Leo Gura PUA

[Emerald]

13 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

Exactly, I'm burned out and if you can burn out that means it's not healthy or high conscious.

Burn out is a good sign for you personally to either step back and take a breather or dig deeper and find the wound it aggravates. The former is good for immediate recooperation, and the latter helps to develop a deeper understanding and higher degrees of equanimity in the face of these pervasive issues.

When you become aware of the wound, it has less of an effect on you. You see it for what it is and not what you fear it is. And then, you can help people. This is why the internet's darknesses is so helpful for collective Shadow integration and social evolution.

When you face with darkness, the high consciousness thing to do is to shine light on it. The Shadow can't remain in the light.

But it can be draining and frustrating sometimes to be on the receiving end of the Shadow. So, breaks are necessary. 

That said, to cut out the sexuality section, just allows the collective shadow to hide and languish in the dark unconscious. It's best to have things rise to the surface as opposed to suppressing them.

 

[Ananta]

@Emerald I see you try to do a lot of psychoanalysis on ppl on the forum, even when it's not wanted.

Anyways, I'm 49, probably twice your age, so I know my wounds and I've worked through them, thanks, but that doesn't mean I want to see men act in ways that they will continually manipulate, wound and "use" other young woman. Yes, I have an issue with that! 

Also, I don't appreciate men on a spirituality forum using sexist, stereotypical, objectifying language towards women and what sub-forum do they use this talk? ..."The relationship/dating sub-forum"!!!

So, you can think how great it is for ppl to work out their dysfunctional shadows here on this sub-forum, but I see a bunch of men back slapping and carrying on about how it's a "numbers game", about getting in womens pants and other revolting talk.

They can go to reddit and have their shadows rise to the surface.

 

[DrewNows]

@Anna1 hey there ?

You are appreciated/respected for nothing other than being you. You don’t have to play authority, whether you’re a mod or not, and it’s okay to be afraid of all the inevitable evil that shows up here; please always be open to play student and teacher.
The True Self seeks your power, give it up, let love in and continue the expansion ?

[Ananta]

@DrewNows I'm actually pretty passionate about what I said above, as Anna, not a mod, but as a mod I also give warnings for certain infractions too and it gets exhausting trying to control certain offenders. One is on actualized.org "vacation" as we speak. 

But, thanks.

[Emerald]

45 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

@Emerald I see you try to do a lot of psychoanalysis on ppl on the forum, even when it's not wanted.

Anyways, I'm 49, probably twice your age, so I know my wounds and I've worked through them, thanks, but that doesn't mean I want to see men act in ways that they will continually manipulate, wound and "use" other young woman. Yes, I have an issue with that! 

Also, I don't appreciate men on a spirituality forum using sexist, stereotypical, objectifying language towards women and what sub-forum do they use this talk? ..."The relationship/dating sub-forum"!!!

So, you can think how great it is for ppl to work out their dysfunctional shadows here on this sub-forum, but I see a bunch of men back slapping and carrying on about how it's a "numbers game", about getting in womens pants and other revolting talk.

They can go to reddit and have their shadows rise to the surface.

 

I'm not saying don't moderate them. What I'm saying is that if you block something out as fundamental as human sexuality, you end up with a contents under pressure situation... that ends up getting in the way of consciousness work and self-actualization. And that's why I disagree that the dating/relationship sub-forum should be deleted. That's all I'm saying.

But I understand your feelings, as I feel the same way about sexism. It really doesn't feel good and it salts collective and individual wounds. There's a lot of pain and anger and fear there. And the wounds are deep and ancient and infected. And they effect both men and women, but it's only women who tend to realize it and feel it strongly. And this gives us a unique advantage in helping men and women with this issue.

And this is a space where you can bring things to light that can help people that would otherwise be stuck in a bad position. It's a space where you can push back and influence people (men and women) to see what's actually going on.

And of course there are many people that don't like to look at this. But I'm not just sharing for their sake. Talking to brick walls is not helpful for the brick wall... and I certainly don't do it for me because it's not fun. But some of the onlookers on this public forum will be deeply influenced. Because I share in this way, so many people are not aware of these things. And I've had quite a few men and women who seek out my services to help them integrate their feminine side. 

