Leo critique

[Farnaby]

5 hours ago, DivineSoda said:

@Farnaby His style is simply not for you. It doesn't 100% resonate with me either, but I take what resonates and leave the rest.

It's healthier to laugh away Leo's perceived arrogance and harsh style rather than take it so seriously and get offended. But you are entitled to your own unique perspective. If this is truly your intuition speaking, then trust it. Just don't think it's some absolute that applies to everyone else. 

Yes, that's exactly what I do too. I sometimes like blunt lessons that can trigger me, but I don't like arrogance. This time someone whas calling another person out and it resonated with what I'm perceiving lately too and I wanted to tell him that he's not deluded and probably right in his perception. 

Group thinking is one of the most dangerous things. It's important to call people out when they're acting incoherently with what they preach. A teacher can tell me anything about the ego, how I should let it die or transcend it and he may have really valuable teachings in that regard. But if I feel he often acts from a place of ego, as if he was somehow better than the rest of the people, he isn't an example of embodying what he's preaching. 

Just like a priest who goes on for hours talking about love, community, etc., and in his daily life doesn't act accordingly (this is something Leo says about traditional religion and I agree with him). Of course we're all human and sometimes act arrogantly, but it's important to own it and not make it about the other person's projections, etc.

3 hours ago, King Merk said:

Your judgments and “critiques” of Leo are reflections of how you judge and critique yourself my friend.

Rather than projecting onto Leo, look within and watch what you’re experiencing   

Lol how naive, you have a long way to go to stop putting him on a pedestal and think for yourself. 

See, how I just talked to you is how Leo talks to people who disagree with him. I'm sure you sensed some arrogance, defensiveness or whatever you want to call it in the way I answered you. And that's because you're right, I was being condescending and arrogant. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Farnaby

[Scholar]

Looking at Leo as an explorer/researcher I think is more healthy than looking at him as a Guru. He goes out, collects data and then presents it in his own way.

Teaching is it's own area of mastery, especially in terms of spiritual teaching. Leo has almost no true and reliable feedback loops for how effective his teaching actually is. He does not know the fail-rating vs the success-rating, therefore I do not see how he could even adjust his teachings in ways that would be more productive.

That would require a real focused, person to person, teaching style. Which is not what Leo is experienced in and also not what he seems to be interested in.

 

So why expect him to be a master of that area? He is a good explorer, collector/processor of data and also good at presenting that data.

 

Look at him as a fellow explorer, respect him for how much he has expored and all the experience he has in that area. When you seek advice from him, do it from the position of a fellow explorer, not a student vs master mentality.

 

The whole stick of Leo needing to be perfect or without flaw comes from your need for him to be your Guru. I don't agree with everything on Leo, and I don't really need to. I also don't want to become like Leo, I want to explore things myself and use him as a ressource.

The thing about Gurus is that you want to become like the Guru, so when there is something you don't like about the Guru, you will seek to change it.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Scholar

[Waken]

6 hours ago, King Merk said:

Your judgments and “critiques” of Leo are reflections of how you judge and critique yourself my friend.

Rather than projecting onto Leo, look within and watch what you’re experiencing   

Will you say this too when someone mistreats you? Will you look within and try to avoid projecting, or will you want to correct the mistreatment? Is a child that is undergoing abuse just needing to look within?

Sadhguru sometimes says something like 'when your life is going nice it's easy to say that it's all perfect, and someone else's problems are the divine plan. Until life hits you, and your philosophies fly out the window'

Edited February 2, 2020 by Waken

[Matt23]

I was honestly kinda scared to post this and read the comments...  Probably because I was scared of being axed from the forum or something...  It made me see how dependent I am on the forum, Leo, and the stuff he puts out...  I think I did it also mostly from my own place of low self-esteem and not trusting that I'd stand up for myself if push came to shove, since I think I need his teachings/forum --> thus I wouldn't defend my values/self if I felt/saw wrongdoing --> thus lowering further my self-esteem and increasing my dependency... something like that.

I think I'm scared to make my own decisions and have little trust in myself.

