help me with this mathmatical proof?

[Forestluv]

@RevoCulture Whoosh!!

[RevoCulture]

@Serotoninluv Its ok...   We have more in common than you wish to admit my friend.   

Is the "whoosh" me nailing that 3 for the win.. 

or  Is it the sound "whoosh" of what I said flying over your head

or is it the sound "whoosh" of the internal fire you seem to light upon seeing my presence..

no...

It is probably you, once again saying... "you don't get it"

Pretty sure I have littered that breadcrumb trail through my posts.. IDK.. I don't know.. I don't get it..   

Edited January 20, 2020 by RevoCulture

[RevoCulture]

@Serotoninluv

I enjoy Proverbs 27:17

“Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another” 

Thanks for being there for me!

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, RevoCulture said:

@Serotoninluv Its ok...   We have more in common than you wish to admit my friend.   

What I’m pointing at is not about personalities. It’s not about “me” and “you” and what we may or may not have in common. That is a distraction. 

What I’m pointing at is a dynamic of narrative control in the mind and it can be very difficult to surrender and let go of. Notice how the mind wants to control the narrative. This is a contraction that will not allow for certain expansions. I know this psychological dynamic well. I’ve had to work through it in many different contexts. 

[RevoCulture]

30 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I went through a similar dynamic as a trained scientist. I would question someone about metaphysics, yet I wanted evidence and I would only accept physical evidence and logic. I wanted to set the structure of the dialog. This is a form of narrative control in the mind that kept me contracted within a scientific paradigm. I had to realize that I was missing something and be open to learning with however those insights arose. When I joined the forum there were several users that were trying to point to my attachment to materialism and intellect. I realized I was mussing something and got really curious. One of the keys for me was letting go of my desire for a certain form of evidence. This was challenging to me because my mind is very conceptual. 

I appreciate this sharing, it has a soft spot in my heart.  My first memory is an "energy exchange" emotion transmission among the people present.  It set the tone for my life.  I am intuitive and a feeler, intensely so..   I feel and see things and then I craft language to encapsulate them.  I have long held that emotion proceeds thought, psych development to me.  

Being able to wrap my feelings in words.. to be poetic... has been a source for people to attack me as well.  They say, you can speak in detail therefore you don't feel.  Makes me sad but we all know what we know.. I have been beaten down by many..  something tough about being intuitive and highly sensitive.. exposed to people intentions, feelings, and thoughts.... like a club or a fist they come at you...   I have tried to express the idea that violence is violence regardless of where it comes from...   (seem you might think I don't relate to my own slice of the pie, my contribution, well I am aware so aware that I get to pay twice..)

Congrats and my empathy on the journey.. 

[RevoCulture]

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

What I’m pointing at is not about personalities. It’s not about “me” and “you” and what we may or may not have in common. That is a distraction. 

What I’m pointing at is a dynamic of narrative control in the mind and it can be very difficult to surrender and let go of. Notice how the mind wants to control the narrative. It is a contraction that will not allow for certain expansions. 

Ok... then you can reference those parts of my contribution in the conversation.  You just picked out one piece and acted like that was it.  

[RevoCulture]

I will bow out of this conversation..

You are saying that you are discussing narrative control and that my response is "Its ok...   We have more in common than you wish to admit my friend."   . 

You totally ignored the previous comments about narrative. 

Asking for someone to elaborate on thoughts, elaborate so I have an idea of what they are seeing is not narrative control, it is a desire to understand.  "you are wrong" doesn't say anything.  And you are saying if I ask for something beyond this that I am attempting to control the narrative?   

If I am not mistaking, I feel silly saying this, you are claiming that if I ask for anything of substance, some insight, that I am controlling the narrative.  I have no were to go with this.  And I can't learn from "you are wrong".  

You seem to not care for my person, my expression.   I am ok with that, I respect that.    Much love, and thank you for being you, it is a good thing.  

Discussion on narrative.. 

29 minutes ago, RevoCulture said:

@Serotoninluv  Thanks for communicating again.. you went silent and didn't complete our prior conversation.  

