Overcoming stage green ego

[Bno]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

My problem with Jimmy Dore is that I feel he's too aggressive. It's like red meat for progressives but it won't work to build a coalition. Being a rabid dog is not a good way to go. Bernie is very progressive but he's not so rabid and obnoxious about it, which allows him to attract people who normally wouldn't call themselves progressives or socialists or whatever.

This is a cherry-picked perspective that Sam Sedar illustrates to his viewers. This is unfair to the overall person Jimmy Dore is, especially his importance and inspiration he gives people in this movement.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Bno

[purerogue]

Can you elaborate on your logic please, how him disagreeing with someone who is black is subconscious bias toward black? 

I seriously want to see how you are not racist , but your every sentence stinks of it, it seems there is no such thought in your head that disagreeing does not imply  subconscious bias toward race, can you elaborate on your thought process.

Although I agree that certain human needs certain approach as they might not feel as comfortable  and so on, but you are asking for impossible here, 

you are basically asking for all whites to progress 1000 years into spiritual development, to be able to make best decision for each situation. 

[Forestluv]

11 hours ago, purerogue said:

I understand what you mean, but such finger pointing is reason why you have conflicts, one side makes claims about how easy life is for another, or how one side is bad, making statements like that just leads to new forms of movements that want to be understood while bashing other side that wants to be understood.

No you don’t understand what I mean. I don’t mean finger pointing, one side claiming how easy life is for another, how one side is bad. That is meaning you have created, not me. Those are statements you made not me.

If you want to understand what I’m pointing at, you would need to set down your the current paradigm you hold. As I said, I’m not saying you are wrong. From a certain perspective you are right. Yet you will not be able to expand while holding tightly to that perspective. If you could transition into becoming a minority -  be it black, female, transgender, gay - you would have a very different relationship with reality and your white, male, straight privileges would be revealed in a way you cannot currently see. 

One thing you are missing is disproportionate power dynamics. Much of what you say involves a form of “both-side-ism”. You are equalizing hardships on both sides and that each side simply finger points at the other. There is some truth to this, yet it misses the part about disproportionate power and privilege. For me, I needed to go live with people of color in poverty-stricken parts of the world to fully get this. For poc, this is obvious because they have to bear the brunt of the inequality. They have to deal with it everyday. You don’t understand what it’s like to face and absorb racial micro-aggression everyday of your life. You don’t understand what it’s like to not know when the big ugly racist aggression will rear its head at you. This takes a physical and mental toll on the body. Even scientific studies have shown disproportionate mental and physical effects. Racism is the #1 health risk for pregnant women and her child. Not obesity, not lack of education, not poverty: the mental and physical tolls of racism. You don’t know what this is like and a mentality of “Well, there is also reverse racism” or “we all have our own hardships in life” will not help you understand this. Yet you have the privilege of not having to understand what it’s like. You have the privilege of not even having to imagine what it’s like living like this. If you want to get a sense of what it’s like - go live with poc in a poverty-stricken community, go live in a poor foreign village in which you are the only white person. Put yourself in an environment in which you are subjected to racism and racial distress everyday. Date a black woman in a racist area so that you feel the racist brunt and then realize “omg, so that’s what it’s like.” And you look at the person and say “you have to deal with this everyday?”. That type of thing will lead to greater understanding. Not thought stories about how “we all have hardships, it’s no good pointing fingers. That would just tear us apart”. If you want to deepen your understanding go find out what it’s actually like. I have done all the things I wrote above. I walked my talk. From my POV, you are contracted within a perspective and are missing a lot.

11 hours ago, purerogue said:

You do not fight problem by creating more hate and that is what you are doing by making such statements. If you think that someone who has had his own problems, his own experience will take liking to shaming on how he is privileged just because he is white and straight you are wrong, you will create deep hate for opposing side, as you will create deep hate against white , straight people from other side that will be made to generalize people like that.