 

But anyway, I really appreciate all the comments (I haven't read them all).  From what I did read, a lot of reasonable, understanding, and compassionate replies.  Nothing scathing or anything.  Make me kinda trust others more and makes me feel more open to share my truth(s) and authenticity.

This situation reminds me of something that happened when I was playing basketball the other day...  A guy got a little intense and competitive and snapped at a girl.  He said something like "Head fucking up!".  I told him to take it easy on the language.  Afterwards he came up to me and, it seemed, wanted to smooth it over with me.  I've never really been in the position myself, so it was kinda new.  I noticed I had a choice; to express compassion towards him and say "it's ok" or judge him/ignore him.  I automatically did the latter, but noticed how I felt during when I did it and noticed how he seemed to react to it.  It seemed he felt worse about himself.  It made me see how showing love and forgiveness is a way more useful strategy than judgment and condemnation.  Next time, I would like to show compassion and understanding, yet also point out a potentially better way of doing things.

[Mafortu]

oh hey thats me

I am sure he initially thought I was belittling psychedelics which triggered his first response, but his combativeness is nothing compared to other teachers like Peter Ralston, I guess it comes with the job.

He could write all saint-like, but that would be boring and I am sure he is comfortable being a little more care-free with the language because we all probably share similar backgrounds and interests, so I dont take his trash-talk seriously

Now, does he need to be more responsible with his word choosing?  Sadly, yes. Im sure there are people here battling severe depression, some may feel like they are close to loosing it, and I would imagine having your favorite spiritual teacher call you a giant dumbass would be most unfortunate.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Mafortu

[Commodent]

These threads are always fun. On the one end you have people raising valid concerns about Leo and his teachings, and on the other end you have people trying to shut them down because they consider critiques a big no-no. Or rather, they consider critiques of Leo a big no-no. If this thread instead had been a critique of our unconscious society, or Donald Trump, then nobody would mind.

You guys are seriously attached to Leo and his teachings, and it's very obvious by the way you fiercely defend him and try to correct the perceived misbehavior of the critic. Somebody critiqued Leo, now who cares? Primarily those who are in denial about such viewpoints, it seems.

And by the way, "nobody is perfect" is probably the most lazy dismissal of any critique ever. I have said it before and I will say it again. We do not get any closer to perfection by sheltering ourselves and others from valid critiques.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Commodent

[Leo Gura]

[Inliytened1]

@Leo Gura lmao - is that a space kangaroo? ?

[King Merk]

8 hours ago, Waken said:

Will you say this too when someone mistreats you? Will you look within and try to avoid projecting, or will you want to correct the mistreatment? Is a child that is undergoing abuse just needing to look within?

Sadhguru sometimes says something like 'when your life is going nice it's easy to say that it's all perfect, and someone else's problems are the divine plan. Until life hits you, and your philosophies fly out the window'

You're not getting it. The notion of "mistreatments" is another judgment.

A child undergoing abuse will not benefit from judging or criticizing the abuser. The child should simply respond in the most appropriate manner.

When my muddy dog jumps onto me, I don't criticize him as evil or tell him he's arrogant. I simply push him away.

Expand this to any action. If my girlfriend cheats on me, I'm not going to call her a evil cheating bitch and criticize her. I'm simply going to break up with her and move on. 

Take notice and respond appropriately. The step of judging/criticizing isn't necessary. 

You're lost in your judgments friend. Take a step back to realize this. Drop them. Drop as many as you can. Stop moralizing everything you see. 

[King Merk]

10 hours ago, Farnaby said:

Lol how naive, you have a long way to go to stop putting him on a pedestal and think for yourself. 

See, how I just talked to you is how Leo talks to people who disagree with him. I'm sure you sensed some arrogance, defensiveness or whatever you want to call it in the way I answered you. And that's because you're right, I was being condescending and arrogant. 

I absolutely put Leo on a pedestal. That's something I'm quite aware of. He is a Buddha that I will one day slay. But for now, he's a resourceful "guru".