If you want to be openly truthful and honest across the board for all participants in the forum you are going to find dynamics abound.  This isn't a secret.  If we were to review your posts we will find "dynamics" as well.   

If and when you pull out the totality of my posts and review them, they will paint a picture, one that is weighted towards support and positivity and yes there will be a few moments where I engage with people that isn't all rainbows and unicorns... but..

when you look at the name calling, the swearing, the vulgar responses of some (which I personally understand from particular perspective), the passive aggressive etc.... I tend to stay away from swearing at people and using vulgar language.  

It is part of the process and we all are in the mix.. We are doing what we can with what we have.  

It seem you offer plenty of responses that are counter to what is being expressed, does that mean you are a common denominator, yes it does.  I support you in your attempt to convey and work with what you have.  

I find it hard that you don't understand why I would rather have detail than "your wrong" , "your assuming", "you don't get it"  sorry but those aren't helpful.  What is helpful is insight.   Sad as such a prominent figure you don't understand that.   

You have definitely demonstrated particular energy towards me.. and it is interesting that you find it to be acceptable in an unspoken defensible position but who I am isn't...   Blessings.. 

1 hour ago, RevoCulture said:

@Mu_ I welcome insights for sure.  I am a work in progress.  One thing that helps is when people dig in and break things down, like explain what they see.  

"you made stuff up" doesn't give me much to go on.

If you say something like shiva's comment on how do you know you knowing because what determines know... correlates with this line of thinking and attaches to this and his signature text about knowing doesn't relate to the knowing being spoken of because....

That would give me something to consider but to be honest, you made stuff up or assumed doesn't... 

Safe space, open discussion.. 

 

[Consept]

Well the question would be what are you 100% sure you know and why are you 100% sure about that? If any doubt exists then you can not claim to know anything 

[hyruga]

On 1/19/2020 at 3:49 AM, K VIL said:

i have a question in mind and want to answer it on my own. where do i start? am i on the right track?

My question is:

Is not knowing more honest than knowing?

 

Yes in the eyes of the law, 

A fraudulent misrepresentation usually carry greater penalty than negligent or innocent misrepresentation.

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, RevoCulture said:

Ok... then you can reference those parts of my contribution in the conversation.  You just picked out one piece and acted like that was it.  

There is something prior to this you are not seeing. As I said, it’s a similar dynamic as a scientist asking for proof of mysticism, yet will only accept physical proof. 

There is an aspect of letting go here. For example, when I first joined the forum I got into a disagreement with Leo about what intelligence is. I thought I was open-minded about intelligence and wanted new insights. Yet I kept dismissing what Leo said because I would only accept logic intellectual constructs and Leo kept going in what I thought was airy fairy stuff. Yet I realized I was missing something and got curious. Yet to expand, I had to surrender my desire to stay within intellectual constructs. I had to change my orientation to “maybe I don’t know what intelligence is. Maybe intelligence is more expansive than I am currently aware of”. This orientation allowed space for realizations and all sorts of insights started being revealed. Even forms of intelligence I had and was unaware of. This allowed for development of new abilities.  

The reason I jumped in was because you said you were open to insights, so I shared a few things that might be insightful. Yet it’s not resonating with you, which is fine. To you it might be a bunch if unsubstantiated gibberish, which is fine. From a certain perspective, that is true. 

[Mu_]

@RevoCulture

Sorry I didn't go into detail because I was thinking you read shiva's prior post to mine, which explained things more clearly and were in line with what I was seeing as well.  here it is if you didn't read it.

  14 hours ago, RevoCulture said:

In your message you are doing what, unfortunately, others do and making this zen like quip... this paradoxical point..   "how can YOU know "knowledge, it can't be known and on and on"     It is a weak form of discourse but we all offer what we have..

So you signature text claims that you know what "knowledge" is or at least have defined idea and from that position the rest of the "we must apply etc is carried forward...  

Shiva said:  Wow, you are really interpreting a lot into those few words. To put things straight:

My signature is a Bruce Lee quote that I find pretty cool. Nothing more. I didn't overthink it. I'm not claiming to know what "knowing" is just because I put it there. That's a ridiculous and absurd accusation.

