help me with this mathmatical proof?

[K VIL]

i have a question in mind and want to answer it on my own. where do i start? am i on the right track?

My question is:

Is not knowing more honest than knowing?

 

[kieranperez]

Yes.

Here's a good question... how is knowing and not-knowing the same? 

If you contemplate for example who you are and it's a real honest inquiry (rather than some mechanical technique), notice how you actually honestly don't know anything because all knowing is predicated upon the illusion that there is a separate "I" who knows that. 

Not-Knowing and Absolute Knowing are the same. 

[4201]

3 hours ago, kieranperez said:

Not-Knowing and Absolute Knowing are the same. 

How do you know??? 

[K VIL]

@kieranperez preciate ya. im not much of a contemplater lol this is hard work.

[Mu_]

6 hours ago, K VIL said:

i have a question in mind and want to answer it on my own. where do i start? am i on the right track?

My question is:

Is not knowing more honest than knowing?

 

I use to think so, but if you realize you don't know who or what you are, then can you really say you know that you dont know?  Really let that in for a moment.

[Angelite]

You know when you know. You don't know when you don't know. 

You can only know what you already know.

You won't know what you don't know. 

...

(Regardless of not knowing & knowing, if you are dishonest, it would still be a fake not knowing & knowing.)

 

Keyword : K n o w l e d g e

[RevoCulture]

Would seem like absolute knowing would be on one side and absolute not knowing would be on the other... (technically there might be some infinitesimal percentage to stay out of the unified field, close to absolute lets say)...  They are both expressions of life and every step in between... Isn't life in the full scope amazing, all the aspects that make it what it is, aren't they amazing?   

I like to think that everything is amazing... and then... there is my ego experience and the challenges it has to go through and it wants to base value off from what something does for me, how it serves me, how it makes me feel.. which is totally cool.. no worries.. but it often skews my sense of value..

Feel like I am in a space where I won't really no everything and I can't unknow what I know... so I am kinda going to have to keep moving forward... cause I can always learn more... which is sometimes a matter of unlearning... oh like you cosmic jokester.. got me again..  

[RevoCulture]

@Shiva   Your tag line says "knowing is not enough. We must apply."     You must have a definition of knowing, yes?  or is the tag meaningless to you and just looks cool maybe?

[archi]

13 hours ago, K VIL said:

i have a question in mind and want to answer it on my own. where do i start? am i on the right track?

My question is:

Is not knowing more honest than knowing?

 

It depends how "honest" - "you" - "are". 

One you do not know one should be are stuck there,

if not you are cheating yourself 

once you get yourself into black hole you won't go out that easily  

one needs to wait ages to evaporate,

it is the same thing.

[RevoCulture]

@Shiva   The starting point our your tag is knowledge, which requires a definition to even begin walking through the steps.  You must define what knowledge is to even considering if it is 1) good enough and 2) how you will apply.

Your comment to @K VIL , which starts out snarky and rude by some people's standards is.. "mmhhh... what qualifies as "knowing" and how do you know for sure that you know something?"    

And now are you trying to back peddle away from owning your actions by redirecting to "this is a different topic"....  Sorry, we all see through.. and.. its ok you are human and you get caught up like all of us.  Its ok to admit it.. 

 

 

[RevoCulture]

@Shiva  We are faced with one of two options.   1) you don't have the mental capacity to recognize what couldn't be more clear  or 2) your spiritual pride is so high that it won't allow you to acknowledge what is so clear.

What we know is.. It is clear.

Always a classy ego cover up move, offer a sassy comment back at the person who is pointing something out like "but next time I can append a glossary to my signature text if that helps."  As if the issue is a glossary that is needed to understand the definition and NOT in the person questioning another person's ability to define knowledge which sits in direct conflict with sensitive ego person's signature text saying I know what knowledge is.  The paradox & irony game will come back and devour you every time, you can't wield it as a tool to cut other people down and come out ahead. 

What would help is some humility and honesty.  In this forum we need to keep each other honest and humble and when snarky Zen quips are being thrown out that don't do much of anything for anybody with the exception of the ego inflation it provides to the person who thinks "whoa, I just nailed that one, look at the paradoxical skills and spiritual illumination I used", then we should be stepping up and questioning the people using them.  

You are probably just in that stage, we all go through it.  And I have notice  A LOT of it in this forum.  It makes me laugh, I remember those days and I wish I would have had someone assist me through that phase a little faster.    

All good.  

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by RevoCulture

[RevoCulture]

@Shiva I think this is your third reply and not one has attempted to address what has been said.   Another classic move, deny, deny, deny, don't acknowledge, it will eventually go away....   Knowing isn't enough, we must apply.  When we see our error it isn't enough, we need to own it, we must apply ourselves.  

When you get a chance maybe do @K VIL  a kindness and offer that definition of knowledge you have in your signature text so he can reevaluate your comment about how he can't know what it is... obviously you do.  

we are all in this together.. my interest is in keeping things honest and fair.  

Edited January 19, 2020 by RevoCulture

[RevoCulture]

@Shiva   I am basically typing what has been typed before but if you are truly interested.. 

This is your comment to the thread topic   "mmhhh... what qualifies as "knowing" and how do you know for sure that you know something?"

This is your signature text:

Knowing is not enough. We must apply.
Willing is not enough. We must do. 

In your message you are doing what, unfortunately, others do and making this zen like quip... this paradoxical point..   "how can YOU know "knowledge, it can't be known and on and on"     It is a weak form of discourse but we all offer what we have..

So you signature text claims that you know what "knowledge" is or at least have defined idea and from that position the rest of the "we must apply etc is carried forward..."...   so you have a definition of knowledge because you are smart and the topic starter is being questioned by you as to their ability to know... 