Is he human? Duh. Is there limitations to finite forms? Duh.

I didn't sense any of that because I didn't judge you or what you were saying. I simply witnessed it and responded appropriately. You're lost in your judgments friend. Take a step back to realize you're being led by a constructed sense of morality.

 

[King Merk]

4 hours ago, Commodent said:

These threads are always fun. On the one end you have people raising valid concerns about Leo and his teachings, and on the other end you have people trying to shut them down because they consider critiques a big no-no. Or rather, they consider critiques of Leo a big no-no. If this thread instead had been a critique of our unconscious society, or Donald Trump, then nobody would mind.

You guys are seriously attached to Leo and his teachings, and it's very obvious by the way you fiercely defend him and try to correct the perceived misbehavior of the critic. Somebody critiqued Leo, now who cares? Primarily those who are in denial about such viewpoints, it seems.

And by the way, "nobody is perfect" is probably the most lazy dismissal of any critique ever. I have said it before and I will say it again. We do not get any closer to perfection by sheltering ourselves and others from valid critiques.

Critiquing others (be it Leo, Donald Trump, Society, etc) is a mental circle jerk.

It's a distraction from self reflection.

Look within. 

[Billy Shears]

The question is, would you talk the same way if you met each other in public in real life?  I don't think so. It's easier to say things like that on the Internet. 

In the end Leo is running a business and enlightenment is the product he's selling. Of course he needs to portray himself as a convincing and truthful person in order to be successful. 

He is successful with it, so why should he change anything?

Ultimately, you shouldn't care about his behaviour, it's more important that you don't allow yourself to be influenced by it and go your own way.

[Commodent]

1 minute ago, King Merk said:

Critiquing others (be it Leo, Donald Trump, Society, etc) is a mental circle jerk.

It's a distraction from self reflection.

Look within. 

I do not agree with this notion that reflection cannot involve others as well as yourself, as you are not separate from the system in which you reside. All parts must be taken into consideration in order to gain a comprehensive understanding of the whole that you are.

Because do tell me, where does the line go between self-reflection and "other-reflection"? I'd say any such line is completely arbitrary. Observation is boundless.

Also, feedback can be of great value to the recipient, so "mental circle jerk" is a quite one-sided way to look at it. I do in fact wish people would be more open about what they think about me, as that could reveal some of my blindspots and give me a better understanding of what I need to work on. I really think we need to be more open about what we think about each other, not less. This is a self-development forum, after all.

[Treetalk]

It seems to me that people are using spiritual teachings to justify his tone and language. 

It’s interesting though - experiencing enlightenment doesn’t make you a better person than anyone else. It enhances your understanding of reality and that’s what his work is ultimately about. There’s a difference between gaining knowledge about existence and developing your inner self to be kind and compassionate to others, even when they bug you. 

It surprises me though that those two aspects of spirituality aren’t totally aligned for him - I would expect seeing the true nature of reality to increase one’s humility. I think he’s more concerned with awakening and sharing that journey with others. It’s quite confusing to be honest. Maybe he’s doing it to avoid a cult of personality. Maybe he wants people to dislike him so they don’t rely on him too much and instead work to find their own truth. I think some of it also comes from frustration that he can see things so clearly and others on this forum are so far behind and sometimes sound like they haven’t listened to anything he’s said. These aren’t good enough excuses though. 

[King Merk]

1 hour ago, Commodent said:

I do not agree with this notion that reflection cannot involve others as well as yourself, as you are not separate from the system in which you reside. All parts must be taken into consideration in order to gain a comprehensive understanding of the whole that you are.

Because do tell me, where does the line go between self-reflection and "other-reflection"? I'd say any such line is completely arbitrary. Observation is boundless.

Also, feedback can be of great value to the recipient, so "mental circle jerk" is a quite one-sided way to look at it. I do in fact wish people would be more open about what they think about me, as that could reveal some of my blindspots and give me a better understanding of what I need to work on. I really think we need to be more open about what we think about each other, not less. This is a self-development forum, after all.