Again, this is your interpretation that is going through your filter. This is not at all what I am saying or what I mean. Understanding the experience and perspective of another is not hate, it is love. When I sat down with a man in the streets of Honduras, the tears that filled my eyes were not tears of hate, they were tears of love. It was understanding him, not intellectually - emotionally, empathically, lovingly. I understood him holistically and he knew it. That tearful hug was love. . . .when my black gf and I escaped a racist attack and I sat in the car shaking and looked at her and said “this is racism. I understand what you mean now” - that is love. When I became aware of racist micro-agressions that she was subjected to, love arose. Understanding of another is love, not hate. For me, when I understand another and become another - love arises.

You are creating this stuff about shaming, not me. You are interpreting my words as shaming. You have no idea what my views on subconscious bias, privilege and shaming are. You have no idea how I speak about subconscious biases, privilege and shaming when I discuss shaming in my classes and on diversity committees. You are making it up and are way off the mark. Regarding subconscious biases, I think shaming is a major deterrent for understanding and growth. We need to allow safe space for someone to acknowledge and work through their subconscious biases. As I became aware of my subconscious biases, safe space was really important. If I became aware of one of my subconscious biases and I was shamed and stigmatized for it, I would have repressed it. Rather, I had a supportive safe environment. There were times, I went to a poc colleague or a poc gf  and said “I’m realizing something that was conditioned into me that I want to work through”. For example, I grew up in a predominately white community. My parents would subtly mock the speaking style and mannerisms of poor black people. If I said something liked “Imma gonna go to the movies”. My parents would get very upset. They would sternly correct me and say “you don’t want to sound like them”. They would shame me for speaking like them. As a child, this was conditioned into me. There is something wrong with them. I don’t want to sound like them. Their way of speaking is stupid and I will look bad. Certain speaking mannerisms would go through a subconscious filter in my mind of being less educated, less intelligent, stupid. I did not consciously think this, it was subconscious throughout most of my adult life. When I was learning Spanish, I was obsessed with getting the grammar and pronunciation correct. When I was living in Central America, I was obsessed with speaking correctly because subconsciously I didn’t want to sound like them. However, I was now them. I knew what it was like to be the recipient of this type of judgement. Not intellectually, through direct experience. It changed the way I saw others. This is connection, this is love. No one shamed me for it. Rather, poc helped me through it - again through love. . . . I am not shaming subconscious biases. I know what that feels like and I don’t want to make others feel like that. I would rather empower people to realize, acknowledge, work through and become free of their subconscious racial and gender biases. Life becomes so much richer. And the best way I’ve seen is through immersing one’s self into another that is different and truly understanding what that life experience is like. A white person may say “well what about me and other white people? Why don’t others do the same and understand me/us? We all have hardships”. Yet from the perspective of an individual, this is a block. A white male already understands their experience and perspective as a white male. They have that part down. They are missing the understanding from a poc and woman. It would be like me saying “English is an important language too. People should learn English. Everyone has their own language”. This is true, yet I already speak English. If I want to expand and learn Spanish, I cannot do so by being contracted within English. I have to set aside my English and ask “what’s speaking Spanish like”. Then I can learn from a Spanish-speaker - without calling out their English deficiencies. 

2 hours ago, purerogue said:

I seriously want to see how you are not racist , but your every sentence stinks of it, it seems there is no such thought in your head that disagreeing does not imply  subconscious bias toward race, can you elaborate on your thought process.

This is not the mindset of a mind that seriously wants to understand, experience, see, and become the other. This is a mind contracted into their view and wanting to defend and maintain that view through debate and wanting to be right. If this is your goal, great. If your goal is to expand and deepen your understanding beyond your self construct via intellectual, emotional and empathic understanding - then this mindset won’t get you very far.

[doom]

On 1/19/2020 at 8:07 AM, Derek White said:

White men aren't the only ones that get blamed. Don't Muslim men get blamed? Don't Indian men get blamed? Chinese? Hindus? Japanese? Jews? First nations people? Blacks? Everyone has collective guilt. 