In the context of this threat, I find that it is just common sense to wonder "how do we know that we know". 

I'm not trying to be a guru giving you zen-riddles, if that's what is bothering you. I'm not "spiritual" and I don't intend to be. You are projecting that onto me.

  14 hours ago, RevoCulture said:

It is a weak form of discourse but we all offer what we have..

Shiva said:  Wow, this is just incredibly arrogant...

 

Shiva seemed to me just to be originally asking the individual what is knowing?  Perhaps to stimulate introspection.  This then derailed into some idea you seemed to have of Shiva regarding her quote and the question and how the two somehow connected to point to Shiva's character or game she was playing.

 

[RevoCulture]

@Serotoninluv  I don't see a need to express my own person at this point but....  I will listen to any elaborations you would feel comfortable sharing.  I appreciate the story about your experience and the universal truths that lie within.   I am totally open to you taking that awareness / knowledge and then applying it to this situation or what you see, go ahead and outline a story line that brings the two together.  

Strongman what i hear you saying about your experience. Your insight is we can be locked within our perceptions of reality that we believe to be absolute.  If we don't loosen our grip on what we believe to be absolute then we prevent ourselves from being able to learn something new.  You also touch on the stereotypical division between the material reductionist mentality of the scientific method and/or the community behind it and the more metaphysically inclined interpretations of the esoteric wisdom schools.  Is that in the ballpark?

How would you then take this an apply it to what you see happening in my dialogue?  

Thanks. 

[Forestluv]

48 minutes ago, RevoCulture said:

@Serotoninluv 
Strongman what i hear you saying about your experience. Your insight is we can be locked within our perceptions of reality that we believe to be absolute.  If we don't loosen our grip on what we believe to be absolute then we prevent ourselves from being able to learn something new.  You also touch on the stereotypical division between the material reductionist mentality of the scientific method and/or the community behind it and the more metaphysically inclined interpretations of the esoteric wisdom schools.  Is that in the ballpark?

How would you then take this and apply it to what you see happening in my dialogue?  

From reading your posts, I think you are a pretty advanced conceptualizer. Yet what I’m getting at is more of a realization and awareness, than constructing a conceptual construct. I think some of your concepts are quite good and I’ve read a few that were novel to me and revealed a few things. Yet what I’m getting at is not something to conceptualize. 

[RevoCulture]

@Mu_ @Shiva

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  Always welcome.   I just lost my write up looking for Shiva's link hit SerotoninLuv's page... See if I can summarize once again..

Truth on both side here, undoubtedly.  I will admit at the end there I said "It is a weak form of discourse but we all offer what we have.."  Not necessary.. My apologies..  I do tend to see lots of currents flowing through things.. my apologies for that, what is common for me is hypersenstive to others.. no better or worse just what it is.. that is on me for not doing a better job building a base for communication.. 

I am new to the forum and have been getting a feel for it, how and if I wish to proceed.  The illusive paradoxical quips when presented a particular way do stimulate a reaction, that I am responsible for.

I have been reading what appears to be a new seekers expressing questions that are easy targets for paradoxical quips.  My connection is in the feeling of being an new seeker where reality is being ripped down, nothing makes sense, maybe suicidal, maybe in a home of physical or drug abuse, parents who aren't emotinally avaiable, don't fit in at school... The road to the path isn't typically pleasant for many people.  

This person finds there way to the forum and asks a question that is rocking them to the core, some new concept, it is a big deal to them.  And what they get back is a snarky "mmmmhhhhhh what is knowing?  how do you know you can know"  (I don't have the exact quote)   Not as much the paradoxical quip as how it is shared..   Maybe something like "hey have you heard this concept yet, what is knowing and how can you know"  "it is a pardox, crazy right, have you heard of that?"  "We can start from there"   humble, kind, supportive... 

From there is just noticed the word "knowledge or knowing" in the signature text which is another story.. 

I am sensitive about a young seeker, fragile and opening up..  

