Closing in Game

[Elisabeth]

43 minutes ago, d0ornokey said:

to play devils advocate leo didnt mention leading any girls on, it seems hes talking about one night stands at a club 

Quote

Closing involves a lot of factors and is an art in itself. This is perhaps the most advanced aspect of game on which hinge most of your results.

Basically closing requires being really experienced at these things:

• Screening her to make sure she's possible to isolate
• Being really good at planning logistics on the fly. Being really good at improvising new plans
• Leading -- getting her used to following you around
• Bouncing between various locations
• A convenient place to isolate her to (could be her place, or even a rented motel room, or even behind the elevator)
• Dealing with last minute resistance, shit-tests, and endless excuses
• Dealing with her annoying friends who will try to cockblock you every chance they get
• Seduction -- physically and emotionally turning her on.

How do you learn all the above? Lots of trial and error, watching other experienced guys do it, and by studying some basic theory.

Expect a lot of failure and near misses.

One of the dirty secrets of PUA is that even the best guys only close like 50% of the women they manage to bring home. In the end, you can't force her. And many times she will be too reluctant. But even to reach this point already takes serious skill. Just learning how to isolate her is tricky. There will be so many excuses and logistical obstacles. Endless excuses.

Even once you get her panties off, it's still not a lock. You can lose her at any point. You can even lose her while you're inside her! It's a circus.

Nothing will increase you lay count more than having a convenient place very near to where you met her. This is HUGE! It's so important it's worth paying an extra $1000/mo for it. Living within walking distance of the club/bar is priceless in game. If you have to drive 40 mins to your Mom's house, forget about it.

The language just makes me sick. Why not

"make sure she's possible to isolate" => find out if she's also looking for a hook-up today

"getting her used to following you around" => show her who you are and build intimacy

"she'll be too reluctant" => she doesn't feel like it despite all the effort you both put into this

Ah. Because there are underlying assumptions. 

It has been addressed at length. I haven't read all of the long discussion, but I've seen the beginning. Thank you @see_on_see for speaking up. 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Elisabeth

[Derek White]

Upon further thinking I guess you are right. Dating women for sex is like dating men for money.

[Meetjoeblack]

On 21/01/2020 at 3:10 PM, ravlondon said:

Hi, 

Long story short,.

Ashwell as whether I should aim for monogamy after or to keep chasing tail. 

6 hours ago, Anna1 said:

To the men that treat women like ladies with respect and dignity, not objectification and manipulation, thank you.?❤

Peace 

 

We're a classy bunch. 

Op, compliance is the solution. I take more of a blow me or blow me out approach. Like poker and calling all in! Focus more on volume. 

Do what I do. Just tell her about the After and that she's coming! 

1 hour ago, Derek White said:

Upon further thinking I guess you are right. Dating women for sex is like dating men for money.

Lmfao. There's a evolutionary component. A family requires resources. In 2020, with tinder and apps, sites like seeking arrangements, people aren't Dating anymore. Why put sex on layaway? There's a funny joey Diaz podcast with a chick comedian going on a tangent about not wanting to pound after food. It reminds me of Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting on a date with Sky. And she says he's wondering if he will get a good night kiss. And he responds perfectly with, "i was wondering if I would get a good night lay." LOL. 

 

Op, why don't you approach lots, casually date, and then let the chips fall where they may? All the best LTRs i know met, SNL and it evolved. Suckers downplay the importance of sex. More importantly, there's no substitute for real genuine desire. Good luck. 

[Leo Gura]

Closing is a very specific skill set.

If you want to just date randomly and see what happens, go ahead. But you'll lose lots of girls. If you're okay with that, fine. But most guys would get very frustrated and want to construct an optimized skill set to deal with the repeated challenges.

@Elisabeth I understand your disgust, but you also have to see the relativity of the situation. Dating for men and for women is very different. This advice doesn't make sense from a woman's perspective but it does from the man's. You have to appreciate how much rejection the man has to deal with. It's not like the man can only approach one girl and make it happen. He has to approach hundreds. That process by its very nature is mechanical and objectifying, not just of the woman but also for the man. Imagine approaching 100 people and getting rejected 95 times. What do you do? Imagine that out of 100 approaches you get 5 people to like you and agree to come home with you because it's the world's perfect match. A match made in heaven. But then 4 in 5 times the person's friends will come and drag them away and you will never speak to them again. What do you do when facing such odds?

See, from the woman's POV none of this is noticed as a problem because you play the selector role and you don't have to do 100s of approaches. From your POV, one right approach is all it takes because you are on the receiving end of the approach. So from your selfish POV you think a guy should invest tons of energy into one approach. But from the guy's POV it's exactly the opposite. He can't invest any energy into any one approach because most of them fail.

Notice the relativity in self-agenda here. If you say, "But what about true love?" Yeah, that's your female self-agenda. "True love" is defined differently for a female vs a male given their reproductive asymmetries.

Neither side is right. It's relative. It's survival. It's selfishness.