Also, your age is not so relevant to me. And I find it strange that my disagreement with you is being met with the level of resistance that it is on this topic. So, if your assessment is that you have healed your wounds because you're twice my age, then I have to push back on that notion. These are ancient wounds and collective wounds as much as they are individual. And it takes a lot of equanimity to be receptive enough to get deep into the wound enough to start healing it. You have to understand it at such a deep level that you can find compassion even for those men that are spitting vitriol toward women and trying to diminish us. And the compassion grows out of understanding why the wound is effecting them that way. It's really about systems thinking.

And because it's a collective wound, you won't be able to fully heal until it's healed in the collective for men and women... which probably won't happen completely any time in my lifetime. But it's about the journey and making things better and better. And if you only focus on the substance of what the 'too far gones' say, you won't see how helpful this kind of awareness is for people. 

So, the existence of the Dating/Relationship forum tends to produce some low quality content. But it's also the space where the most transformation can happen. Issues always play out on the sexual stage eventually. Repression (in the mind or internet) is not healthy.

 

 

 

[PenguinPablo]

A rock is only heavy if you try to lift it  

[Derek White]

4 hours ago, Anna1 said:

@Emerald I see you try to do a lot of psychoanalysis on ppl on the forum, even when it's not wanted.

@Anna1, @Emerald is not the only psychoanalyst here. One user has previously diagnosed another as having a mental illness and another as having the Dunning Kruger effect. They have also somehow read people’s “vibes” or “energies”. They never responded to the original points though, which shifted the conversation and some good points were lost ☹️

Users should attack people’s points not their personalities. There should be consequences for mean spirited sarky comments and those who attack people’s character. People should try to be as neutral, objective, and logical in their responses as possible (like a professional email).

If someone is wrong tell them why they are wrong by proving counter arguments. Calling them “sexist”,  “arrogant”, telling them how you feel or leaving a sarcastic comment just makes them more defensive.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Derek White

[Derek White]

@Anna1 Sorry to post again, but while I hear your complaints against men, I have come across similar stereotyping from women. One literally read, “Men are always shallow, they go for looks.”

As a man who doesn’t date women for sex, IMO men can have purely sex based relationships ethically and without breaking women’s hearts. I don’t think learning to present yourself well (which I think is PUA) so that women like you is any more manipulative than wearing makeup or good clothes. Hope these opinions are not too controversial.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Derek White

[Emerald]

32 minutes ago, Derek White said:

@Anna1, @Emerald is not the only psychoanalyst here. One user has previously diagnosed another as having a mental illness and another as having the Dunning Kruger effect. They have also somehow read people’s “vibes” or “energies”. They never responded to the original points though, which shifted the conversation and some good points were lost ☹️

Users should attack people’s points not their personalities. There should be consequences for mean spirited sarky comments and those who attack people’s character. People should try to be as neutral, objective, and logical in their responses as possible (like a professional email).

If someone is wrong tell them why they are wrong by proving counter arguments. Calling them “sexist”,  “arrogant”, telling them how you feel or leaving a sarcastic comment just makes them more defensive.

I'm not sure if you're referring directly to me or not. But I am definitely not making mean or snarky comments, nor have I ever attacked anyone's personality in my posts or critiques. And I don't diagnose anyone as I am not a psychoanalyst.

I simply share what I perceive and what I've learned in regard to the topics at hand whether they relate to sexuality, consciousness work, or any other topic, just like everyone else on this forum.

Now, Anna is correct in that there is objectively a lot of sexism that goes on here on this section of the forum. And it is very uncomfortable to be a female in this section because lots of stuff men say here does feel like lemon juice in wounds. And the uncomfortable feelings that get triggered are very natural. So, if a woman reacts defensively outwardly, you must understand that it's a very strong instinctual emotional reaction that is based in a real collective wound. 

But calling something sexist is not a "mean" thing to say. That's just an accurate label to describe the phenomenon. And though I practice remaining respectful and understanding in all my interactions, I don't sugarcoat things or handle people with kid gloves. It's very important to call a spade a spade, even if some people have a bias that prevents them from perceiving it or they get offended by it.

