nudity, porn & masturbation, why are they still considered bad behavior?

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, weareacouple said:

We are both addicted to sex and when we are together the sex is great however we both travel aliot for our jobs (like she is this week) and when we are apart, we both use porn and masturbation extensively to get our needs met

The word "addiction" has a big load to it and it depends on what kinds of needs you are satisfying.
If you simply have a high sex drive, then I think that satisfying it with masturbation is perfectly fine.
However, if you masturbate in order to satisfy your other needs (such as companionship, or admiration) by injecting your brain with a hormone cocktail, then I believe that you are in effect dysregulating your body.

Other than that, in my experience, watching porn has a negative effect on my sexual performance because it sets unrealistic standards for sex. These standards include looks, behavior of partners and the general outline for what sex is supposed to be like. I find that conditioning my mind to follow this outline is limiting and "sips through" to other aspects of my relationship. It introduces unnecessary, unconscious, judgement and creates emotional strain.

Another point is that supposedly (haven't investigated it myself), porn industry thrives on sexual exploitation of women and is common grounds for rape and abuse. By indulging in it, you are supporting such behaviors. I remember @Shin mentioning it and he may want to chime in.

Obviously, it has nothing to do with God-given morality to me, but I acknowledge that many Christians may be sexually repressed and show their frustration by being vocal about such topics. I find it to be very unfortunate.

 

[weareacouple]

3 minutes ago, tsuki said:

The word "addiction" has a big load to it and it depends on what kinds of needs you are satisfying.
If you simply have a high sex drive, then I think that satisfying it with masturbation is perfectly fine.
However, if you masturbate in order to satisfy your other needs (such as companionship, or admiration) by injecting your brain with a hormone cocktail, then I believe that you are in effect dysregulating your body.

Other than that, in my experience, watching porn has a negative effect on my sexual performance because it sets unrealistic standards for sex. These standards include looks, behavior of partners and the general outline for what sex is supposed to be like. I find that conditioning my mind to follow this outline is limiting and "sips through" to other aspects of my relationship. It introduces unnecessary, unconscious, judgement and creates emotional strain.

Another point is that supposedly (haven't investigated it myself), porn industry thrives on sexual exploitation of women and is common grounds for rape and abuse. By indulging in it, you are supporting such behaviors. I remember @Shin mentioning it and he may want to chime in.

Obviously, it has nothing to do with God-given morality to me, but I acknowledge that many Christians may be sexually repressed and show their frustration by being vocal about such topics. I find it to be very unfortunate.

 

I completely agree, if someone is replacing having sex with their mate with porn that is a bad trail to be on and you should make ajustments

[Joel3102]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Nothing wrong with sex, but it is one of the lower joys of life.

Most people's lives involve: sleep, eat, shit, work, fuck.

There are higher ways to live.

An awakening beats an orgasm every time.

If you're pre-occupied with sex, you're stuck on living from chakra 2. Which is pretty low. At some point you'd be wise to outgrow that. Doesn't mean you have to stop having sex, but it just becomes less of a priority in your life.

Of course lots of people judge sexual openness because they suppress their own sexuality.

Also, peoples' sex drives differ. Some low, some high.

Leo, do you think Yoga is the best way to help transcend the second chakra? I’m fucking obsessed with sex to the point where it just gets annoying. I even have a gf so no problem there but the mind wanders and seeks further stimulation. I hope this is something that can be transcended.

[Shiva99]

Nothing wrong with sex and masturbation. Porn however, and especially being addicted to it, is pretty fucking bad if you suffer from it. It can ruin your life the same way alcohol or drug abuse does. Too bad it is still not recognized as a serious addiction by the mainstream, and thus it's impossible to get diagnosed. Enough people are researching it, so it will definitely become part of Dsm as an official addiction sooner or later. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Shiva99

[Shiva99]

1 hour ago, weareacouple said:

I completely agree, if someone is replacing having sex with their mate with porn that is a bad trail to be on and you should make ajustments

The real question is, if you actually have any control on this whatsoever. Porn is a multibillion dollar industry. It's not there to satisfy your needs once and after that be done with it. They want you to come back, and watch more of it, and they know you will, because it's addictive as hell. That shit satisfies your reward circuitry like no other. True poison.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Shiva99

[tsuki]

2 hours ago, weareacouple said:

I completely agree, if someone is replacing having sex with their mate with porn that is a bad trail to be on and you should make ajustments

It's not just that replacing sex with masturbation to porn is unhealthy for a relationship.
My point was that any contact with porn has negative consequences, regardless of whether you have sex with your partner, or not.