My advice was for men, not for women. Of course women are not going to like it because if dating advice is any good it, by definition, encroaches on the other gender's self-agenda. The man's agenda is to invest less energy into the woman, the woman's agenda is to have the man invest all his energy into her alone. At least initially until a serious relationship is formed. Then things can equalize somewhat.

[Elisabeth]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Closing is a very specific skill set.

If you want to just date randomly and see what happens. Go ahead. But you'll lose lots of girls. If you're okay with that, fine. But most guys would get very frustrated and want to construct an optimized skill set to deal with the repeated challenges.

@Elisabeth I understand your disgust, but you also have to see the relativity of the situation. Dating for men and for women is very different. This advice doesn't make sense from a woman's perspective but it does from the man's.

I'm trying to see the male perspective. I've been bumping into it. 

I still fail to see how advice that leads to disgust in the opposite gender is going to lead to success. Wouldn't following this advice also elicit disgust? It does in me. But I'm not your typical pickup target, never done a one-night stand (though I enjoyed a bunch of tantric evenings, got tied by almost-strangers etc.).

I do get that men need to build the skills you describe. What I'm missing is informed consent and reciprocity. I know that many young women are unable to give that, but that leads to incredible damage. (What I'm also missing, in general, is any guidance for the many submissive men out there, but that's beside the point now.)

At the level of understanding I'm at, I think women need to accept and welcome the male sexual drive (as well as their own), while still doing their active choice. This is also a bunch of non-trivial skills to learn. Men need to approach in a way that's respectful, ie seeking informed consent and seeing her and the process unfolding and not just be blinded by the end-goal. Why not talk along those lines?

Edited January 25, 2020 by Elisabeth

[Guest SirVladimir]

I don't understand why this sub-forum is for real here. We are talkin' all turquoise until it comes to dating, then we are suddenly back to orange. Why? I apologize to all other men, but it feels like a shadow thinking. @see_on_see, @Anna1 and @Elisabeth thank you for pointing things out.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

This advice doesn't make sense from a woman's perspective but it does from the man's. You have to appreciate how much rejection the man has to deal with. It's not like the man can only approach one girl and make it happen. He has to approach hundreds. That process by its very nature is mechanical and objectifying, not just of the woman but also for the man. Imagine approaching 100 people and getting rejected 95 times. What do you do? Imagine that out of 100 approaches you get 5 people to like you and agree to come home with you because it's the world's perfect match. A match made in heaven. But then 4 in 5 times the person's friends will come and drag them away and you will never speak to them again. What do you do when facing such odds?

This is precisely how I see door-to-door salesmen with cooking pots justify selling junk, their scammy tactics and their business model in general. Because how else could they survive? It's like having sex with an unaware NPC. But perhaps that's just me. You guys do whatever you want.

[Elisabeth]

@SirVladimir Wow, thanks. 

 

 

 

1

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

My advice was for men, not for women. Of course women are not going to like it because if dating advice is any good it, by definition, encroaches on the other gender's self-agenda. The man's agenda is to invest less energy into the woman, the woman's agenda is to have the man invest all his energy into her alone. At least initially until a serious relationship is formed. Then things can equalize somewhat.

@Leo Gura I promise to ask more about the experience of men that I know. But I don't believe dating has to be as one-sided as you describe it. Btw. I've approached men when in love, or with my erotic wishes. Some of it worked. And no cold approach works with me. 

To the extent conscious politics is possible, why not conscious dating? Why not seek the most win-win approaches to relating? (including one-night stands into relating, if that's a thing the woman is into) 

[Meetjoeblack]

2 hours ago, SirVladimir said:

I don't understand why this sub-forum is for real here. We are talkin' all turquoise until it comes to dating, then we are suddenly back to orange. Why? I apologize to all other men, but it feels like a shadow thinking. @see_on_see, @Anna1 and @Elisabeth thank you for pointing things out.

This is precisely how I see door-to-door salesmen with cooking pots justify selling junk, their scammy tactics and their business model in general. Because how else could they survive? It's like having sex with an unaware NPC. But perhaps that's just me. You guys do whatever you want.

That's called plausible deniability. 

 Kathy Bates says ‘in her day’ women knew 'exactly why they were going’ to men’s hotel rooms

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/kathy-bates-metoo-harvey-weinstein-hotel-room-sexual-abuse-assault-a9287881.html

Its apparent that the man's a savage. Again, going to hotel room after hours. Riddle me that. 

Probably just there to talk lol. 

 

Being rapey is obviously bad and unaccepted. Clearly, false accusations is bad too. Being vindictive is common place and today, any such accusation is a death sentence. 

 Jian Ghomeshi acquitted of all charges in sexual assault trial 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/24/jian-ghomeshi-acquitted-sexual-assault-trial

A series of lies, deceit, and examples of being vindictive as well as collusion. Buddy has his life ruined. No fallout or jail time for lying under oath multiple times. 

I agree with Owen Cook. The only thing creepier then pickup is not knowing pickup. 