Yet there are clear biases, someone is racist towards Jews? It's easily excused, but one slip up AKA saying the N word and they're attacked, this literally happened with pewdiepie.

[purerogue]

You did not understand me at all, just to stuck in your emotions, my post was about human general reaction toward such approach.

You do not know anything about me, or where I was born , it might come as surprise to you, but white people live in way more countries then USA are you well informed about how white people live in different parts of world?

I can tell you few stories too, just to show how silly your compromising are  , about white males, who grew up in dysfunctional families, in  worse poverty then you have in USA, not being able to afford anything they had to make their living by stealing, being looked down like they are trash by everyone and being told to anyone that comes into contact with them to stay away from them, not bad people, just desperate circumstances, years passed but nothing could change constant physical and psychological abuse by everyone around them pushed them to limit to commit worst of crime , killing in attempt to get money from old lady, Now the time I saw both of them 3 years ago they were out from prison, one was completely mentally damaged,like beaten dog, other had just lost his brother who committed suicide, completely depressed about life, last year I visited one who lost brother committed suicide too . 

Edited January 20, 2020 by purerogue

[Apparition of Jack]

@purerogue If you’ve had so much suffering put upon  due to circumstances outside of your control (and I truly feel for you, what you’ve been through sounds awful), why would you dismiss the suffering of others put upon them by circumstances outside of their control?

As someone from a fairly well off background, I can’t personally understand what it’s like to come from such a place of poverty, so when you speak of your experiences dealing with it I will naturally listen to what you have to say so that I can understand better. So when someone from a black or other POC background tells you their experiences and how it’s caused them suffering, wouldn’t it only make sense to listen to what they have to say, since you have no personal experience of it? Listening is an infinite resource, and it’s one of the most powerful tools we have for self-development.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Apparition of Jack

[purerogue]

Just now, Apparition of Jack said:

@purerogue If you’ve had so much suffering put upon  due to circumstances outside of your control (and I truly feel for you, what you’ve been through sounds awful), why would you dismiss the suffering of others put upon them by circumstances outside of their control?

As someone from a fairly well off background, I can’t personally understand what it’s like to come from such a place of poverty, so when you speak of your experiences dealing with it I will naturally listen to what you have to say. So when someone from a black or other POC background tells you their experiences and how it’s caused them suffering, wouldn’t it only make sense to listen to what they have to say, since you have no personal experience of it? Listening is an infinite resource, and it’s one of the most powerful tools we have for self-development.

It is not my story, but story of people I knew and it seems you did not read my comments, I am not disapproving people suffering, on contrary. 

 

[Apparition of Jack]

@purerogue My apologies, I didn’t read correctly. 
 

My point still stands though, acknowledging the suffering that is unique to minorities doesn’t somehow discredit the suffering of white people.No one in their right mind would say that your friends stories are unimportant just because minorities suffer in a different way.

Put it this way - you might have a friend who becomes paralysed and has to live in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, but then have another friend who has to live in a wheelchair and is diagnosed with cancer. Would you then say your first friend’s suffering is unimportant? Would you stop caring about that friend? Of course not. You would still care deeply about them and do whatever you could for them. They are still in a terrible situation relative to most healthy people, and will have a lot of trials as a result. But you would also acknowledge the suffering of your second friend, including the suffering unique to him. Your ability to care about different people isn’t limited to “how bad” they have it - compassion is also an unlimited resource. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Apparition of Jack

[purerogue]

Just now, Apparition of Jack said:

@purerogue My apologies, I didn’t read correctly. 
 

My point still stands though, acknowledging the suffering that is unique to minorities doesn’t somehow discredit the suffering of white people.No one in their right mind would say that your friends stories are unimportant just because minorities suffer in a different way.