But I don't do it to be mean or to belittle anyone, even if that's how they are likely to perceive it. And I don't even behave in a mean way to those who are outright antagonistic to me... which happens often because of the perspectives I share and how threatening they are to many people's status quo. But in order to understand and be of help to anyone, you must be able to hold space for people even if they are incapable of affording you the same courtesy.

So, when I call a spade a spade, I do it to be accurate and to illuminate new perspectives to people to help them get un-mired from traps that I've grappled with myself. There's no value in mincing words just because it offends some people or challenges the status quo. Sexism is real and it is common and it is here. And it's unwise to keep one's eyes closed to it.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Just want to remind everyone to be aware of how self-bias distorts all of your logic, arguments, and justifications.

Just notice this meta point before you get losts in endless selfish debate.

Notice the function of debate: survival of the self.

[Derek White]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

So, if a woman reacts defensively outwardly, you must understand that it's a very strong instinctual emotional reaction that is based in a real collective wound. 

@EmeraldYou can say the same for men. Why do you tolerate sexism from women and not men? 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

But calling something sexist is not a "mean" thing to say.

It is the meanest thing you can say to a man as a woman, other than falsely accusing him of a crime. Calling them sexists makes them defend their position more, I would say you can almost guarantee he will never change his position, now that you have said he’s a sexist. If you want to change their minds try to give counter arguments.

I think there are two groups here, one believe relationships are selfless and without manipulation, and the other believes manipulation and selfishness from both sides are necessary parts of relationships. Emotion vs. Logic. The truth is somewhere is the middle here but we need to understand the perspectives on both sides and criticize them. This will involve a negative reaction from both of them. I personally lean a bit to the logic side, but hey that’s just me. 

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Derek White said:

@EmeraldYou can say the same for men. Why do you tolerate sexism from women and not men? 

It is the meanest thing you can say to a man as a woman, other than falsely accusing him of a crime. Calling them sexists makes them defend their position more, I would say you can almost guarantee he will never change his position, now that you have said he’s a sexist. If you want to change their minds try to give counter arguments.

I think there are two groups here, one believe relationships are selfless and without manipulation, and the other believes manipulation and selfishness from both sides are necessary parts of relationships. Emotion vs. Logic. The truth is somewhere is the middle here but we need to understand the perspectives on both sides and criticize them. This will involve a negative reaction from both of them. I personally lean a bit to the logic side, but hey that’s just me. 

You're really straw-manning me here. I don't think you've ever read my posts on this forum before, because it's so off the mark. You're projecting that I'm okay with misandry... which is simply not true.

Number one, if I see a woman who's off base, I'm just as willing to push back on her perspective. And it's not as though you can find ANY posts of me beating up on men. But I do call out distortions in perspective when I see it. And whenever I see self-biases that I know are not based in truth, I try to educate.

Also, I don't go around calling people sexist. But I'm not going to pretend that certain sexist behaviors are not sexist just because it offends people to call a spade a spade. So, it isn't mean. It's factual.Also, I'm very unlikely to use the word 'sexist' in the first place to refer to these distortions and biases, unless it's relevant and helpful for the person to see past their delusions. Often times, it just requires an explanation.

So, if you think I just go around "calling people out" or shaming people or something, then you are not reading my posts. 

And those that are fragile to gender/sexuality issues and really dug in on their distortions will never hear it. But since it's a public forum, that person doesn't really need to be the one that hears it. Many others will.

Also, your last paragraph is partially true. Very few people on this thread are seeing past their own self-biases.

But given that men's self-biases are far more prevalent here and that women's self-biases are being looked at as a false perspective by many of the men who believe that they know better, it is incumbent upon me to share the ins and outs of the female perspective at a deeper level.

So, while women's self-biases are just as much biased as men's are and are thus untrue... it is true that those are our biases. And most men here have an incredibly distorted idea of women's biases based in lots of false notions about women's sexuality and perspective. 