 

 

[Meetjoeblack]

30 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

@SirVladimir Wow, thanks. 

@Leo Gura I promise to ask more about the experience of men that I know. But I don't believe dating has to be as one-sided as you describe it. Btw. I've approached men when in love, or with my erotic wishes. Some of it worked. And no cold approach works with me. 

To the extent conscious politics is possible, why not conscious dating? Why not seek the most win-win approaches to relating? (including one-night stands into relating, if that's a thing the woman is into) 

Good game is subtle. You wouldn't know its happening. If it didn't work, it would not annoy you this much. You would assume it is silliness and not even be bothered by it. 

The annoying thing about modern era dating is the plausible deniability and not keeping it real. 

 

Quote

  "As OK Cupid has demonstrated, women rate 80 percent of men below average." 

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2011/06/vox-at-alpha-game-dont-listen-to-female.html?m=1

 

Its a classic example of the pareto distribution. There's a difference in Drake or dicaprios Dating life versus Tom Arnold lol. 

 

As for conscious dating, you have no clue how many guys are terrified in approaching. A miniscule amount will. Usually more (not less) alpha. Usually, better not worst experience. Even the few people who approach, even far less are any good at it. 

Guys will never get the life of a girl anymore than girls get what it's like being a guy. For all equality jargon, the status quo is still expected men approach. 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Meetjoeblack

[Meetjoeblack]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Closing is a very specific skill set.

If you want to just date randomly and see what happens, go ahead. But you'll lose lots of girls. If you're okay with that, fine. But most guys would get very frustrated and want to construct an optimized skill set to deal with the repeated challenges.

@Elisabeth I understand your disgust, but you also have to see the relativity of the situation. Dating for men and for women is very different. This advice doesn't make sense from a woman's perspective but it does from the man's. You have to appreciate how much rejection the man has to deal with. It's not like the man can only approach one girl and make it happen. He has to approach hundreds. That process by its very nature is mechanical and objectifying, not just of the woman but also for the man. Imagine approaching 100 people and getting rejected 95 times. What do you do? Imagine that out of 100 approaches you get 5 people to like you and agree to come home with you because it's the world's perfect match. A match made in heaven. But then 4 in 5 times the person's friends will come and drag them away and you will never speak to them again. What do you do when facing such odds?

See, from the woman's POV none of this is noticed as a problem because you play the selector role and you don't have to do 100s of approaches. From your POV, one right approach is all it takes because you are on the receiving end of the approach. So from your selfish POV you think a guy should invest tons of energy into one approach. But from the guy's POV it's exactly the opposite. He can't invest any energy into any one approach because most of them fail.

Notice the relativity in self-agenda here. If you say, "But what about true love?" Yeah, that's your female self-agenda. "True love" is defined differently for a female vs a male given their reproductive asymmetries.

Neither side is right. It's relative. It's survival. It's selfishness.

My advice was for men, not for women. Of course women are not going to like it because if dating advice is any good it, by definition, encroaches on the other gender's self-agenda. The man's agenda is to invest less energy into the woman, the woman's agenda is to have the man invest all his energy into her alone. At least initially until a serious relationship is formed. Then things can equalize somewhat.

Its why every dating coach ever has always said its a numbers game. To field test everything. 

Its simply Pragmatism at work to invest based on genuine desire and nothing butt. 

Its funny reading some comments because its like people are speaking another language. In a way, its very much so like a language barrier. 

 

The best example i heard was, sleeping with Jon Jones or Deontay Wilder + thinking you know how to fight now. The POV is comical at best. Being approached and approaching is not the same. The everything is equal crap is brain rot as reflected in the pof study for female mate choice linked above. Not reality. 80% seems to be a common theme. 

 

I was prowling through the bar one night. I lost count of the approaches before sexy time. For all the demonising of men and wanting sex, the volume of women met who were trying to leech free drinks, bottle service, and status is ridiculous. On both occasions, both are being selfish. 

The difference between the two is at least one is blatant obvious about sexy time versus pretending to like men for bottle service, free drinks, and vip or something status related. 

Again, its hilarious seeing the POV. The amount of volume that this lifestyle requires is outrage but again, i ask, what's the alternative? 

I have shifted gears with the purpose course. Allocate time to more worthy causes but the analytics following pickup and before is night and day. More importantly, seeing that a botched approach and rejection is not a death sentence IS a monumental moment for every man especially in a rra that simps and panders. Men have no rite of passage anymore. 

I am so sick of the participation trophy and ribbon nonsense. Its first loser. Handling the Ls and rejection is of the utmost importance. Its more annoying hearing the pity party afterwards. 

Similar to the comment about sex with jon Jones and thinking you can fight comes to mind when hearing people rant against pickup but don't approach. Guy or girl, its annoying. 

@Leo Gurai agree with you that its orange. That there's higher plains of consciousness. Again without the male rite of passage and era of participation trophies or ribbons, I think cold approach and psychedelics are a must.