It like taking a young child to the edge of a giant cliff, they have never seen such heights, they are shaking, trembling, they have no idea what all these intense feeling are and the educated person tosses them over the edge while saying.. don't ever jump off the cliff...   That was pretty obvious.. And if it wasn't we could have had a heart to heart.. 

This might not be the forum for me, that is another possibility.  That is what I am feeling into at the moment.

Thanks for sharing... 

[Mu_]

2 hours ago, RevoCulture said:

@Mu_   This could be a good exercise for me..

I will try to strongman Shiva's point.. "mmhhh... what qualifies as "knowing" and how do you know for sure that you know something?"

In response to: paraphrase  Is it better to know or not know...

I would say that what Shiva is saying is, how can you really know that you actually know anything?  How do you confirm that you are established in base reality?  If you can't confirm that you are rooted and perceiving base or fundamental reality with a truthful clarity can you actually say that you know something?  If you sense of reality is skewed and formatted within an illusion that acts as a barrier between you and reality what is it that you think you know?  From that place can you even define knowing or what it would be?  What is knowing?

I am totally on board with what is being expressed. 

Before I continue would you say that I have a predominately clear interpretation of what is being expressed?  Shared within my own words of course but attempting to connect.. 

 

Hmmmm, honestly and I'm not sure exactly what her background beliefs were when asking the question. 

But what you just shared is very deep and is something I wouldn't mind building off of if you don't mind.  Are these your beliefs about knowing?  Or some new insights you had while taking it upon yourself to dissect into strongmanings Shiva's believed point?

The paragraph you posted is in line with a way of looking into mind structure that I've been slowly trying to articulate myself and feeling into how maybe it could be used in some potential teaching I may offer on top of what I already do.

If you really really really let in what you just typed, wouldn't this notion that you arrived at towards the end of your paragraph, also include knowledge/the idea of someone such as a "you" or "I" making decisions or not making decisions.  Wouldn't this include also notions or idea's of a God in or out there or as oneself.  If you really let that in, whats really left.....  If there's no original knowledge to build a premise from, which includes a notion of God (including notions of being inside or outside or One), includes notions of an individual you typing now through volition and idea's coming solely from some independent creation your doing, some notion of God being the guider of such actions.  Also includes notions of an individual you on something called a solid planet within a supposed universe.  Includes idea's such as Other people and things, includes fundamental beliefs such as Ego and your Ego and Mind and your mind and your thoughts, again notions, as you've said that have no current proven knowledge to build such notions from. 

Does letting in such notions creating a silencing force or does thoughts emotions and chaos ensue?

 

[RevoCulture]

@Serotoninluv Thanks for being more direct in your offering, applying it to me more specifically.  I hold the same values as you do as well.  If you were here we could be with one another.  I sit often and enjoying sharing that meditative space when the occasion arises.  

My psychedelic experiences are plentiful and without question one of strongest proponents of my perception.  Again, I am with you, excellent advise.

When it comes to a forum I will probably continue to use words as a form of interaction with others.  I, personally, marvel at a person attempt and skill at bringing non-verbal non-intellectual understanding into the realm of communication.  How will they attempt the impossible?  I will probably continue to do this but noted... Maybe my experience outside of the intellect is limited and I need to be more open to that reality.  Blessings.. 

[Mu_]

6 minutes ago, RevoCulture said:

@Mu_ @Shiva

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  Always welcome.   I just lost my write up looking for Shiva's link hit SerotoninLuv's page... See if I can summarize once again..

Truth on both side here, undoubtedly.  I will admit at the end there I said "It is a weak form of discourse but we all offer what we have.."  Not necessary.. My apologies..  I do tend to see lots of currents flowing through things.. my apologies for that, what is common for me is hypersenstive to others.. no better or worse just what it is.. that is on me for not doing a better job building a base for communication.. 

I am new to the forum and have been getting a feel for it, how and if I wish to proceed.  The illusive paradoxical quips when presented a particular way do stimulate a reaction, that I am responsible for.

