Leo critique

[Matt23]

I don't know if this has been posted about yet but I did notice that Leo still seems to use Amazon (from his recent awakening video), even though in a post a few pages back he showed a video about how Amazon mistreats their employees.  In the post he also advised people to consider how your own selfishness causes others harm...  Seemed pretty hypocritical to me. 

I'm kinda starting to see more flaws in him lately, like how he talks to others on the forum (to me he seems unnecessarily harsh and combative at times and demeaning).  

Ex:

On 1/29/2020 at 6:33 PM, Mafortu said:

I firmly believe they are the only way to achieve truth. I simply find sober stories more fascinating to read about.

Leo said:

Good luck with your closedmindedness.

All your firm beliefs are bullshit.

 

 Mafortu said:

@Leo Gura I am close-minded for preaching your own words? I am not dissing psychedelics as I have done my fair share of them, including 5-Meo.

Sorry, but you have misinterpreted my whole thread here. Dont know why you are being so assuming and combative. 

 

Leo said:

You displayed a closedminded attitude about how spiritual paths work. And I pointed that out to you.

There are far more valid paths to Truth than your beliefs belief. That's all.

 

That whole bit about "good luck" and "bullshit" sounded, to me, to be a fairly aggressive response for what seemed like a pretty innocent statement by Mafortu.  Granted, his second statement didn't sound "attacking".  

I dunno, I'm kind of in a conundrum I guess... I'm not really sure how to proceed.  Basically, I've noticed Leo interacting with others in ways which I don't like, yet, I also am attached to and see much value in the forum and videos he puts up.  This seems like a big self-esteem issue for me. 

It's like "Dude!  C'mon!  Stop talking to people that way.  It seems like, by the way you talk to people, you're demeaning and attacking them for completely innocent comments and questions.  Like you're putting people down."

I feel frustrated and angry by how he talks to people.

I guess I'm concerned that, since Leo runs this website, provides tons of info and teachings, and seems to be advanced on the spiritual path, we/I will put up with interactions with Leo that aren't psychologically healthy (reduce self-esteem, "take it", etc.).

It might be something, or nothing, to consider.

[ryuzaki]

honestly I dont know how i'd felt if I was said that. from a 3rd person perspektiv I can accept it as a teaching style that just doesnt want to treat you with kid gloves.

in japanese tea ceremony there is an indirect style of critisism, which flies under the egos radar, which helped me a lot because direct critisism my ego would have defended

[Shadowraix]

Is he talking to people in that manner? Or are you just projecting your own interpretation of it into him? 

Your frustration with the way Leo talks to others is a problem with you. Also remember not all teachers will coddle you. They deliver it bluntly. It can be a way to give some shockback to the ego. Shows you how defensive you can be where there is no reason to be defensive. 

You're right about the Amazon thing. It's really hard to avoid shopping there with how big it is. I guess this is one of those "do as I say not as I do" things lol. 

I find people put Leo on a pedestal and get shocked when they realize he's not perfect. You never know when he might be full of shit or not. That's why you must verify everything. 

[Byun Sean]

I honestly agree to some extent. He's gotta watch himself integrating this powerful new awakening while handling a spiritual community. It's not easy.

 

The dude might be self-biasing himself into believing that since he's now fully awakened that he is now flawless and whatever he feels right to say is the absolute. He's gotta be extra careful and watch himself like a hawk

As for the amazon thing it doesn't really matter. Who the hell cares? Just focus on you. It's easy to point out all the criticisms in others. Not so easy seeing the hundreds in yourself...

[Moreira]

Leos way of answering  in a edgy way it has been since the beginning of times, dont take it too personal.

[TheAvatarState]

@Matt23 Leo has a different teaching style, which he has said comes from Vernon Howard, an American nonduality teacher of a couple generations ago. It's more of an old-school Zen master vibe that is very blunt. Leo doesn't beat around the bush, and will call "devilry" exactly what it is at face value.

Everyone has different styles of communication... not everyone is going to be a Matt Kahn (loving teddy bear energy). And that's OK!!! If every teacher was the same, it would be pretty boring, would it not? God must take many forms to reach as many people as possible, and some resonate better with a different teaching styles. In my personal experience, I appreciate teachers being (sometimes rudely) blunt with the purpose of wounding my ego, and getting me to see the truth. I understand that others may not like that as much. 

That being said, I will level with you though. I am also picking up on a "spiritual ego" distortion from Leo recently. From the way he talks about certain presidential candidates with authority, relative to the Spiral Dynamics model, is kind of worrying. Bernie Sanders is not the most developed, loving, and compassionate candidate in this race, yet he spouts it as fact. I agree that he seems overly dismissive of other truth seekers on the forum. He recently denounced books as a potential growth path for himself, thinking he has transcended them... indeed this is textbook Devilry to which he has specifically addressed in the past.

But what you have to realize is that it doesn't matter! Focusing on another man's problems is just a reflection of an imbalance within yourself. The Leo avatar is imperfect, for he is just like you and me. And God knows you and I have many problems that are deeper than his. Try to realize that your post is a distraction from doing the inner work on yourself. Be grateful to Leo for giving you so many amazing insights and teachings. And he is not done... far from it. You can still learn so much from him moving forward, despite certain imperfections. You can fully accept him for who he is. That is the best path forward.

@Leo Gura "Always walk through life as if you have something new to learn and you will." -Vernon Howard

Book recommendation: "The Law of One." Maybe it's time to delve into channeling, and see that we have information available from higher dimensional beings, not just human avatars. You will see that the metaphysics in that book lines up precisely to what you know to be true, and yet you have barely scratched the surface of all there is to learn. Take care, Leo.

