Limitation necessarily creates pain?

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

@Serotoninluv I never said the killer was evil, I’m saying, why allow 2 beings with completely contradictory value systems exist within the same realm at all. I don’t care about my immersion in reality or my survival or perspective or ego or any of that shit, I’m talking about on a purely rational level. Put a and b into reality a likes to eat cake and b likes to watch people suffer as he smashes the cake in front of their face. Why allow them to live in the same plane of existence at all. 

Another way to look at it. Without contrast, there is nothing. If everything was joy, there is no longer joy. If everything was blue, there is no longer blue.

And you don’t get to set the rules on what counts as “rational”. That is a mind trying to control the narrative.

[Dylan Page]

@Serotoninluv I’m saying that it’s fundamentally bad. From any possible perspective. Given of course, that the creator cares about the well being of its creations. Suffering is inherently bad, it’s defined by how bad it is. If you feel good when suffering, you aren’t suffering. That scenario isn’t bad in my head, or in my construct, it’s fundamentally bad with the assumption that the creator cares about its creations. If it finds joy in watching people suffer, then fine, it’s doing the right thing in its eyes, but if that’s the case, then I hate it. 

[Dylan Page]

@Keyhole yeah I really have no idea. I just live my life and ask these questions and rarely get any sort of satisfactory answer. All I can do is keep trying, but if I don’t get there, I will not be surprised at all. If I had to guess, I think I’ll die with disappointment, because I don’t think I’ll ever get a reasonable answer. But who knows. Maybe I’ll get a pleasant surprise. 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Dylan Page said:

@Serotoninluv I’m saying that it’s fundamentally bad. From any possible perspective. Given of course, that the creator cares about the well being of its creations. Suffering is inherently bad, it’s defined by how bad it is. If you feel good when suffering, you aren’t suffering. That scenario isn’t bad in my head, or in my construct, it’s fundamentally bad with the assumption that the creator cares about its creations. If it finds joy in watching people suffer, then fine, it’s doing the right thing in its eyes, but if that’s the case, then I hate it. 

Here is the root of the dilemma. You believe in objective, universal morality. You will not find a satisfactory answer within that mindset. You would need to realize relativity.

[Dylan Page]

I understand relativity completely and could ace literally any test on it. @Serotoninluv 

Ill write it out like an equation. 
Assumption 1: god loves creation

assumption 2: god cares about the well-being of its creations. 
 

Scenario 1: 2 contradictory perspectives collide and both sides suffer. 
 

Scenario 2: they are put into different realities and allowed to be themselves without necessary suffering of another party

conclusion: scenario 2 is better. 

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

I understand relativity completely and could ace literally any test on it. @Serotoninluv 

You don’t recognize that your perspective is relative.

You don’t get to define which of my experiences qualify as suffering and what my suffering means.

[Dylan Page]

@Serotoninluv do you disagree with the string of logic 

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

@Serotoninluv do you disagree with the string of logic 

All logic is based on relativity. 

Notice how you created a god that only loves conditionally. How sad. 

Change your initial assumption to unconditional love and see what happens.

Unconditional love is a higher level than conditional love.

 

[Dylan Page]

@Serotoninluv well I guess I just don’t get it right now. I am of the opinion that a world full of suffering is worse than a world that lacks it, because suffering is defined by a bad feeling while love is defined by a good feeling, roughly speaking. I understand the concept of conditional and unconditional love, but I really just don’t see how for example, a 27 year old girl getting tortured and raped for 44 days and then murdered immediately after is even remotely acceptable in gods eyes. Imagine the pain. She was begging to die. This actually happened, you can google it. It makes literally 0 sense to me. Hopefully with time it will make sense, because it’s really, really important to me. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Dylan Page

[Forestluv]

@Dylan Page That situation is a really long putt. I’d start off with something within reach.

Who is someone that is on the edge of being worthy of your love? They are close, yet not quite deserving of your love. 

[Dylan Page]

I have a friend who I’ve known for a really long time who I respect on so many levels, and I love being with him, but he has a lying and manipulation problem. He will tell little lies in order to get his way, even if it means others will suffer. I would say it’s really hard for me to love someone who finds joy at the expense of others. Empathy is probably the most important trait I look for in another person. @Serotoninluv

[Forestluv]

@Dylan Page  That is a good example. For me, my father was in a grey area. He loved me in a way, yet he also caused me a lot of suffering. I had a lot of resentments against him.

You mentioned empathy is a really important trait. We don’t have control over other people’s empathy, yet we can increase our own.

For years, I carried resentments against my father. I tried therapy, books, forgiveness exercises, letting it go. Nothing worked. It was eating me alive and messing up my relationships. I was so afraid of my father I couldn’t approach him and tell him what he did to me. One day, I was sharing my problems with a friend and he suggested that I journal all the ways that I contributed to the bad relationship my father and all the resentment I had. I got so upset when he said this. I was just a kid, I had no part in it. How dare he suggest that I had a part in it. . . . Yet this stuck with me. I had written dozens of pages about what he had done to me, yet not a single sentence of my contribution. So I wrote. . . Then this guy had the audacity to suggest I go make amends to my father. He told me to only clean my side of the street and not to mention a single wrongdoing of my father. He said I had to do it in person. I thought this guy was out of his mind. No fucking way would I do this. I hadn’t spoken to my father for years and he lived 2,000 miles away. Like I’m going to fly from Denver to New Jersey to apologize to my dad. Yea right. . . . However, I was willing to call my parents for the first time in years, just to say “hi”. . . . My hands are shaking as I call. . . . My dad answers. . . A few minutes of small talk and then he says. . . . “I’m going on a business trip next week and I have a long layover in Denver”. . . . As the words come out of my mouth, I’m unable to pull them back in. “Would you like to meet?”. . . Then it was on and I knew what I had to do. I had a week to gather the courage to see him and make amends. . . . 

