition, intelect, long term decision making, even my creativity suffers from that and i know its just so useless (not wrong or something to be shamed, you can do what ever you want and nobody is an authority on your life other than you and not masturbating acctualy helps me to hold my values, be hard to make angry and protect my own subtle artristy and remember that i am not what i think i am). Even now another thing arose that i don't want to masturbate because it attaches strans or energetic chords to your genitals, left side of my heart, and makes me think of opposite gender and the need of partner or wanting a spouse arises and i feel my life should not be about it, so i don't want to be affected by this force to interfere as little as possible in my future decisions and i don't want to affect those women who i masturbated to, as they maybe in relationship themselves or don't want to immagine me having sex with them. And the worst thing is, if you masturbate or have sex with multiple people the mindset it creates, to just ignore everything and do it with someone, if they look good or fit some first impression now they are the center of your attention and that is not good for you and especially with porn i feel like you are owerwhelimg the lust with more and more lust and making it more and more of an unconscious behvaiour that you just have to do it, no questions asked. I might ask, where are you hurrying, why such a need to do it now? Why not delay it as counter-intuitive as it seems? Do you really need it that much here and now? What happens if you just drop it as something that might be not needed for you, just for like 30 minutes, maybe it will increase in quality. Note that i am not shaming you for anything whatsoever, thats not my point, these are just my guessings about the topic based from my sexual experience. I also haven't got sex, and acctually by every passing day, week, month, year i care less and less, as something really is happening to me and the renounciation of my physical desires come to an end, i acctually accelerate them quite a bit. I would love to hear your response. I mean if you want it do it but at the end of the day the question stands, how much do you really need it? Its a quite sophisticated thing to manage and huge effort is into it, if you don't get it you suffer, maybe even imensly depends on the factors and try to escape it again by release in porn, imo this leads to a big psychological collapse one day, by more and more growing number of factors, age, impotence, restrictions due to heart disease, depression, change in partner, death of the partner, divorce, accident, whatever, you get the point. You also might have a constant fear of not getting it, do you?

Edited February 11, 2020 by Applegarden

[Applegarden]

About it being a biblical thing, well such a thing doesn't make sense to me, as guilt and envy, status, sexuality, fame, authority, martyr, animal planet thing, who is the king of some idea to make others feel worse and then be some kind of a saviour, well maybe there is wisdom to this morality but how distorted it has to be if we recall 2000 years of current events of human history, and history of sexuality and christianity.

By the way why would you need others approval to express your passion to sex if you both agree with it? If you both are transparent, what else do you need really? There are quite a lot of people that will acctually want to make you feel bad for your passion. Its better to be open than repressed. I would suggesting working on your fears of what other people will think about you and fear of judgement and go and do it if you want, nothing and nobody is stopping you. If you still feel something is wrong try different angles, still if you feel something wrong, maybe time to renounce it.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Applegarden