You get banged up in both of them but something is gained thereafter (hopefully). 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Meetjoeblack

[Lynnel]

5 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

 But I'm not your typical pickup target, never done a one-night stand

The deal is it's never gonna be like that in real life.

Like you've surely had a girlfriend tell you a story along the lines " oh I just met this nice guy and we had great chemistry and we went for drinks and now we've been dating for 3 months and it's great".

If an attractive guy is suddently talking to you you're not gonna be like "omg I have to run I am a pick up target"  

You're just gonna tell yourself a story oh I randomly met a cute guy while going out yesterday or during my lectures and that's it.

The story of how you met your boyfriend is not gonna be : oh well he had to train for several years before he approached me (and it was the 51 first girls he talked to that night) and we got a great connection because he actually spent time working on his social skills and not being a complete looser. Duh.

Becoming attractive has nothing to do with the creepy examples the media LOVES to throw at you !

 

[Adam M]

@see_on_see awesome response, I have read models by mark Manson and have been dating stage green girls and I agree with your response 100%. 

[Adam M]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Closing is a very specific skill set.

If you want to just date randomly and see what happens, go ahead. But you'll lose lots of girls. If you're okay with that, fine. But most guys would get very frustrated and want to construct an optimized skill set to deal with the repeated challenges.

@Elisabeth I understand your disgust, but you also have to see the relativity of the situation. Dating for men and for women is very different. This advice doesn't make sense from a woman's perspective but it does from the man's. You have to appreciate how much rejection the man has to deal with. It's not like the man can only approach one girl and make it happen. He has to approach hundreds. That process by its very nature is mechanical and objectifying, not just of the woman but also for the man. Imagine approaching 100 people and getting rejected 95 times. What do you do? Imagine that out of 100 approaches you get 5 people to like you and agree to come home with you because it's the world's perfect match. A match made in heaven. But then 4 in 5 times the person's friends will come and drag them away and you will never speak to them again. What do you do when facing such odds?

See, from the woman's POV none of this is noticed as a problem because you play the selector role and you don't have to do 100s of approaches. From your POV, one right approach is all it takes because you are on the receiving end of the approach. So from your selfish POV you think a guy should invest tons of energy into one approach. But from the guy's POV it's exactly the opposite. He can't invest any energy into any one approach because most of them fail.

Notice the relativity in self-agenda here. If you say, "But what about true love?" Yeah, that's your female self-agenda. "True love" is defined differently for a female vs a male given their reproductive asymmetries.

Neither side is right. It's relative. It's survival. It's selfishness.

My advice was for men, not for women. Of course women are not going to like it because if dating advice is any good it, by definition, encroaches on the other gender's self-agenda. The man's agenda is to invest less energy into the woman, the woman's agenda is to have the man invest all his energy into her alone. At least initially until a serious relationship is formed. Then things can equalize somewhat.

This is GOLDEN.

MEN OBJECTIFY THE WORLD.

The process of dating for the logical-minded male is a 1-2-3 step formula that seems 'slimy' or 'manipulative' to women. But that's how men see the world. In any man-to-woman interaction, the masculine is handling the logistics (what to do, where to go) while the feminine is following and being pretty. This is why the man must be skillful in his execution of bringing a girl back to his place. This doesn't mean that he's tricking her into sleeping with him. If the man has bad logistics, he can't lead the interaction forward towards greater and deeper intimacy (what is ultimately what both the man and the woman want).

Also, to clarify some previous points, manipulation is a core part of your entire life, including relationships. You manipulate the world from the second you wake up and put clothes on your back. You are always manipulating the world to get what you want. Men 'manipulate' women with logistics and flirting tactics in the same way women 'manipulate' men by wearing makeup and putting on red lipstick.

Obviously, it is important for men to be educated about the importance of treating women with respect and dignity. However, don't be surprised when a stage orange man fails to do this. Especially if he is accustomed to lusting after stage orange women who tend to objectify themselves... stage orange in general views the world 'objectively.'

If you are a stage green woman, you will see stage orange men as manipulative douchebags that only care about getting another notch on their bedpost.

Ironically, this is what stage orange women tend to be attracted to.

I say leave them be.

If you are a stage green woman then it is your responsibility to find stage green men who resonate with your values (authenticity, connection, empathy).

Edited January 25, 2020 by Adam M

[Forestluv]

4 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Look at what's the reaction on the forum.  Literally zero of us here find this way of dealing with relationship attractive.

Two fundamental reasons I find it unattractive is because it objectifies women and reduces sex to physical penetration. To me, that is unattractive. And saying it’s “disgusting from a woman’s perspective, not a male’s perspective”, are excluding all the men that find it disgusting as well. Saying “from the males perspective. . . “ - suggests it is representative of a male perspective, yet it’s not. It is a subset of men, men that have an end goal of physical sex as their single highest priority. Men that think with their dick. Not all men all like this. As well, this orientation is not very loving. It is highly self-centered. We could say “well, women are self-centered too because they seek emotional and financial support” - yet this does not change the low conscious nature of a male sexually objectifying a woman toward his own sexual desires. At best, one could say both have self-centered orientations. If so, I think it’s most beneficial to develop toward a higher conscious states than stay stuck in a contracted self-centered state.

