What if the "infinite" is finite and is just the entirety of the Now?

[4201]

If you can bear with the rationalist type of depiction of reality for a bit, this post isn't about denying any of the spiritual realizations made by seekers but to realign the rationalist point of view with them. I know many of you threw away logic and rationality off the window because it didn't fit your understanding of reality anymore (after experience). But what if it could fit if we dig hard enough? This is what this post is exploring, in a way. 

What if when people experience the "infinite" they are simply becoming aware of the signal of every input nerve (the body) but also every neuron that is holding information (memory). What if "the infinite" is just experiencing every memory you have, all at once? (Which I would call the entirety of the Now) Those memories could be memories you usually have access to or memories only the subconscious has access to. Of course imagination is probably a part of this infinite too, that is mixing the memories you had in creative ways to create new stuff in your mind. But this new stuff is always a linear combination of what was seen.

I could claim all art is linear combination of what was experienced but the most profound art comes from people experiencing the most subtle things. I realize this is a very dull way of defining art, but it doesn't really take away any of the magic that comes with art. If you feel something when you look at an art piece then there's something in that art piece which makes you relate with your own memories (a subset of your Now).

I doubt anyone experienced true infinity and came back, because otherwise they would be able to draw something that is infinitely different from everything I've experienced. Instead, enlightened people seem simply to have a better grasp of being and more free of the ego. There's no doubt that becoming aware of every memory at once would be highly overwhelming and that anyone that would experience that would say they saw infinity. But this infinity doesn't have to be infinite, it could simply the entirety of you, the entirety of the capacity of your monkey mind. This capacity is HUGE, just think about all the people you know, places you've been, movies you've seen, things you studied, games you know how to play, books you read etc. etc. etc. Then imagine the linear combination of ALL of that, that is, every possible thing your mind could imagine based on what you experienced. Isn't that big enough to be seen as "infinity" by the psychedelic users?

 

And I guess ego like this explanation because it is rational. Of course living by rational explanations is a simple trap of the ego because what ego can deform what you consider rational at any time. Yet like puzzle pieces fitting together, I feel pleasure when such a far-fetch concept like "experiencing the infinite" fits my understanding.

I guess this is just a simple realization that being aware isn't limited to being aware of every physical sensation but also every memory that is present yet not necessarily observed. 

If you disagree and you think this infinity cannot be "the limit of my mind" and must be actually infinite, feel free to answer I'm looking for counter arguments. I'll experience infinity at some point too so if you can't debunk me I might debunk myself.

Edited February 3, 2020 by 4201

[Gili Trawangan]

24 minutes ago, 4201 said:

I'll experience infinity at some point too so if you can't debunk me I might debunk myself.

Yes, this is a good idea.

[Leo Gura]

No, you speak nonsense.

Do the work and reach actual Infinity.

[MAYA EL]

@Leo GuraYou probably dont think its possible for someone to have experienced a angle of awakening that transcends your personal level or as you say a "higher level " do you? 

But you have to realise that your opinion (fundamentally)  is no more accurate/important then the rest of humanity's concepts and opinions and that your not infallible just like the rest of us and that it is very passable for you to occasionally  get something wrong/ misunderstan a experience. 

 

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, MAYA EL said:

You probably dont think its possible for someone to have experienced a angle of awakening that transcends your personal level or as you say a "higher level " do you?

No, it is possible. 

But the trick is, have you actually done it?

And a higher or different level will not invalidate the core things I teach about the Absolute.

[Enlightenment]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And a higher or different level will not invalidate the core things I teach about the Absolute.

Well, it will invalidate the whole notion of the Ultimate Reality, if you can get higher and higher and it doesn't seem to end

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Well, it will invalidate the whole notion of the Ultimate Reality, if you can get higher and higher and it doesn't seem to end

No, Ultimate Reality is right here, right now. Infinity is right here, right now, always. There is nothing but Infinity.

[MAYA EL]

@Leo Gura of course I have and it in fact most definitely  invalidates  the core of your teaching in pretty much every way you could imagine. 

