Free will rant

[RevoCulture]

@Stakres  Nice post.. I have enjoyed other material of his...  he has some on depression too I think..  going to listen to the one you posted.. thanks again.. 

 

[RevoCulture]

@Stakres  I remember him having a strong behaviorist background, a material reductionist...   question for your reflection... when he says that there is no free will and that there is no reason to hate and that we need to forgive more... is that his desire for free will and choice in conflict with no free will...  if life is deterministic and governed by biology and we have no choice.. and to turn around and so straight face say that since this is true we need to make the *choice to not hate and practice forgiveness....   isn't that in conflict within itself?    Naturally I am all for less hate and more forgiveness but... if he says we need to... isn't that a choice then and not a function of reductionist behavioral action?    

*choice I added for emphasis

Thanks again.. i want him to be in my family.. or my friend.. he is so sweet and comfortable.. 

Edited January 18, 2020 by RevoCulture

[Stakres]

@RevoCulture  As I understood it, it's his ideal. It would be great if more people would not hate, forgive and accept others as they are.

It feels like we have a choice (I can lift my right hand or I can think of an elephant), but ultimately those are determined by what happened me and which environment I'm in. However it doesn't mean that I can go around doing stupid things.

In a way, it is a choice to not hate, forgive and accept others. I can try to be more accepting and work on it over time.

On the other hand, it's hard, and it's not an easy choice. Just like quitting an addiction, it's really hard to actually implement

[RevoCulture]

@Stakres   There is a solid body of work from my limited understanding, part of where this deterministic line of thinking is rooted, that says they can with high accuracy tell you what hand you are going to lift before "you" know it.   

You can choose to lift your right hand but in a measurable about of time the decision was made before "you" made it.   

I was listening to the audio for a book on habits and they were testing chimps on behavior and it starts to head down this line of thinking as well.

For me, as an uneducated student of advanced science, they question is if life is only material and we can take a reducationist approach then this is what it is. I am interested in truth not in a particular outcome.  But, if life has others components to it, such as life isn't driven and determined solely by the material plane, then maybe reality is 100% determined by the material reductionist understanding.  

Fun to kick around... Thanks for playing.. 

Addictions.. whoa.. those are not as fun to kick around.. tough beasts... 

[SoonHei]

On 18/01/2020 at 11:24 AM, purerogue said:

System is in place to put dangerous people in jail, does not really matter if they have free will or no, what is important is to keep such people away so they do not harm others. What could be questioned though is to put him in jail,or mental health institute. 

+1

[Consept]

A question just to throw in, what decision have you made that has not been preceded in some way by something out of your control? 

The fact that your birth was out of your control is a bit of an easy one, you could say any decision after your birth came about because of your birth which was nothing to do with you. But delving deeper, your upbringing was not your choice but we know that has a major impact, your culture and yes your brain, at what point is it free will? What even has free will, your idea of who you are? 

[Stakres]

16 hours ago, RevoCulture said:

You can choose to lift your right hand but in a measurable about of time the decision was made before "you" made it.   

Exactly. That was my understanding too.

 

16 hours ago, RevoCulture said:

But, if life has others components to it, such as life isn't driven and determined solely by the material plane, then maybe reality is 100% determined by the material reductionist understanding.  

I agree. However so far there is very little evidence for some "spiritual ether". But if there will be research in the future backing that up, I will be all over it too.

 

12 hours ago, Consept said:

The fact that your birth was out of your control is a bit of an easy one, you could say any decision after your birth came about because of your birth which was nothing to do with you. But delving deeper, your upbringing was not your choice but we know that has a major impact, your culture and yes your brain, at what point is it free will? What even has free will, your idea of who you are? 

Exactly. We are being lived. All these influences shaped us and we had very little to no control over it, although it might seem that we chose it all. But in fact everything just happened.

[Chumbimba]

The psychology of mans possible evolution by Ouspensky says.

“Man cannot move, think or speak of his own accord. He is a marionette pulled here and there by invisible strings”

 

[RevoCulture]

9 hours ago, Stakres said:

I agree. However so far there is very little evidence for some "spiritual ether". But if there will be research in the future backing that up, I will be all over it too.

@Consept

Have you read any Rupert Sheldrake - the idea of morphogenic fields?   Donald Hoffman is putting mathematics to consciousness too, The Case Against Reality..

I believe they say we are familiar with like 4% of matter in the universe, leaving 96% as dark matter?  

Tough looking for something non-material with a material science.  I a pro science, no question. 

At the same time is meditation science, do psychedelic experiences have credibility as research?

I find it interesting look back at the attitude of science and how something ins't real until verified by science.  How many "real" truths have turned out to be BS that were verified.  How many things were ridiculed or shamed and then became real and legitimate.  Maybe things that carry weight that aren't in the scientific club deserve some credibility and things that are in maybe should still carry some skepticism?

  

 

[Consept]

@RevoCulture

I haven't read it but I can agree with us knowing only 4% of the universe, its probably less than that tbh. 

One of the issues with science is that it by definition has to have an observer of an event who would then write down or quantify what's being observed. For the person who reads what they've done it's a second hand observation it's not direct experience. So for example if I investigate an apple and let's say you've never tasted an apple before, I could write a book on the moisture of it, I could tell you there's however many millions of atoms in it and they vibrate at a certain speed, I could say there's acids and proteins and whatever else in it. Now I still haven't tasted the apple myself and you haven't you just know the science of it from me, so can we say we really 'know' the apple? 

If either of us taste it we then have direct experience of it, because its no longer in concepts. I think this is the same as with life we learn the mechanics of it we but we don't really live the direct experience of it 

[RevoCulture]

@Consept

I like to think the issues with science are also the strengths, it is when we ask it to be something that it isn't that the problems arise.

I like the practice of observation when it is quantifiable and repeatable, establishing a sense of truth through consistency with measurement.  

Science has already been able to show us how we, regardless of our desire or commitment, do not experience reality as it is.  The table is solid, no actually it is predominately empty space.

You will see me continue to beat a drum for the celebration of opposites, how they complete one another.  I value a diverse and competing set of approaches where some seek to define the approach, a single perspective that answers every potential.  

Thanks for your insight, much appreciated!

 

[Consept]

I agree, science is definitely useful, I was just pointing out the limitations. But you do need every outlook to get to some kind of truth 

[RevoCulture]

@Consept   Totally how I was receiving your insight.  Much appreciated.  Thanks for sharing..