This idea of “closing” is inherently objectifying. A person closes on an object. One closes on buying a house or car. One closes on catching a loose chicken in a yard. The objective here is to “close” by inserting one penis into a vagina. And even then one hasn’t fully closed on their target - even with penis inserted she might still get away! There isn’t full closure yet. . . 

This talk about getting to know her, having mutual desire, getting informed genuine consent, making connections etc. all are secondary. The primary goal of “closure” is physical sex. The orientation is a “me” that wants to close on “you” - which means physical sex. The woman is included to the extent that she is the object to have sex with. The orientation of closing is that I close on you. The orientation is not we are closing together. . . The guides are all oriented toward having a sex with a female object. The stuff about connections, informed genuine consent, considering her welfare are secondary after thoughts. It’s not until one is called on it, do things like “oh yea, connection and her welfare is important too. It’s win-win”. Yet “win-win” is not the primary goal. One’s “lay count” is the number of women and sexual encounters. It is not the number of “win-win” encounters.

I think there are likely some good techniques in this strategy that can help a guy developing confidence to approach and meet women. It can allow meeting new people, perhaps new contacts, friends and lovers. My problem with a lot of the talk is that it strips things down to a woman object and attaining a self desire of sex. The end goal is closure and increasing one’s “lay count”. (Each woman scores as a “count”, which is a form of objectification). Everything else is secondary. If a guy goes on a date and forms various connections with a woman and they have a wonderful time together - that ain’t it. If she says she enjoys your time together and would like todo it again, yet doesn’t feel like having sex - that ain’t “closure”. In spite of the great connections and potential platonic relationship that could form - this situation would be seen as a “failure” and “rejection” because the orientation of the “closure” goal is sex. All the stuff about connections is only relevant if it helps lead to closing on sex. With this orientation one would interpret the mutual connections and enjoyment shared with her to be a “bad” thing that screwed up my chances for sex. The guy may contextualize the connections and enjoyment as “I failed. Maybe I was too nice and she saw me as a friend”. . . 

I suppose some guys can find it attractive to peruse a woman primarily as an object of their sexual desire. I don’t. Ime, it’s a low conscious encounter. It would be like being in the restroom of a music festival - and feeling relief after releasing bodily fluids. . . Then staying in the restroom with no awareness that a music festival is available. 

19 minutes ago, Adam M said:

The process of dating for the logical-minded male is a 1-2-3 step formula that seems 'slimy' or 'manipulative' to women. But that's how men see the world.

That is how a subset of men see the world. Many men do not see the world that way.

19 minutes ago, Adam M said:

I find women fail to realize how dating works from a man's perspective.

It’s not a “man’s perspective”. It’s a man’s perspective that is thinking with his dick. A lot of men don’t think primarily with their dick and would not share this perspective. A higher conscious perspective is available for men. 

 

 

[Adam M]

23 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is not a “man’s perspective”. It is a man’s perspective that is thinking with his dick. A lot of men don’t think primarily with their dick and would not share this perspective. A higher conscious perspective is available for men. 

Many men in our society think with their dick. Although there are obvious problems with doing so, this is the level of consciousness that most people are at.

A higher perspective is available, but it would require lots of personal development work. 

Higher-consciousness dating is a very interesting topic that is pretty well-articulated by David Deida and is something all of us can aspire towards.

I like your thinking on this topic though, it closely parallels my own thinking in my personal dating life.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Adam M

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, Adam M said:

Many men in our society think with their dick. Although there are obvious problems with doing so, this is the level of consciousness that most people are at.

A higher perspective is available, but it would require lots of personal development work. 

Higher-consciousness dating is a very interesting topic that is pretty well-articulated by David Deida and is something all of us can aspire towards.

Yes. I agree many men are oriented this way.  I just wanted to make the point that when guys say “From the man’s perspective. . . “. it  means “From the perspective of men that think with their dick. . . “. Some guys see dating and relationships more holistically in which their dick is just one of many components. 

I haven’t read David Deida, yet I’ve been noticing a lot of men evolving upward mention his name. It would be great to have more men like that as role models. 

Ime, the understanding of high conscious romantic relationships - such as the integration and embodiment of  forms of communication, energetics, empath, love, sex - come from the direct experience of actually being in those high conscious relationships. It does not come from reading about it, thinking about it or even psychedelics. The deepest understanding comes from the actual experience of the ISness itself within the relationship. Yet few men have this experience.

[knakoo]

@Leo Gura Hi Leo, I have been doing game for many years so what you are saying resonate with me.

I have read the following post on reddit recently that I found very inspiring and doesn't completely match what I learned in game. That feels like green or above dating for people who are interested. I think the less egotistical I become the more I will move into that direction.  I would be very curious to know what you think of it.