Pornstars have a certain way of presenting themselves: looks, behavior, submissiveness, etc that are engineered to cater to the widest audience possible. By jacking off to them, you are training your brain with a very powerful stimulant to expect such behavior from women during sex. 

Of course, it should be said that if your partner accepts that and finds this behavior enjoyable, then it is absolutely fine.

On the other hand, I would speculate that pornstars are not typical women and they mostly value money and derive self-worth from their attractiveness. By framing your partner into exhibiting their behavior, I wouldn't be surprised if you were damaging her self-esteem unintentionally.

Edited February 6, 2020 by tsuki

[weareacouple]

@Johnny5

3 hours ago, Johnny5 said:

Well, as you can see, the responses of this forum will be something of a mixed bag.

Probably to be expected, but I sincerely hope they won't chase you off.

I'd love it if they could take in your perspective and use it to liberate their own hangups, instead of them trying to "convert" you or anything. This place can be nasty like that.

Be well!

We realize the subject is pretty explosive and we understand and except the different viewpoints and reactions and are more than willing to react to whatever is thrown at us.  

[SickLuv]

Do you use drug or any spices ?

do you always have a high sex drives, same all the year ?

aren't you feel wasted from sex ?

could you abstain from sex for a day ? one of you ? both ?

Do you still look for something higher in sex ( high peak ) or do you maintain a particular habit ?

what do you think of tantra ?

How do you think someone could improve his sex life if you were a teacher ( both of you )

Edited February 6, 2020 by SickLuv

[weareacouple]

@SickLuvI will try to answer your questions in the order you asked them:

when I am with my wife, unless we are very tired, I am usually good for a twofer with only the arousal I get from my wife and her talents. My wife can pretty much go non stop for as much as I can give her. we never turn each other down for sex at any time. If I need help keeping up with her, Viagra is usually my drug of choice. I have experimented with several different over the counter supplements.

yes we both agree the sex drive started when we were very young

yes wasted most often

yes we have missed days but not too often

yes we are always experimenting for a higher rush from sex and that includes masturbation 

with the right person we believe strongly in tantra experiences from sex

[weareacouple]

We have both said that it would be very difficult to have the addiction that we have without being married to each other. We also agree that it must be very difficult to be married to a sex addicted person if you do not have the same sex attraction. 

We handle desensitization the same way that other couples should (but usually don't) handle it and that is to continuously keep sex interesting and for us we have agreed that there is nothing that is off the table (as long as it is legal).  

[Shin]

The reason porn and masturbation are «bad» are only because it's a waste of energy for a few fleeting moment of pleasure.

It isn't morally wrong, and even if it were, that would be relative to a specific point of view.

You have to test it empirically (and not just for a week), to see why we say those things.

Debating about it is the same as talking about spirituality, nothing is really in your direct experience, it's just stories that you agree or not in your head.

Those stories counts for nothing, direct experience is everything.

 

[Lento]

3 hours ago, Shin said:

The reason porn and masturbation are «bad» are only because it's a waste of energy for a few fleeting moment of pleasure.

It isn't morally wrong, and even if it were, that would be relative to a specific point of view.

You have to test it empirically (and not just for a week), to see why we say those things.

Debating about it is the same as talking about spirituality, nothing is really in your direct experience, it's just stories that you agree or not in your head.

Those stories counts for nothing, direct experience is everything.

Would you say the same thing about sex?

[Danioover9000]

@weareacouple  To be honest, this is the first I've come across users this open about their sexuality. So, congrats on an amazing, higher than average sex life! I'm now motivated towards improving my own as well!

   I would consider it an addiction if it becomes compulsory behavior. Like if while I'm working, I have the urge to fuck, and I'm resisting more than usual to relieve myself, and if this occurs daily, I would consider that compulsory.