Too many men think they read a few pick up books and watch some RSD and suddenly they "know female psychology". And of course that's not true, and even believing so is a defense mechanism because they feel powerless and want to feel more control. Whether men realize it or not, they really do want the love of a woman... especially the inner woman. So, these sources can tell you what generally works if you want to get laid... but they don't tell you why it works in a way that's accurate. And this misrepresentation of women's sexuality, self-biases, and perspectives is a burden to men as well.

So, just because other people on here are sharing from their self-biases, doesn't mean I'm doing that in the same light as they are. My goal is always to bring new perspectives to the light of consciousness. 

I understand that men work differently and have different agendas than me... usually. Women tend to naturally orient to men through the heart. Men tend not to orient to women through their heart until they've gone through years of maturing first. When this happens, the agenda is similar. But before a certain age the male agenda and female agenda is apples and oranges. 

Young men are in a developmental phase where it's about meeting women and gaining experience. The problem comes when these men have a few one-night stands because they watched some videos on pick up and attended a couple seminars and think they have women figured out and they tell themselves all kind of distorted stories that are simply not true and are a misrepresentation of women's sexuality. 

And if those young men continue to cling onto these distorted ideas of female sexuality, they will never be able to grow into a mature man with an integrated feminine side who can actually have a functional relationship from the heart. He will run around in circles chasing the things he "knows" and never step a foot out of that safe ideology.

So, I offer my perspective and biases as a woman, to push back on their misconceptions about women. And not just for women... for men too.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Emerald

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Johnny5 said:

There are no "wounds", there's just luggage.

Healing is not about mending ego but about shedding it.

Everything else, including pop jungian scholarship, is just ego trying to survive.

Structure vs content. Or rather, pattern vs content.

Content is not relevant, pattern is all.

On the absolute this is true. On the relative, we do have a lot of individual and collective wounds.

So, unless someone abides in the absolute, this perspective you're sharing will just cover over important things that need to be addressed.

Imagine making this argument on the physical level. 

You go into a hospital room where someone's just been shot ten times. And You say, "Hey great new! There are no "wounds, there's just luggage."

What you must understand is that, just like a gunshot wound, trauma wounds are still there in the absolute. It's just that your relationship to them changes.

But let's be real here, most people will never taste the absolute. So, your perspective just shrouds more things in invalidation. It makes people less conscious, not more conscious, to ignore an aspect of reality just for the sake of some abstract truth that you don't even live in yourself.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Emerald

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

Has nothing to do with absolute vs. relative. The point is that you can't "address" anything as long as you think of them as wounds. Because that's not what they are.

You can't have a remedy when you don't understand the malady. And let's be real here, you don't.

You can't show me any wounds, you can only talk about it AS THOUGH that's what they are. And you can have your elaborate theories about it and slap everyone else around the ears with them, thinking that it makes anyone more conscious. But it would be a VERY big mistake to take any of that literally.

Four years on this forum, spinning your wheels, and where did it get you. Let's be real here.

Actually, I've gotten quite a lot out of interacting on this forum friendship-wise, business-wise, and influence-wise.

Also, if you feel that you have a better way of addressing the current situation (in which wounds do exist... though you could say that they are more like growing pains on the macro level), then feel free to share your perspective. And if you can point to specific areas where my perspective is false, go ahead and share it. I'm an open book. I look forward to having a more complete perspective on the matter since I'm always diving deep to discover more about these collective phenomena.

That said, I am sharing from things that I've observed. So, you won't be able to convince me that what I experience is not what I experience.

But I have found that many people have benefitted from my perspective and garnered a deeper understanding of the world and themselves, and that it's given them a framework for understanding their own pain and discomfort at deeper and more actionable levels.

 

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

It's not about your experience as such, it's about your interpretations and narratives and symbolism. That's where you live. And that's where you mislead people.

I can't point to specific areas where they are false, all of it is nonsense.

I can't discuss your perspective on ego, because you have no perspective on it whatsoever.

And I can't share mine because it's not transferable when there is zero common ground.

I have no advice for you except perhaps to go back to the drawing board. But there's not much for you to do there until you are properly motivated to actually get yourself out of this rut. Which you wouldn't be, because you're comfortable enough in it. You're fine not going anywhere. You measure the benefit of this forum for you in terms of networking. Outward vs inward. There's no need for you to go back to the drawing board until you actually want to move.