One of the things on my list of “my part” behavior. Was that I missed a lot of holidays, birthdays and anniversaries. I would forget my dad’s birthday or anniversary - I kinda didn’t care. I never felt quite right about that. So I went to a thrift shop and bought a stack of greeting cards. I filled out about a dozen cards. “Happy be-lated birthday Dad! Sorry I’m late”. “Happy Fathers Day Dad. I’m sorry I forgot”. . . Also, when I was 15 yrs old, I took my dad’s car to see a girl. I didn’t even have a drivers license. I totaled his car that night. I decided that I would pay for that car. I was waiting tables and broke, yet I didn’t care. I wanted to be free. . . When I saw him, I froze in fear. I was a little kid again unable to get away from him. Unable to make him stop. . . . I felt like I was going to throw up. . . I took a deep breath and said “I did some things when I was younger that I want to make amends for. It’s not the type of son or man I want to be”. . . I gave him a check for the first car payment and the stack of cards. I spoke about five minutes and I never felt so empowered in my life. This wasn’t about him, it was about me. I cleaned my side of the street and never mentioned a single thing I hated him for. He stood there stunned. I was done and ready to move on. It didn’t matter how he responded. Yet how he responded greatly increased my capacity for empathy and love. . . . I never really knew my father or wanted to - I wanted to get away from him. . . Then he starts opening up and talking from his heart. I didn’t even know he had a heart. . . . It turns out he grew up in a domestic violence home. His dad was alcoholic and abused him. His dad abandoned them when he was a teenager. His mom picked up the abuse. My dad was an only child and be home all alone hiding from his parents. As a survival strategy, my dad would dissociate by dreaming about having a family in a nice neighborhood and house. He dreamed of giving his son everything he never had. He would push his lawn mower through his rotten poor town miles into the next wealthy town - to the nicest neighborhood in that town and mow their lawns. And the whole day he would dream that he would raise a son in that neighborhood.  He worked his ass off for 20 years. He worked multiple jobs and flipped our homes. And then he bought the nicest home in the nicest neighborhood. The home I grew up in. . . He told me how he always wanted the best for me and did the best he could, yet he made a lot of mistakes he wish he could take back. . . . I never knew any of this. I had no idea who he was deep down. I was stunned. . . . There was silence and then he asked “what happens now?”. I said “I don’t know. Maybe we should hug?”. . . That moment transformed me. Hate was transformed to love. Empathy, connection and understanding arose. Resentment dissolved. It totally transformed the way I saw him and I never felt resentment toward him again. . . . It also opened a door to do this with other people I don’t like. My dad was an alcoholic and I couldn’t love alcoholics, so I volunteered with alcoholics, got to know them and fell in love with them. I couldn’t love criminals so I volunteered in a prison system, got to know them and love them - even a pedophile. I love both the criminal and victim. It’s all interconnected. It’s all a cycle. . . . For me, I couldn’t think my way through it. I had to get in there and work through it via experience. That’s what worked for me, others may different. 

[Dylan Page]

I can see loving them when getting to know them. I can see understanding their reasoning, and would probably end up liking them. However, I don’t see why they couldn’t like something else, something that doesn’t cause extreme suffering to someone as a price for their joy or convenience. Why would god create it that way? And that was a really good story by the way, thank you for the effort you are putting into this conversation. @Serotoninluv

[kamekat]

5 hours ago, Keyhole said:

It's something that you will have to experience on one of your own awakenings because it comes about in little bits and pieces for different people.  For instance, I can't really explain why I know this - other than having been in that state and being downloaded the information - anything that anyone says is just not going to do the awakening experience justice.  There is more to consciousness than what is in our dimension, so if an asteroid hits that will be just fine.  Consciousness will dream up something else.  It is found on a more individual, internal level.

Have you had an awakening yet?  If so what have you learned so far?

Ok, so let me try something else - see the paragraph that you wrote?  Well, the writing of it comes from a place that can't awaken to God as easily as another mindset can.

Thank you for making this post. 

[Nahm]

@Serotoninluv ♥️??

[zeroISinfinity]

Yeah cosmic adventures of love searching for LOVE/YOURSELF.

Why people like to stay donkey. YOURSELF don't bites it's filled with Love. 

There can't be suffering unite with YOURSELF and you will see it's just impossible for evil to exist at all. Doesn't matter what small love thinks. Because small love base it's existance on other small loves. Has to differentiate itself. But even in thinking judging criticizing small love is still good. There is no way to avoid God. I am so sorry. 

Small love with beleif in uncoditional love is still small love not Being YOURSELF. That thing is like huge.