Cheers,

https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/dnjzzo/dont_try_to_get_her_interested_attraction_is/

 

One thing I see a lot on this sub is questions about interest : "I want to know is she is interested", "I think she was interested but I couldn't escalate", "How to make that girl interested ?" and so on. I feel like addressing that, and would welcome any feedback or comments.

Interest is mental. It's in your head, it's rational, it's in control. Excitement is in your body, you feel it inside you. It's a powerful force that you can't control. Imagine you're going to see a movie, one you tell yourself "oh I'm really interested to see that movie", and the other one "Oh I'm so excited to see that movie !". Do you feel the difference ? In your opinion, which one will you go for ?

I had a discussion yesterday with one of my LTRs. She was telling me about this guy she had a date with. She told me "It went very well. I want to see him again but I'm afraid he will think there is seduction going on between us". I was surprised, and feeling bad for the poor guy, so I asked "well what makes you want to see him again if you don't want any seduction ?". And she told me he was very interesting, a fascinating person and discussion with him was smooth and intellectually stimulating. She would love to see him again. Obviously I told her he would probably like more than that and any guy I know after a date that went well would not be happy if the girl said "Hey I would love to see you again as friends".

I asked her : "but what's different with me ?" (our relationship is still pretty recent, we had sex on the first date and we connect very well physically). And she said something along the lines of "I don't know. I'm just so excited when I see you. I never know what will happen, and when we see each other I feel like my brain just melts and my body takes the lead".

I feel it's something that happens more and more often to me. I used to be all in my head, trying to show I was smart, funny, nice, interesting. I was focusing on looking good, demonstrate value, making money. And I didn't have nearly as much success as I do now. Now I have girls telling me that they have butterflies in their stomach when they think about me, that I'm always in their head. I just had a girl texting me three weeks after having sex telling me it was so profound that she made changes in her life and solved some long-lasting issues since then. So they talk about it to their friends, who obviously are very curious and interested when they meet me, and so on... So I never have to make an approach or use online dating, I just have an endless number of people wanting to meet me, interact with me, and eventually get into sensuality or sexuality with me, if excitement is there.

So, how to generate excitement ?

I think excitement goes in three steps :

Connecting to your body

Building a safe environment

Being in the flow

Step 1 : connecting to your body.

First paradox, you can't generate excitement if you're looking for excitement. Why ? Because "looking for something" is already being in your head. Right now, reading that text, picturing how it would fit in your life, what plans you can do about it, it's all in your head. You're probably asking yourself "is this worth it to read that wall of text ?", "Is this guy bullshitting or is it really an effective method ?". It's all mental.

What you need to look for is connecting to yourself. It's being inside yourself. Not only when you're with that girl, but all the time. Just noticing what goes inside you, without trying to change anything. When you have an emotion, observe how you feel. Don't rationalise, don't avoid it, just stay with it.

Go for yoga, meditation, massages, anything that gets you a connection to your body and sensations. Hug deeply the people you meet, friends and family. Get used to eye contact, be at peace with your body and your nakedness (yes, by that I mean being naked in front of people). Dance, move, let your body decide what is right for it. Danse in the streets, take care of your posture, take time to close your eyes and feel your breathing. Observe the little things around you like the wind in the trees, like children having fun.

When you're with a girl you like, shortcut your thoughts into your body. If you hear a voice telling you "oh my god, I wonder if she wants me to go for the kiss ?", focus on your breathing and sensations. If you tell yourself "oh shit I don't know what to say, she must be bored right now", just breath and put your consciousness in your body.

You're there right here and right now. You're perfect the way you are at this exact moment. Life is an experience, you can sit inside of you and enjoy, look at the movie that goes in front of you, and be present with any emotion or sensation.

Step 2 : Building a safe environment

You know what is preventing most girls to be in their body during interactions ? A perception of danger. During a first date, most guys will be stuck in their head trying to get laid, while most girls will be stuck in their head trying to protect themselves from getting in a situation they don't want.

Anxiety is the number one excitement-killer. It's the best way to not be in your body and even to dissociate (it's when you get completely disconnected from your body because the sensations are too difficult to handle. It's very important you know this so you can identify it and prevent it in yourself and the person you're with).

Number one safety-builder is consent. Basically the girl should feel at any point that she can decide what she wants and nothing is forced on her. There is no pression, no expectation other than for her to choose what she wants. It's especially true in the first steps of the interaction when there is still a bit of tension. Asking "can I touch your hand ?" instead of touching it directly will reassure her. Maybe she will be surprised, telling you "well of course you can, you don't have to ask !", but deep down she can rest a bit a be a bit more in her body.

Ask for questions that have yes / no answers. Like "do you want us to go to my place ?" and not "Where do you want to go ?". If she hesitates, diffuse the tension "Ok, I feel that's a maybe, so maybe we can take it as a no right now and see if that changes at some point". Just let her know that she can take her time to decide, and that anything that is not an enthusiastic yes is a no. That's what safety is.