Put it this way - you might have a friend who becomes paralysed and has to live in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, but then have another friend who has to live in a wheelchair and is diagnosed with cancer. Would you then say your first friend’s suffering is unimportant? Would you stop caring about that friend? Of course not. But you would also acknowledge the suffering of your second friend, including the suffering unique to him. Your ability to care about different people isn’t limited to “how bad” they have it - compassion is also an unlimited resource. 

I know, everyone deserves compassion, I just think that form on how it gets delivered is bad, why you need to point fingers, to my knowledge every race, every gender can have same problems, with some minor differences. Using statements like white male privilege is just going to make people look other way, if you want to teach something then maybe just teach general compassion by showing examples from all sides, No need to generalize on group as evil, it is exact reason why there is such hate. 

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, purerogue said:

I can tell you few stories too, just to show how silly your compromising are  , about white males, who grew up in dysfunctional families, in  worse poverty then you have in USA, not being able to afford anything they had to make their living by stealing, being looked down like they are trash by everyone and being told to anyone that comes into contact with them to stay away from them, not bad people, just desperate circumstances, years passed but nothing could change constant physical and psychological abuse by everyone around them pushed them to limit to commit worst of crime , killing in attempt to get money from old lady, Now the time I saw both of them 3 years ago they were out from prison, one was completely mentally damaged,like beaten dog, other had just lost his brother, completely depressed about life, last year I visited one of them committed suicide. 

I’m not an expert if social dynamics in the UK, yet I do have some experience. I’ve traveled to dozens of foreign countries, many of which were predominantly white. I currently live in a poor community that is about 50% black and 50% white. The school system has collapsed, unemployment is about 50%.  Crime, abuse, alcoholism and drug  addiction is high. I’ve volunteered with alcoholics, drug addicts, prison system and psychiatric wards with people of various socio-economic and ethnic backgrounds. At the individual level, I don’t give higher priority to the suffering of one ethnicity over the other. If I’m in a hospital with a woman that just attempted suicide after years of abuse, my empathy and compassion is not influenced by the color of her skin. 

To me, what you are getting at is wealth inequality that leads to corruption, abuse of power and suffering. I see it everyday in my community. Being penniless is a major stressor, regardless of one’s ethnicity. Poverty and being on the edge of survival can contribute to mental illness and domestic violence. This is something we can all come together on. Economic justice is one of my highest values. And the ultra wealthy billionaires want the current system of economic injustice. Part of that game is to divide people along ethnic lines. Black vs brown vs white. The last thing they want is the poor and working classes to come together. I would place this economic class injustice as a higher priority than racial injustice. If we can move toward economic justice for all, a lot of the racial injustices will begin to survive. One source of racial tension is that so many people are poor and living paycheck to paycheck. In this hyper survival mode, racial differences het leveraged. 

Economic injustice is a major issue, yet that doesn’t erase cases of injustice that are disproportionate to black and brown  people. At a population level, their are injustices that disproportionately affect minorities. Those are not the only issues we should address, yet they are still issues to be addressed. For example, in most western countries, black and brown people have disproportionately less access to healthcare, education and upward mobility. Black and brown people are disproportionately impacted by racism. Does this mean that white people are never affected by low access to health care, education and upward mobility? Does this mean white people never face racism? Of course not. Yet does this mean we should neglect disproportionate power and oppression. We can address both.

This is one reason I resonate with Bernie so strongly. He understands both. He understands how wealth inequality and disproportionate wealth power structures negatively impact poor people of all ethnicities. And he understands how racism disproportionately affects people of certain races. And I like how his top priority is to go after wealth inequality. I think doing so will relieve a lot of underlying racial tensions. 

 

 

[purerogue]

I am not from UK, I am just living here now. 

It might be true in USA, but it is not case in UK, idk where you got that idea , you could just say that any immigrant, be it white, black, or brown has it harder, but none just wants to talk about white immigrant problems, it is not popular, none cares about them. 