Edited February 1, 2020 by TheAvatarState

[Flowerfaeiry]

I think its healthy to critique a teacher, and also it's important not to worry too much about him and his life. Leo has percieved flaws. This doesn't necessarily make his teachings less valid however. Listen with a discerning heart and discover the truth for yourself.

[Aquarius]

Cmon guys, he is just human. He didn't mean to insult the person. You are criticizing his way of talking and not the content of his speech. I think that's just his style.

[Farnaby]

@Matt23 I agree with you. This is the kind of thing that can become dangerous, especially for people with self-esteem issues who may think they deserve to be treated badly. 

While I agree that there are always lessons to be learned when we get triggered, defensive, etc., we have to be careful so we don't tolerate abusive behavior. No need to be abused in order to work on your empowerment. This mindset is every narcissists dream, where the issue is always on your side and they never take responsibility. 

If someone is telling me they're suffering because of an abusive relationship, it may be true that they are tolerating to be treated that way, but at that stage that person needs empathy and help to put up boundaries, not harsh communication that makes them feel 100% responsible for what's happening. 

I really like Leo's videos, but IMO he clearly lacks empathy.

[SgtPepper]

Communication is a two way street.

Whenever I communicate with Leo. I ask questions and it does not invoke combativeness .

[Shadowraix]

@Farnaby Does he lack empathy? Or is he expressing it in a way you don't recognize? 

Not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. Have you ever been bluntly honest with someone out of love to see them be better? 

Yes his teaching style could have an adverse effect on those sensitive. But what should Leo do about that? Add a huge disclaimer at the beginning of everything he posts? 

At least in this case you're free to walk away and find better teachers for you with no repercussions unlike an abusive relationship where they fear for their life. 

[wagnereater]

Nope, too advanced for this crab bucket forum.

[Roy]

There is a lesson to be gleamed from this................ can you guess what it is?!?!?

Leo is.................... human!

He is not some ultimate enlightened god. Stop treating him like a deity that doesn't have flaws or can't make mistakes (look at how short tempered he got with that amazon guy in his recent video , not exactly sage like eh?). If anybody is idolizing him then they haven't really learned anything from him. It's quite easy to separate the fans from the actual students just by reading comments on his videos or here.

Let's be real he is a very cool, helpful, and intelligent guy, I've improved my life immensely from his work, but he is not a messiah and he is not the only person out there in this world of 7 billion people that you can learn from. He should be one many in a SEA of teachers.

Don't take him or anybody too seriously.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

This is just a general question, zooming out from Leo: 

What is more authentic, a person who puts on a pretense of lovey-dovey niceness all the time or a person who responds in ways people perceive as edgy or rude to voice their truth?

Would you rather have the insincere front or the "real thing"? There is no way a person who tries to sugarcoat everything so to speak, all the time is being authentic. Look inside, sometimes that bubbly love attitude is authentic but at times when there is an absence of that and a passion comes up to speak your truth in a way that some people might consider offensive, is that inauthentic or is that just "socially unacceptable"? On the flipside, being a dick all the time is not authentic either, its likely a wall of defense and insecurity. Theres definitely a fine line to balance on. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by TrynaBeTurquoise

[Ero]

@Matt23 Honestly, don't spend your time like this. I'm not saying you are wrong per say, just realise it has no significance in the bigger picture. One's orientation towards events like these is very illustrative of the entire conscious orientation. From your post I see you are operating from the personal paradigm. Nothing wrong about that, but there are so many more beautiful states and paradigms.

[Natasha]

@Matt23 When you transcend the ego, what somebody does or says won't bother you any longer. Remember suffering is resisting what is and ego is master at resisting. All this stuff apparently exists because you give it that meaning.

[The Awakened Viking]

It's just his teaching style+passion for Truth.

And anyway, he's just 1 of 100 different spiritual teachers you should lean on.

If he truly is turning mad, it will be an interesting perspective to observe as he's a master INTP, researcher and philosopher, and you will still have 99 spiritual teachers left to walk with you on your path.

At the end of the day, the real work happens within you and all this guidance and lectures are nothing but vague signposts.

Your own direct experience is the highest authority and should be nourished by thousands of different perspectives, not just Actualized.org

Edited February 2, 2020 by The Awakened Viking

[Farnaby]

3 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

@Farnaby Does he lack empathy? Or is he expressing it in a way you don't recognize? 

Not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. Have you ever been bluntly honest with someone out of love to see them be better? 

Yes his teaching style could have an adverse effect on those sensitive. But what should Leo do about that? Add a huge disclaimer at the beginning of everything he posts? 

At least in this case you're free to walk away and find better teachers for you with no repercussions unlike an abusive relationship where they fear for their life. 

I get what you say, but name calling, treating people like you're on a pedestal and they are below you is definitely ego at its best.

Empathy requires sensitivity to the other person's needs, not only your agenda to help them become a better person. That's something I find is not often present in Leo's replies. I know I'm free to go, but I find value in his teachings and the exchanges on the forum. That doesn't mean I won't call people out when I think they are being abusive, which is what the OP was also sensing. 

You can make everything about the other person and justify arrogance, verbal abuse, etc., by saying that if someone gets triggered because of how you treated them it's their fault. That's textbook manipulation/gaslighting. There are moments where your intuition is right about these things and not only a projection of you.  

Edited February 1, 2020 by Farnaby

[DivineSoda]

@Farnaby His style is simply not for you. It doesn't 100% resonate with me either, but I take what resonates and leave the rest.

It's healthier to laugh away Leo's perceived arrogance and harsh style rather than take it so seriously and get offended. But you are entitled to your own unique perspective. If this is truly your intuition speaking, then trust it. Just don't think it's some absolute that applies to everyone else. 

[King Merk]

Your judgments and “critiques” of Leo are reflections of how you judge and critique yourself my friend.

Rather than projecting onto Leo, look within and watch what you’re experiencing