I have been reading what appears to be a new seekers expressing questions that are easy targets for paradoxical quips.  My connection is in the feeling of being an new seeker where reality is being ripped down, nothing makes sense, maybe suicidal, maybe in a home of physical or drug abuse, parents who aren't emotinally avaiable, don't fit in at school... The road to the path isn't typically pleasant for many people.  

This person finds there way to the forum and asks a question that is rocking them to the core, some new concept, it is a big deal to them.  And what they get back is a snarky "mmmmhhhhhh what is knowing?  how do you know you can know"  (I don't have the exact quote)   Not as much the paradoxical quip as how it is shared..   Maybe something like "hey have you heard this concept yet, what is knowing and how can you know"  "it is a pardox, crazy right, have you heard of that?"  "We can start from there"   humble, kind, supportive... 

From there is just noticed the word "knowledge or knowing" in the signature text which is another story.. 

I am sensitive about a young seeker, fragile and opening up..  

It like taking a young child to the edge of a giant cliff, they have never seen such heights, they are shaking, trembling, they have no idea what all these intense feeling are and the educated person tosses them over the edge while saying.. don't ever jump off the cliff...   That was pretty obvious.. And if it wasn't we could have had a heart to heart.. 

This might not be the forum for me, that is another possibility.  That is what I am feeling into at the moment.

Thanks for sharing... 

I can feel you have some depth in what you say and your heart is in a good place here.  You honestly remind me of myself in a lot of ways.  While its past any importants to me at this point and perhaps Shiva, I did think you jumped the gun on your conclusions towards Shiva's reasonings.  But I can see that you wanted to protect someone who maybe as you saw it was vulnerable and needed a response more heartfelt, and to that I say thank you, this is to be admired.  Look forward to more of what you may have to share.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

Not knowing intellectually is more honest than knowing intellectually, but experientially they both are the same, you can not know something experientially with total honesty but also have a genuine, authentic insight into something experientially which is as honest as it gets. 

[RevoCulture]

5 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

Hmmmm, honestly and I'm not sure exactly what her background beliefs were when asking the question. 

But what you just shared is very deep and is something I wouldn't mind building off of if you don't mind.  Are these your beliefs about knowing?  Or some new insights you had while taking it upon yourself to dissect into strongmanings Shiva's believed point?

The paragraph you posted is in line with a way of looking into mind structure that I've been slowly trying to articulate myself and feeling into how maybe it could be used in some potential teaching I may offer on top of what I already do.

If you really really really let in what you just typed, wouldn't this notion that you arrived at towards the end of your paragraph, also include knowledge/the idea of someone such as a "you" or "I" making decisions or not making decisions.  Wouldn't this include also notions or idea's of a God in or out there or as oneself.  If you really let that in, whats really left.....  If there's no original knowledge to build a premise from, which includes a notion of God (including notions of being inside or outside or One), includes notions of an individual you typing now through volition and idea's coming solely from some independent creation your doing, some notion of God being the guider of such actions.  Also includes notions of an individual you on something called a solid planet within a supposed universe.  Includes idea's such as Other people and things, includes fundamental beliefs such as Ego and your Ego and Mind and your mind and your thoughts, again notions, as you've said that have no current proven knowledge to build such notions from. 

Does letting in such notions creating a silencing force or does thoughts emotions and chaos ensue?

 

@Mu_   Banging hommie... Nice write up.. Loved it.. 

You are welcome to build off it.  Enjoy.  

In response to your paragraph I would say something like this...  Are we conditioned to find a point in time, to establish a definition, what is the singular answer, what is the definition that is clear and precise without variability or dimension?   It must be this or that?

What if it isn't about anyone of them in your write up?  What if it is about all of them simultaneously operating, separate but as one?  Interwoven and fully functional in some way that allows them to be separate and one depending on where you are perceiving from?  Ultimately consciousness is cycling through the states and stages.. At once there is absolute unity and division and everything in between.

It is the Great Nest.   Is it possible we have been conditioned to seek finality and answers that are exclusive not inclusive.  Does that make sense?

[Forestluv]

@RevoCulture Perhaps we are more a like than I originally noticed. You’ve got me curious, which is good space. I can go into a lot of different perceptual states of consciousness.