Anyway health access problem has more to do with their horrible health system, but it is true that British people can get stuff done faster. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by purerogue

[Forestluv]

21 minutes ago, purerogue said:

I am not from UK, I am just living here now. 

It might be true in USA, but it is not case in UK, idk where you got that idea , you could just say that any immigrant, be it white, black, or brown has it harder, but none just wants to talk about white immigrant problems, it is not popular, none cares about them. 

I’ve been to the UK multiple times and I had certain privileges there as soon as I stepped off the plane - because I’m male, white, straight, educated etc. If I was a poor uneducated Guatemalan I would not have had those privileges in the UK. 

I’m not saying whites don’t have any issues and never face anything that is unfair. I am saying that the majority who have disproportionate power impose injustices on those that lack power. In most western countries, whites have disproportionate power and thus nonwhite minorities are disproportionately affected. 

Part of the problem in addressing inequality issues is resources. Pregnant black women have much higher rates of infant health complications and death. Part of this problem has to do with racism. Yet addressing this requires resources. Someone white may say “Why are we paying tax dollars to help pregnant black women? Why not invest that money in helping poor unemployed white men?”. Both are important, yet people tend to focus on the group they identify with. Black people tend to focus on black issues because that is their experience in life and there are certain burdens that come with that. White people tend to focus on issues that white people more. 

The reason I’m trying to highlight the poc perspective is that you already have the white perspective down. You are completely fluent with that perspective. 

There are times in which I try to offer a white perspective to poc. Not just white: a male perspective, straight perspective etc. As a white, straight male I know that experience well. Sometimes I share that with poc, lgbtq and women - sometimes it’s helpful. Yet I also try to listen to them and understand their experience from their perspective, not mine. 

[Leo Gura]

I don't think Tulsi is a good candidate. Not sure why some people think she's so progressive and good. Plus she has no chance of winning.

[doom]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

I’ve been to the UK multiple times and I had certain privileges there as soon as I stepped off the plane - because I’m male, white, straight, educated etc. If I was a poor uneducated Guatemalan I would not have had those privileges in the UK.

So what privilege did you have due to being male?

[purerogue]

13 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’ve been to the UK multiple times and I had certain privileges there as soon as I stepped off the plane - because I’m male, white, straight, educated etc. If I was a poor uneducated Guatemalan I would not have had those privileges in the UK. 

I’m not saying whites don’t have any issues and never face anything that is unfair. I am saying that the majority who have disproportionate power impose injustices on those that lack power. In most western countries, whites have disproportionate power and thus nonwhite minorities are disproportionately affected. 

Part of the problem in addressing inequality issues is resources. We may see that pregnant black women have severe issues with infant health complications and death. Part of this problem has to do with racism. Yet addressing this requires resources. Someone white may say “Why are we paying tax dollars to help pregnant black women? Why not invest that money in helping poor unemployed white men with depression?”. Both are important, yet people tend to focus on the group they identify with. Black people tend to focus on black issues because that is their experience in life and their a certain burdens that come with that. White people tend to focus on issues that white people more. 

Did you try to come here being straight, male, educated, Guatemalan, no, so I guess point not taken. 

Clearly had nothing to do with you being straight, quite sure that nothing to do with your skin color too, or  your gender, are you telling me that they have some radar that shows your sex? 

Beat this logic. 

 

I am not going to argue with you about situation here, you do not live in this country. 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by purerogue

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, doom said:

So what privilege did you have due to being male?

I didn’t have to worry about being sexually harassed. The thought never crossed my mind. I could travel to areas solo as a male that women would not feel safe traveling to solo. 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, purerogue said:

Clearly had nothing to do with you being straight, quite sure that nothing to do with your skin color too, or are you telling me that they have some radar that shows your sex? 

Beat this logic. 

Simple. Travel through a country as an openly straight male and then travel through the country as an openly gay male. You will have a very different experience and certain straight privileges will be revealed to you. 

Travel through a country as a white  man and then travel through the  country as a black man. See the difference. 

You don’t have the imagination, empathy or direct experience to be aware of this and to understand this. There are different levels of empathic understanding and some get quite radical. Yet one needs to have curiosity, space and openness to explore this. Attachment and immersion into one’s own identity is a major deterrent. 

[purerogue]

55 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I didn’t have to worry about being sexually harassed. The thought never crossed my mind. I was also able to travel to areas solo as a male that women would not feel safe traveling to solo. 

It is not safe for anyone,but you probably do feel safer being male, then again , males like to pick on males  quite a bit, so hard to say. if it is really safer, males clearly have to worry about physical abuse more.

Males simply do not worry about woman making a move as much , it is not like it does not happen, happen all the time , but  it is fair point , but is it really worse then being unattractive straight male, that can't get attention at all, I mean some people start to appreciate things when they lose them. 

49 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Simple. Travel through a country as an openly straight male and then travel through the country as an openly gay male. You will have a very different experience and certain straight privileges will be revealed to you. 

You don’t have the imagination, empathy or direct experience to be aware of this and to understand this. 

 

Again good point, but  I can make other forms for white, straight male, that will not be commonly accepted and people will have same , or worse reaction to me. 

So are we going to make some table with + and - to show every side of your being that gives you privilege, or disapproval attention from others. 

What are you getting at, you are just point to biases, while still making white,straight male as some super lucky category. 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by purerogue

[Forestluv]

@purerogue You clearly have the experience and perspective of white, straight males down. You are a fluent expert in this perspective. If we were to have a diversity panel and needed someone to represent the experience and perspective of a white, straight male - you would be highly qualified for this.  I am not arguing with what you are saying. It is true from this perspective and you do an excellent job explaining that perspective. 

What I am saying is that there is a lot being missed. A lot. From my pov, every time I try to show another perspective, you counter that with a white, male, straight perspective. You won’t expand understanding empathically with this mindset. If I was trying to learn Spanish and everytime the Spanish person spoke I replied “Yea but, what about English” and then spoke English, I will not learn Spanish. Similarly, if someone tried to speak an aspect of the female experience and I replied “Yea but, what about men?” and then spoke about men, I will not learn about the female experience and perspective. 

For example, when I mentioned how women feel unsafe traveling to certain areas that men wouldn’t worry about safety, you responded with a “yea but, what about men” and went back into maleness. There is nothing wrong with this orientation, yet it won’t allow space to expand and connect at deeper levels. Another orientation would be to drop the attachment and identification with maleness and allow insights to arise. A curiosity may arise “I wonder what that would be like. . .”. You may perceive things in new ways. What might it feel like to be afraid to enter an area because there is a chance of being raped? I don’t know. I’m a male and never had to deal with this. To some degree, I can imagine it. Last week while the sun was setting I entered our nature center and realized “If I was a woman, I wouldn’t feel safe right now”. I really imagined what that would be like. I saw a woman with a dog and realized the dog gave a her a higher sense of safety. . .  Another way is to talk to women about their experience. You mentioned that men also have safety issues about getting beat up by other men. Perhaps a women’s experience is similar. We could ask a woman “I’m curious what the experience of sexual assault anxiety is like. When I am in a bad part of town at night, I feel anxiety some guy may physically assault me. Is it kinda like that. How is it similar and different?”. I’ve had these types of conversations with women and have gotten really close to actually understanding and experiencing it. The key for me is to let go and really immerse myself into what they are saying. Imagine that you are an actor and will be playing a black man or woman in an upcoming movie. To do it well, you would need to let go of your own identity, surrender and fully immerse yourself into them to become them. 

Yet this type of empathic understanding might not  be important to you. It’s very important to me and it’s my primary orientation. What I’m writing doesn’t seem to resonate with you, so we might have different orientations in this area, which is fine. 

[Derek White]

@purerogue Do dwarfs have a disadvantage compared to average sized people? Or are you going to say what about dwarfs who are biased?