But that won't stop me from pointing things out. If it's not for you, maybe it's for whoever else might be reading. I sincerely hope for their sake that all your convincing talk won't get them stuck in the same rut.

The main questions to ask is if you want to teach is, how is this perspective actionable for people? And if it isn't actionable, there is no point in sharing it in the first place. It just confuses people more. This is why I don't teach from the absolute perspective or any perspective that is likely to cause more confusion than clarity... aka "Cast not pearls..."

You need to use words, interpretations, symbols, and narrative to effectively communicate to people. Now, all of these things are misleading in the sense that they don't reflect absolute truth (no perspective truly can) because they are based in relative truths. But relative truths are not invalid and do lead to a lot more clarity. They are true from their own perspective... just like the length of the day and year on different planets or the false but practical notion that dichotomies like up/down and big/small exist.

So, if we are aware of the non-duality (not two) that means there is no true distinction between absolute and relative truth. Therefore, to invalidate relative truth is to create a split and a distinction within reality as to which perspectives are valid and which are not. But the real truth is that all perspectives is what infinity refers to.

Here is a video on not invalidating relative truths, so that you understand how to teach to people where they are and are able to actually understand things from different perspective instead of invalidating all perspectives...

Also, I do have many perspectives on Ego. Here is a couple though these are not the only valid perspective, of course. I have another video on the topic as well and may cover the topic from other perspectives in the future...

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Emerald

[Emerald]

34 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

I've seen your channel. And I've seen your four years on this forum.

Anyway... Enjoy teaching. It's kinda cute. (don't worry I'm not PUA)

I do enjoy teaching. That's why I do it.

And your attempts to dissuade me are equally adorable. And I am a PUA... so you better watch out little lady.

 

 

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Johnny5 said:

Make my knees buckle

(p.s. not wishing to dissuade you nor belittle you, just seems fair to throw out some observations and warnings, land where they may)

Listen, if you really want to share with me something that I don't already seem to be aware of, you should be more specific. I am receptive to learning new things and getting myself out of the way.

Mind you, when I share from a particular relative perspective, it doesn't mean that that's the only perspective that I'm aware of. I pick whichever perspective has the most efficacy in a given situation. It's important to meet people where they are. And on this particular part of the forum, this perspective is the most clarifying and actionable for cutting through misconceptions and mindsets that cover over a deeper and richer experience of their own natural energies and ability to connect. And this comes directly from my experience of myself and what I've heard from others that my perspective has opened them more to. 

So, if you think I'm stuck on this particular thing, then I have to disagree. This is just one perspective among many perspectives to explore. And I see this as quite akin to a framework like Spiral Dynamics. It explains a lot of things through framework, but the map isn't the territory. Maps can be useful though, unless you're already at the place where 'x' marks the spot. It's only at the 'x' that all maps lose their efficacy.

But it's like a teacher who is teaching 9th grade algebra. They aren't 'stuck' on 9th grade algebra themselves. They are TEACHING 9th grade algebra. But they are there to help their students understand 9th grade algebra, which requires them to speak about it a lot. The same is true for me here.

This is a perspective that I've explored a lot into. So, I want to give people the 'next right thing' that they need to individuate and grow. So, I talk a lot about the same things because the collective is at the stage where I was when I began my journey a decade ago. And I want to help as many people as I can to understand these issues at a deeper level.

 

[Derek White]

@Emerald The comment you made suggested you were okay with females being sexist because of their collective wound. That’s why I asked you to clarify.

Anyway, i think you are missing a major component of the male perspective in your world view. I, and some others, have tried to share it but have received mostly nasty and hateful responses, even though what I am saying is very similar to what Leo is saying, if not exactly the same. There is no point in sharing it now because it falls on deaf ears and I get shooed away. What is even weirder is that there are men who have said worse here, but they don’t get as much hate as I do.

As you probably know, men have collective wounds too. I think if women made an attempt to understand what these men are saying, we would see a decrease in the Incel and MGTOW movements. As you probably know, these movements are growing worldwide along side with the extreme right wing and that partially has to do with people hating them and not understanding them. Just like any movement, they have a kernel of truth too.