Final tip for consent, the "thank you for you no" method. Whenever you hear someone declining your proposition, look at her in the eyes and say from your heart "thank you for your no". Why ? Because saying no is hard. Many girls are afraid to say no to guys because they don't want to hurt their feeling, they don't them to be frustrated, they don't want to argue. By saying that you put value on her being able to say what is right for her and affirming her boundaries. That's also great for you because you don't want anyone to do something with you they don't want to do, right ? I can't overstate how powerful it is and how I have seen some girls completely drop all their mental barriers after hearing that. Of course you have to really mean it, if you ask again 3 minutes later or if you show frustration, it doesn't do any good

Another way to build safety is to have emotional and vulnerable discussion. The question "how do you feel ?" (and NOT "are you okay ?") is your best friend. You can ask it at any moment about anything. Go deep, don't stay on the surface. Learn to be vulnerable. Vulnerability is the most attractive trait in a human being. Scientific experiences have been made that show that we connect through our vulnerabilities (look at "the power of vulnerability" Ted Talk if you haven't already). The more you'll be able to talk about your emotions, your fears, your struggles, your emotional wounds, even your relationship to your parents, the more quickly you will build a deep sense of connection and security. Whatever is shared, especially if that's something emotional, welcome it and don't judge it. Listen attentively, and thank her for being herself in front of you. Most people never hear a thanks for just opening to someone, but that's very courageous. Be willing to show who you are, even the parts you struggle to love, and be open to welcome fully that person.

I need to precise something : you're not trying to please her. If you try to please her and agree with everything she says because you fear she will not like you, you will end up in the "boring zone" (which is the real name of the friend zone, being friends is great, being boring is not). Be honest and don't try to be liked, just try to integrate that person into your world, to make her feel at home in the interaction with you. Like she would with someone she has known for a long time and feel intimate with.

Step 3 : being in the flow

Ok so now you're able to connect to your body at will and are not intruded by self-judging thoughts. The beautiful person in front of you is completely secure and ready to abandon herself to her sensations. So what should you do ?

Nothing. There is nothing that should do. Don't try to impress her, don't try to "demonstrate value", don't try to escalate, and don't try to have sex. Instead, allow yourself to be who you are. What do you feel like doing ? Express what goes trough you. Be vulnerable, be authentic. If you feel awkward, say it, the other person probably feels it too. If you are afraid, share it ! If you want to touch her, ask for it. You want to be with her in a more intimate place ? Propose. You don't have anything to say ? Just contemplate the silence. You feel good ? Just say "I feel good when I'm with you". Smile if you feel like smiling, let spontaneity express itself through you (but don't ask yourself to be spontaneous !), be present and follow your intuition.

Being with the flow means not resisting to anything that life trows at you. She is expressing some negativity ? Don't consider it as a "shit test", it's just the expression of some insecurity. Take care of it. Be caring with everyone, but do not care about anything. Caring about someone is being present for that person, it's being deeply committed to make the experience as truthful and meaningful as possible. Caring about something is taking things personally, it's taking a no as a rejection, it's trying to make the person like you, it's putting expectations on what should happen.

When you're in the flow, you never know what will happen. This is something that I hear all the time "wow, I didn't expect us to have sex / to spend the full day together / to feel something so intense / to have so much fun". Why ? Because I didn't intend for any of those things to happen. I just tried to be present in the moment, listening to my desires and acting on them without expecting anything from the other person. Fulfilment doesn't come from reaching objectives that only generates more objectives. Fulfilment comes from loving the experience no matter what happens and feeling gratitude for being alive right here and right now.

Here are a few words I would advise to get rid of because they all put your power on external forces. You're better off without them :

Shit test : No one is testing you. You're yourself, there is nothing to test about that. Some reactions can generate anxiety inside you, and it's fine. Accept it as any emotion, smile, and stay connected to yourself.

Being rejected : you can't be rejected. You're a complete human being, nobody has the power to reject you. But they can decline your propositions. Start conversations with a closed question : "can I talk to you for a minute ?", "Can I sit with you ?". If you hear a no, just say "thank you for your no" and move on.

Cockblock : You can't be cockblocked if you're in the flow. The situation can change, people can interact, but it's not about you. A few days ago I was about to have a threesome when one of the girls' roommate got in the apartment in tears because of a break-up and we spent the evening giving her emotional support. Was I "cockblocked" ? No, I just adapted, took the change of situation as an opportunity to bring support to someone and made a deeper connection with three people. Use the word "opportunity" instead, it will change your mindset.

Physical type, as in "I'm not her physical type" : There is no physical type. Attraction is not about putting people into boxes. When a girl is attracted to you, she is not having a checklist of things you have and don't have, giving you a grade and then telling herself "hey, that's good enough for me". That's just mental bullshit. Attraction is about what you feel, what goes in your body. No matter how you look, you can still connect with anyone. You can build excitement, you can have a meaningful moment with no expectation.