There is no humility, no honor, no sensitivity, no kindness, no attempt at dialogue.  Sad.  

Edited January 19, 2020 by RevoCulture

[Angelite]

11 hours ago, Angelite said:

Keyword : K n o w l e d g e

K n o w l e d g e   &   A c t i o n

[Angelite]

6 hours ago, Shiva said:

mmhhh... what qualifies as "knowing" and how do you know for sure that you know something?

Knowing is know. Nothing more & nothing less. You simply know. Without a reason or a something. 

It's either you know or you don't know. 

...

I have always know that knowledge is to be applied. But today, there is this book. 

Balance in Action by Al-Ghazali. I don't think it was translated to English. I think it contains everything. It's a small book. But a good one. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Angelite

[Mu_]

12 hours ago, RevoCulture said:

@Shiva   I am basically typing what has been typed before but if you are truly interested.. 

This is your comment to the thread topic   "mmhhh... what qualifies as "knowing" and how do you know for sure that you know something?"

This is your signature text:

Knowing is not enough. We must apply.
Willing is not enough. We must do. 

In your message you are doing what, unfortunately, others do and making this zen like quip... this paradoxical point..   "how can YOU know "knowledge, it can't be known and on and on"     It is a weak form of discourse but we all offer what we have..

So you signature text claims that you know what "knowledge" is or at least have defined idea and from that position the rest of the "we must apply etc is carried forward..."...   so you have a definition of knowledge because you are smart and the topic starter is being questioned by you as to their ability to know... 

There is no humility, no honor, no sensitivity, no kindness, no attempt at dialogue.  Sad.  

Sorry man but you seem so off base with your accusations on this one.  I've read through your little interaction and you've seemed to have made up a bunch of stuff that wasn't said and interpreted certain actions to mean things that you just assumed.  If your truly the spiritual refined one you seem to insinuate in your past replies this is a perfect time to take a look at yourself in what took place here and maybe grow. 

[RevoCulture]

@Mu_ I welcome insights for sure.  I am a work in progress.  One thing that helps is when people dig in and break things down, like explain what they see.  

"you made stuff up" doesn't give me much to go on.

If you say something like shiva's comment on how do you know you knowing because what determines know... correlates with this line of thinking and attaches to this and his signature text about knowing doesn't relate to the knowing being spoken of because....

That would give me something to consider but to be honest, you made stuff up or assumed doesn't... 

Safe space, open discussion.. 

[RevoCulture]

@Mu_   This could be a good exercise for me..

I will try to strongman Shiva's point.. "mmhhh... what qualifies as "knowing" and how do you know for sure that you know something?"

In response to: paraphrase  Is it better to know or not know...

I would say that what Shiva is saying is, how can you really know that you actually know anything?  How do you confirm that you are established in base reality?  If you can't confirm that you are rooted and perceiving base or fundamental reality with a truthful clarity can you actually say that you know something?  If you sense of reality is skewed and formatted within an illusion that acts as a barrier between you and reality what is it that you think you know?  From that place can you even define knowing or what it would be?  What is knowing?

I am totally on board with what is being expressed. 

Before I continue would you say that I have a predominately clear interpretation of what is being expressed?  Shared within my own words of course but attempting to connect.. 

 

[Forestluv]

38 minutes ago, RevoCulture said:

I welcome insights for sure.  I am a work in progress.  One thing that helps is when people dig in and break things down, like explain what they see

If you welcome insights. . .A couple observations: there has been the same dynamic with five different users on the forum. These users have been doing consciousness work for many years. Perhaps they are seeing something you are not. 

Do you want to see what they all are pointing to? If so you would need to change your orientation. Notice how you said you welcome insights and you are a work in progress and then you define how those insights should be delivered to you within an intellectual framework you are satisfied with. Humility and openness can be important to allow space for insights. If I wanted to learn Spanish, yet told the teacher how to speak Spanish, I will not learn and grow very much. 

I went through a similar dynamic as a trained scientist. I would question someone about metaphysics, yet I wanted evidence and I would only accept physical evidence and logic. I wanted to set the structure of the dialog. This is a form of narrative control in the mind that kept me contracted within a scientific paradigm. I had to realize that I was missing something and be open to learning with however those insights arose. When I joined the forum there were several users that were trying to point to my attachment to materialism and intellect. I realized I was mussing something and got really curious. One of the keys for me was letting go of my desire for a certain form of evidence. This was challenging to me because my mind is very conceptual. 

[RevoCulture]

@Serotoninluv  Thanks for communicating again.. you went silent and didn't complete our prior conversation.  

If you want to be openly truthful and honest across the board for all participants in the forum you are going to find dynamics abound.  This isn't a secret.  If we were to review your posts we will find "dynamics" as well.   

If and when you pull out the totality of my posts and review them, they will paint a picture, one that is weighted towards support and positivity and yes there will be a few moments where I engage with people that isn't all rainbows and unicorns... but..

when you look at the name calling, the swearing, the vulgar responses of some (which I personally understand from particular perspective), the passive aggressive etc.... I tend to stay away from swearing at people and using vulgar language.  

It is part of the process and we all are in the mix.. We are doing what we can with what we have.  

It seem you offer plenty of responses that are counter to what is being expressed, does that mean you are a common denominator, yes it does.  I support you in your attempt to convey and work with what you have.  

I find it hard that you don't understand why I would rather have detail than "your wrong" , "your assuming", "you don't get it"  sorry but those aren't helpful.  What is helpful is insight.   Sad as such a prominent figure you don't understand that.   

You have definitely demonstrated particular energy towards me.. and it is interesting that you find it to be acceptable in an unspoken defensible position but who I am isn't...   Blessings.. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by RevoCulture