I also think your generalization of younger men is off the mark. So let me tell you my distorted and biased male perspective.

This may sound harsh but I think younger women don’t have any desire to understand men. There is no reciprocity. They just want men to understand THEM. They don’t want to change, they want a man to approach them who is the right fit. I don’t think women make any effort to actually fit into what men want, no that would be sexist. Women don’t even know what they want, they always give vague answers like love, connection, loyalty, etc. and men who listen to that are unsuccessful. Men can actually see that there are certain personality and physical traits women want but they will never be upfront about it. Men are constantly trying to seek advice and change themselves, I actually do not see women doing that, here or anywhere.

I don’t think they even hold the male perspective on the same level as the female perspective. Male perspective is somehow lower In their mind

So ya. I think I’m gonna stop now since there is no point in arguing. I think I’m going to stop visiting and commenting on this sub.?

 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Derek White said:

@Emerald The comment you made suggested you were okay with females being sexist because of their collective wound. That’s why I asked you to clarify.

Anyway, i think you are missing a major component of the male perspective in your world view. I, and some others, have tried to share it but have received mostly nasty and hateful responses, even though what I am saying is very similar to what Leo is saying, if not exactly the same. There is no point in sharing it now because it falls on deaf ears and I get shooed away. What is even weirder is that there are men who have said worse here, but they don’t get as much hate as I do.

As you probably know, men have collective wounds too. I think if women made an attempt to understand what these men are saying, we would see a decrease in the Incel and MGTOW movements. As you probably know, these movements are growing worldwide along side with the extreme right wing and that partially has to do with people hating them and not understanding them. Just like any movement, they have a kernel of truth too.

I also think your generalization of younger men is off the mark. So let me tell you my distorted and biased male perspective.

This may sound harsh but I think younger women don’t have any desire to understand men. There is no reciprocity. They just want men to understand THEM. They don’t want to change, they want a man to approach them who is the right fit. I don’t think women make any effort to actually fit into what men want, no that would be sexist. Women don’t even know what they want, they always give vague answers like love, connection, loyalty, etc. and men who listen to that are unsuccessful. Men can actually see that there are certain personality and physical traits women want but they will never be upfront about it. Men are constantly trying to seek advice and change themselves, I actually do not see women doing that, here or anywhere.

I don’t think they even hold the male perspective on the same level as the female perspective. Male perspective is somehow lower In their mind

So ya. I think I’m gonna stop now since there is no point in arguing. I think I’m going to stop visiting and commenting on this sub.?

 

Actually, I speak directly to what causes Incel and MGTOW to crop up... which is the disintegration of the Feminine in men. It's Anima possession on the collective level.

So, I am very intimately aware of men's struggles with this because they are dealing with another form of the collective wound... because it's the same collective wound that women are dealing with.

It's the mother wound, of the repressed feminine. So, when I speak about the Feminine I do so for the sake of men who are in the throws of dealing with Anima possession which could also be why you think that women hold the male perspective lower in their minds.

You project a lot onto me, and think I'm being misandristic. But that comes from Anima issues, and disintegration and underdevelopment of the Feminine side of yourself. If you connect to that part, women won't seem as threatening and you're less likely to perceive that which is not misandristic as misandristic.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Emerald

[Arcangelo]

Sigh. SMH Wow just Wow!

Girls you just don't get it. And probably you will never get it because you are girls, it's a boy thing. Sure someone can make videos and write books to try to explain it to you but you will never get it unless you are born a man.

Before the thread gets locked I want to ask:

 

Why is it so immensely difficult for you girls to understand that a guy doing PU is just a guy trying to get a girlfriend?

 

Why ? Someone, please, Why?

 

Any man that has ever lived is a PUA, some have better results than others that's the only difference. But we are all PUA.

You guys make it more complex than what it really is. The make up analogy is spot on.

Why you girls want to manipulate me by looking gooooood? Why you can't just be yourself and go out w/o make up? Because you will not get the same results. We are humans we want to be efficient and maximize profit.

There you go.

 

Arc