I just dont share my findings with others for reasons that I cant share (and there's several reasons) 

But also I won't share partly out of respect for you and your forum because I wouldn't like someone pooping on my parade so likewise I won't poop on theirs granted I I voice my opinion here and there on various topics and usually in favor of the not so popular view point but that's still not getting into the information (for lack of a better term ) that  you have yet to scratch  the surface of and I hate saying it like that because it sounds so arrogant and competition like but that's the downside to language is it wasn't really made for talking about the thing that made the language lol it's just to simple for the job much like a fork trying to eat all the food off the plate its impossible because it just a tool for the hungry man holding it.

[Leo Gura]

@MAYA EL Then you don't need to be on this forum.

[4201]

@Serotoninluv Feel free not to answer if you don't feel like answering, but I would highly appreciate your view on this topic. When writting this I was wondering "Hmm, what would serotonin would say?" 

I am aware that this is just a story, a theorem the ego tries to use to simplify, project unto concept its notion of the Now and the Infinite. I am aware that to truly be I need to let go of all conceptualizations, including this one. Yet some conceptualizations are useful as pointers to no conceptualization. (Otherwise there would be no point to reading books and learning theory.) Do you think that this idea has merit as a pointer? If not, can you find a flaw that would deconstruct this paradigm?

No offense to the entire rest of the forum. I would appreciate if any type of counter-point would be brought to the table but for now here all we have is unjustified direct denial and some off-topic conversation.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by 4201

[Leo Gura]

@4201 You are not aware. That's the problem. Thinking you're aware vs being aware are two different things.

[SoonHei]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Ultimate Reality is right here, right now. Infinity is right here, right now, always.

a fish in the ocean, searching for the ocean...

[4201]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@4201 You are not aware. That's the problem. Thinking you're aware vs being aware are two different things.

There's no doubts that ego thinks I am not aware and I'm beating myself up every day for not being as aware as I would want to be (ego creating a fantasy of the Now in which I would be aware and constantly comparing) and sure trying to be aware of all that stuff is my daily challenge. However I would never claim that I'm anywhere near aware.

Yet I still come up with fun theories to debunk. I would never claim that coming up with such theories is a proof of my awareness, if I were aware I wouldn't play with them as I'm doing right now. I would just be. I am not yet aware of the pointlessness of such theories because I feel like there's something more I haven't discovered in them. I feel like such a theory, if it happen to be relatively true, could benefit my understanding of things because it directly points every part of Past into the Now.

PS: It's true that I used the verb "aware" in the previous message but it was a very different, relative and local type of awareness. I might not be aware on the absolute sense, but you can't argue against me that I am aware of the feel of the chair touching my ass for instance.

Edited February 3, 2020 by 4201

[purerogue]

16 minutes ago, 4201 said:

@Serotoninluv Feel free not to answer if you don't feel like answering, but I would highly appreciate your view on this topic. When writting this I was wondering "Hmm, what would serotonin would say?" 

I am aware that this is just a story, a theorem the ego tries to use to simplify, project unto concept its notion of the Now and the Infinite. I am aware that to truly be I need to let go of all conceptualizations, including this one. Yet some conceptualizations are useful as pointers to no conceptualization. (Otherwise there would be no point to reading books and learning theory.) Do you think that this idea has merit as a pointer? If not, can you find a flaw that would deconstruct this paradigm?

No offense to the entire rest of the forum. I would appreciate if any type of counter-point would be brought to the table but for now here all we have is unjustified direct denial and some off-topic conversation.  

It is good question, is reading books , learning concepts important, I would say it is not required, but it can be "important", mind is very complex, 

it might not be required for you in a full sense, but it might be needed for some part of you that will suffocate you if it is not put at ease.

It is very interesting balance, you see you should not bend to mind chatter, games, but you should not go against them either, there kinda must be understanding and acceptance from both sides so to say. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by purerogue

[Leo Gura]

@4201 You are lost in mind.

Sit silently and observe the consciousness of the present moment.