   Or when I'm doing my hobbies, like drawing, and a mental sexual image comes up and I feel pretty horny and now I'm resisting it trying to change the nature of my subject, and it's gradually increasing, that's compulsory behavior.

   Or when with family and friends, if I'm really addicted, and resisting the urge while being with them, that's compulsory. Or secretly wanting to fuck some of your friends, whilst resisting it on a daily, that's compulsory behavior.

   Or any bad habits that are personal, like nail biting, fiddling with fingers, slight rocking back and forth, these are subtle compulsory behaviors. Yes there are obvious intense compulsory behaviors, and subtle compulsory behaviors.

   Or if you're doing something online, like banking, or Facebook(any social media), or watching videos and there's another window about porn, I would consider that compulsory if that's repeatedly done.

   This would ultimately come down to one or both of you deciding to either maintain or change this lifestyle. If you're familiar with spiral dynamics, and interested in moving up the spiral, then your values on sexuality and sex can change as you go up.

   The sex, overtime, say used to consist of mostly normal sex positions like doggy and missionary or other variations that is mixed with intimacy/dominance with the thinking about how useful/transactionary this sex is, expecting to receive as much as you give (stage Orange thinking), might at some point look like stage green, were you involve more intimacy in positions, hands, feet and kissing, regarding more about how the other is feeling than you are,even involving other people (stage green thinking), and if you keep at it, it might become something like Taoist style sex, karezza and Tantric sex, with the aim of having mystical experiences/awakening/paranormal experiences/ enlightenment through the sex, and it could keep getting more radical and spiritual, that even comparing Tantric sex or Taoist style sex to these newer forms of sex is too bizarre, yet it's evolution happening.

   So, I hope both of you are not addicted to sex, and if you are, then I hope you both recovery over time.

   Good night!

   

[weareacouple]

5 hours ago, Shin said:

The reason porn and masturbation are «bad» are only because it's a waste of energy for a few fleeting moment of pleasure.

It isn't morally wrong, and even if it were, that would be relative to a specific point of view.

You have to test it empirically (and not just for a week), to see why we say those things.

Debating about it is the same as talking about spirituality, nothing is really in your direct experience, it's just stories that you agree or not in your head.

Those stories counts for nothing, direct experience is everything.

 

with due respect shin, I don't think society looks down on porn and masturbation because the people who are doing them are wasting their time,

[Danioover9000]

@Shin  @weareacouple  Before I forget, I actually didn't address your actual question, sorry.

   Nudity, porn and masturbation are only considered bad relative to the individual/collective's view from their stage of the spiral. When a tribe king (stage purple) wants to visit the royal family and Queen Elizabeth (stage blue) the queen/royal family refuses the visitation, because of the traditional/monarchical and conservative view about nudity that disallows a savage looking king, despite how the king thinks that they're both equal because of title and rulership, and how he normalized to his and his tribes appearance. The difference in world views is too great for both to recognize.

   Same with Pornography (Sigh), and masturbation. How bad it is is relative to the individual/collective's stage and worldview. Sure, viewing porn videos and paying for their services is supporting that industry, but is masturbation still bad? How about when I go old school, memory is so detailed and vivid that I masturbate to that memory of porn instead? Still evil?

   Is pornography bad that we should prohibit it? Remember the alcohol prohibition era, where criminal gangs thrived off of the ban? What would that look like with porn instead? See how counter intuitive calling something bad, then moralizing an action against and using a means to spread this ideology? have that running beneath a following's group consciousness leads to more evil, by virtue of their collective ignorance.

   It all depends on how it's used, and if you're doing it consciously. Conscious nudity, conscious porn, conscious masturbation, and any issues that creep up in your awareness will auto correct. This is key, because evolution is still ongoing, and Maya is continuing to refresh it's illusions. Porn industry today, mostly stage orange with a few red elements, will die off in several decades, a century or so, and become stage green porn, tailored to stage green people. Is it still bad, then? No. With enough consciousness, you won't be too bothered by it any more, because of other factors like old school masturbation, having a relationship, development of sexuality, integrating the shadow, on and on. Of course! Relative to what we got now, To a healthy psychological person, on the path of growing more consciousness, that future is good to work to. To sex workers, pimps, sex traffickers, porn stars, prn industry CEOs, porn consumers, all mostly at stage Orange, that future is so threatening they instantly call it evil, and will find ways of demonizing that version.

   Have a good day, and if this isn't really an issue for you, then continue doing what you both do, until you both are satisfied and move on to newer experiences, creating more joyful and fonder memories together. ?

   

[Raze]

 

[Rebecca Kalamata]

I can't figure out if you have a concern or just want to chat about people's experience after 25 years of marriage with sex.

It's weird to think there are people who consider masturbating to be cheating. Quite backwards to me. Porn is porn is porn. I love porn but I never once looked at porn on my computer cause I didn't want to be bombarded with porn ads OR to be led down a kinky path that I didn't know I'd respond to and then be stuck with it. I was lucky, I could rent videos and read books. 

I'm sorry about all you guys who are having to contend with porn addiction on top of everything else. I wish there was a religion in which the most revered were priestesses who were devoted to teaching and having sex. Imagine a culture in which the highest honor was to have one's daughter be excepted into such a priesthood and men not having to be addicted to masturbation or playing pick-up and trickydick. Where they could actually be taught how to make love. Where women go to learn how to make love.

As for sleeping nude....hugh? Don't pajamas and nighties get all bunched up and uncomfortable? Don't most people sleep nude unless there is a heating issue?

I'm sorry for all the jackedupedness in human cultures. I'm sorry that we have to go through all this fire just to arrive where we start. I'm hopeful for what is after nirvana.

So rock on and goodun to ya. And hey! How about sex on psychedelics? 

[Emerald]

On 2/6/2020 at 1:57 AM, weareacouple said:

We are both addicted to sex and when we are together the sex is great however we both travel aliot for our jobs (like she is this week) and when we are apart, we both use porn and masturbation extensively to get our needs met. When we discuss this with our friends (especially our Christian ones) many of them say that it is wrong and even cheating on our mate.  As far as nudity goes...we both believe that nudity was the plan from the beginning ang even that using clothing to hide the body is even NOT Biblical. We think it would probably be hypocritical to post this thread and hide behind a profile so we are posting our picture to let everyone know that we are serious about discussing the subjects. Hope to hear from you all. 

No judgment here. And of course, there is no ethical issue with any of this if it breaches no one’s boundaries... and it appears that it doesn’t.

That said, have you explored into the roots of the addiction together?

Addiction of any kind can reveal deeper issues that don’t necessarily have to do with the content of the addiction itself. And since you both have the same addiction, your relationship can be great for exploring the underlying causes deeper.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Emerald

[Rebecca Kalamata]

11 hours ago, weareacouple said:

with due respect shin, I don't think society looks down on porn and masturbation because the people who are doing them are wasting their time,

In Greece, the word 'malakia' directly translated means masturbation. Malakas is a male who masturbates, malakismeni is a female who masturbates. These words are thrown around with the frequency of, 'fuck' in the English language. It has occurred to me that one can determine the maturity of a young guy by how often he calls his friends, 'Malakas'. It is constant with teenagers and then drops off as they become adults but conversation among men is peppered with, 'the malakas' as opposed to, 'the jerk, fool, asshole'. I'll never forget doing something stupid and hearing my mother-in-law refer to me as, 'the malakismeni'. Ouch! I realized that I was finally learning Greek which she had not realized.

'Malakias' is used in much the same way as 'bullshit' is used in English. "Kane malakias all the time".  S/he masturbates all the time; does stupid things, wastes my/his/her time. So I'm not sure what you are getting at but since I wouldn't trust a guy who says he never masturbates (I'd assume he was lying and believing me to be a fool) and I'd think a female who says she never masturbates is either a liar or a fool for being prudish and ignorant of her own body, and not to be trusted either.

So a society that, 'looks down on porn and masturbation' for any other reason than that it is a waste of time can't be trusted which is sortof the problem, no? I have always found masturbation a good way to ease me into sleep when my partner is gone. What's your excuse?

However what's up with porn, masturbation and the internet is a sad thing and brings no end of grief. Be wise my friends. Be wise.

[Shin]

19 hours ago, Lento said:

Would you say the same thing about sex?

If you ejaculate during sex, yes.