League, as is "she's out of my league". There is no league. The most attractive guy I know is very average-looking. He's just magnetic, because he loves himself, he connects to his body, he builds the most amazing sense of safety and he is so much in the flow it's like he's synched to the other person. When he listens to you, it's like nobody has ever listened to you before. When he touches you, it's exactly the way you want to be touched. And there is never any pression to go forward or to do anything that is not right for you. The only important thing about appearance is that you love being in that body and you take care of it.

The more you practice being in the present moment, the easier it gets. After a while you'll realise that the girls you find the most attractive are also the ones that you connect with the most intensely. Why ? Because once you're not in your head, you will see beauty as something authentic and personal, not "this girl is pretty because she has nice make-up and good symmetry". You will go for physical features that appeal to you, that make sense to you. And your intuitive mind knows what is right for you.

It was a bit longer than expected, I hope it will help some of you. I can assure you that once you get into that authentic and mindful connection, seduction becomes like a dance. You let your mind go and deeply connect to yourself and the other person. You will see girls having a huge smile whenever they see you, you will have much better sex whenever you want and you will feel love and gratitude in your body and can share that feeling with the world.

I wish you all a wonderful journey.

[Derek White]

4 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

We indeed get plenty of request that isn't the right fit, but will pretend it is to get laid. It might look like it's unfair and we have it better, but it's also frankly miserable on our end of the spectrum...

How are you going to criticize men for wanting sex and objectifying women when you make statements like this?

4 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

To be fair, both genders have to meet hundreds or thousands before finding someone that's worth it, and have the fear of letting it slip away with a silly mistake.

Ya, but women don’t have to do anything whereas, men are the ones working to make appealing proposals. It’s asymmetrical. So it’s equally hard for both genders.

I think @Adam M answered it beautifully.

@Serotoninluv I agree with you that it’s not enjoyable if you’re worried you can lose her in the middle of the act... I’m not trying to catch a case or be on a #meetoo scandal.

I agree with what you say on one level (it’s a values mismatch) but at the same time I see it as impractical...

I think Leo’s advice was for stage orange men who want to hook up with stage orange women (stage orange women who often think like the stage orange men). And I think the impact of the hook up on the woman is highly exaggerated by many on this thread. If your intentions are clear then it shouldn’t be the problem. Obviously it’s disgusting from a stage green perspective but I don’t think it’s objectively disgusting. Leo is not telling people to go around raping women or to pressurize them into having sex. When he said you can lose her in the act, I see it as him telling men to be respectful to the woman. Respect and consent are very important, no ones denying that.

I think you need manipulation in any relationship. You need to manipulate in friendships and with parents to have deep conversations. Women need to manipulate to get a guy who will give her security. Men need to manipulate a lot to fulfill their sexual needs, while also making sure the woman is consenting and comfortable (important!).

[Meetjoeblack]

5 hours ago, Lynnel said:

The deal is it's never gonna be like that in real life.

Like you've surely had a girlfriend tell you a story along the lines " oh I just met this nice guy and we had great chemistry and we went for drinks and now we've been dating for 3 months and it's great".

If an attractive guy is suddently talking to you you're not gonna be like "omg I have to run I am a pick up target"  

You're just gonna tell yourself a story oh I randomly met a cute guy while going out yesterday or during my lectures and that's it.

The story of how you met your boyfriend is not gonna be : oh well he had to train for several years before he approached me (and it was the 51 first girls he talked to that night) and we got a great connection because he actually spent time working on his social skills and not being a complete looser. Duh.

Becoming attractive has nothing to do with the creepy examples the media LOVES to throw at you !

 

+1

One of my friends is a good looking fella from the Greek Islands. 

He is a painfully shy guy but mentioned a book that helped. I have not looked back. Its funny how, he always had beautiful dates just no funnel or means to meet. He set me up on a double. The girl was absolutely stunning. I love that guy. The sort of friend I'd throw down for. 

My buddy can squeek through the approach and girls are just into him. He is a good friend and a awesome guy. Its hilarious too because most girls will never think about pickup. He's good looking. 

[Meetjoeblack]

30 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yes. I agree many men are oriented this way.  I just wanted to make the point that when guys say “From the man’s perspective. . . “. it  means “From the perspective of men that think with their dick. . . “. Some guys see dating and relationships more holistically in which their dick is just one of many components. 

I haven’t read David Deida, yet I’ve been noticing a lot of men evolving upward mention his name. It would be great to have more men like that as role models. 

Ime, the understanding of high conscious romantic relationships - such as the integration and embodiment of  forms of communication, energetics, empath, love, sex - come from the direct experience of actually being in those high conscious relationships. It does not come from reading about it, thinking about it or even psychedelics. The deepest understanding comes from the actual experience of the ISness itself within the relationship. Yet few men have this experience.

Greatest book everyman nust read in his life. Top #3 if not 1. I'll reread it a few times a year. 

 

Owen Cook put me onto Deida and Ecky. I have not looked back. Check his content. Deida is a wizard. 

It conveniently coincides with the purpose course by Leo lol

@Serotoninluv was the complaint about closing for Leo? lol. 

I don't get it lololol 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Meetjoeblack