You have to train yourself to drop useless mental activity.

[4201]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@4201 You are lost in mind.

Sit silently and observe the consciousness of the present moment.

You have to train yourself to drop useless mental activity.

That I agree with and I wouldn't argue against that.

But likewise, I could be lost in my mind thinking about the pythagorean theorem. It would be as "wrong" in the sense that I'm lost in my mind and this is not awareness. Yet it doesn't make the pythagorean theorem false. I totally agree that this entire thread is selling a mind distraction. Yet I'm am not totally convinced that this mind distraction has no value as a pointer to the Now. Just not yet

It's true that in the end it doesn't change anything, whether the infinite is actually infinite or perceived by a limited mind to be infinite since it encompasses its entire capacity. It is indeed a useless detail but I guess it's addictive to the ego because it explains.

If I sit silently and observe the consciousness and I drop mental activity, I'll probably stop thinking about it. Perhaps I'll even forget about this whole distraction thing! But I doubt I will come up with a counter-argument against it. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by 4201

[4201]

Perhaps if I sit enough in consciousness I'll be able to let go my need for the validation of my ideas. Perhaps when an idea that completes my understanding of reality will come, I will simply be observe it and notice the pleasure it brings to my mind without identifying with it. Perhaps this thread is only motivated by the "fear of being wrong" and so I want people to either validate or debunk my claim to feel "right". That is indeed all egoic behavior.

Yet when it comes to producing your own spirituality theory, isn't it worth it to double check your ideas with feedback from your peers? Ego still thinks that its worth it in a sense and I must disidentify with that.

[purerogue]

Read SoonHei recent reply on post 

 

If you read it carefully and try it for a while, you might get some of answers you are looking for. 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

@Serotoninluv Feel free not to answer if you don't feel like answering, but I would highly appreciate your view on this topic. When writting this I was wondering "Hmm, what would serotonin would say?" 

One question I would ask is: what is your underlying energetic orientation? What is your desire and motivation pulling you toward? Is it to develop a conceptual construct that can satisfactorily explain phenomena and existential questions? Or is the desire and motivation to transcend rational constructs? These are very different orientations. 

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

@Serotoninluv

I am aware that this is just a story, a theorem the ego tries to use to simplify, project unto concept its notion of the Now and the Infinite. I am aware that to truly be I need to let go of all conceptualizations, including this one. Yet some conceptualizations are useful as pointers to no conceptualization. (Otherwise there would be no point to reading books and learning theory.) Do you think that this idea has merit as a pointer? If not, can you find a flaw that would deconstruct this paradigm?

I think this is a key to see the underlying orientation. . . When you say "I am aware. . .", it seems like a contracted "I am" within an intellectual/personal "I am". From a trascendent, higher "I AM" awareness, there is a very different relationship with construct creation. There is knowing of a "prior". 

16 hours ago, 4201 said:

But what if it could fit if we dig hard enough? This is what this post is exploring, in a way. 

This is like saying "what if a sandcastle could become grounded and permanent if we only dig deep enough?". Any *thing* we come up with is within infinity. One cannot step outside of Absolute Infinity and create a construct to explain infinity. It immediately becomes infinity. 

16 hours ago, 4201 said:

What if "the infinite" is just experiencing every memory you have, all at once? 

I think ideas of memories and experiences are very interesting in a certain context. However, your context and frame here crashes down.

How can Absolute Infinity be just. . . ? . . . Even rationally, this is super easy to see. . . Its the same as saying "What if Everything is just. . . ?". Do you see how there is separation here and anything you come up with is within Absolute Infinity? The whole frame collapses. . . . If you framed your construct like "What if there was a relative dimension of infinity in which an infinite number of memories was related to xyz. . . ". That is a very different relative construct. This would be one relative infinite dimension within and infinite number of infinite dimensions. 

At this point in the conversation, there is no point. There is no point continuing with a relative construct trying to capture Absolute. 

 

[Leo Gura]

@4201 This is the point in the conversation where a Zen master slaps you hard across the face.