I agree 100%. Thank you for reveling some of my blindspots  

Giving advice is always hard because you have to take into consideration where the individual you're speaking to is at. Overall, I tend to tell most people to "look-within" to swing the pendulum back towards the inner-reflection side of things. Because most individuals I observe are much too outwardly focused. But as you said, that inner vs outer differentiation is completely arbitrary and observation should ultimately come from a place of boundlessness anyways. 

One of the problems with feedback from other that I've noticed is its often more of a reflection of where they're at instead of where you are. But I suppose some feedback is going to be more biased than others. We would definitely all benefit from more transparency and openness. 

[Farnaby]

@King Merk Yes, you're right in saying that judgement is not a necessary step and that a good way to deal with life is to be practical about it.

I'm just not convinced by the people who tell other people that every time they judge something as abusive, arrogant, condescending, etc., they are actually projecting. Yes, on one hand they may be projecting, but on the other hand they are probably sensing a weird vibe. You just have to imagine these kind of conversations IRL. Would you tell someone who is asking you an existential question that they are too naive to understand life, that they are deluded and don't have the wisdom you have, etc.? Probably not, because it doesn't feel good when other people treat you that way. 

Making it all about the person who feels offended is every narcissists dream. They use that tactic each time in order to not take responsibility for their behavior. 

I remember Leo saying that one of the main problems in traditional religion is that they preach about love and self-love but then act very differently and I agree. I think a better approach is to work on your ego so you can notice when you're being arrogant, instead of making it about the other person being too "soft"  

@Commodent I agree. 

@Treetalk yes, that's how I see it too. Except I think it's precisely the thought "I'm way ahead than other people" that stems from the ego and leads to arrogance and that is present in every cult. That's actually the root problem with cults: people thinking the "guru" has some kind of attributes that they don't have and therefore they worship him and get triggered when someone calls the guru out (anyone else notices the similarity with what is happening in this thread?).

What does it mean to "be behind"? In the end, what matters to me is how a person integrates and embodies their wisdom. If they know a lot about the nature of reality but don't act accordingly, it's just theory, even if they have gained this wisdom through direct experience.  

Edited February 2, 2020 by Farnaby

[King Merk]

@Farnaby Of course, I would never bluntly tell someone IRL that they are too naive, deluded, dumb, etc. I think we all have enough compassion to avoid that type of toxic behavior. 

I do think you're mislead about the whole "judging isn't always projecting" notion. I'm not going to try and convince you of anything but in my own experience, every judgment I make on another is a projection of a judgment I've made on myself.

But the possibility for self-delusion is always there. I encourage you to meditate on this further. 

[Hansu]

On 1/31/2020 at 9:55 AM, Matt23 said:

I did notice that Leo still seems to use Amazon (from his recent awakening video), even though in a post a few pages back he showed a video about how Amazon mistreats their employees.  In the post he also advised people to consider how your own selfishness causes others harm...  Seemed pretty hypocritical to me. 

If you are the slaves working with Amazon and the men with the whip at the same time, why would you get concerned over you whipping yourself?

To me it seems like Leo is adjusting his teachings with the level of development he perceives on the one he is teaching. If I remember correctly, in his stage green video Leo explains that when green people go to developing countries and try to instill green ideas on the people living there, those teachings fail because the people are not yet ready to understand them.

Leo saying that Amazon treats its workers poorly while still ordering from Amazon doesn't have to mean that he is hypocrite, it could be that understanding Amazons evilness is just a required step towards a stage of development where you don't care whether Amazon is evil or not.

[Leo Gura]

As you engage in the grand circle jerk of judgment, at least once in a while remind yourself, "Evil doesn't exist. All judgment is delusion." 

 

[Farnaby]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

As you engage in the grand circle jerk of judgment, at least once in a while remind yourself, "Evil doesn't exist. All judgment is delusion." 

 

Come on, that's all you got? This is a clear example of lack of self-critique, only dismissing the POV of other people but not actually using any arguments to refute it, let alone taking any responsibility.

 

56 minutes ago, Hansu said: