Overcoming stage green ego

[Apparition of Jack]

If white progressives are being dismissive  or patronising of the opinions of minorities, then odds are they're not fully Green and still have a Blue/Orange shadow. A lot of white progressives, especially if they come from well-to-do backgrounds, simply don't have the same lived in experience of oppression and discrimination that minority progressives do, and hence aren't as strongly committed to fighting injustice due to a lack of survival need to do so. Also, since they are from well-to-do white backgrounds, then they personally benefit from an unjust Orange/Blue system that affords them special privileges, even if they're aware that they benefit from this or not. They might be on board with redressing a lot of social ills, but not if it comes at the cost of their personal privileged position, which they might reflexively defend when they feel it being threatened. Think about the blind guy from Get Out if you've seen that movie.

This isn't to excuse their behaviour though, just to point out there's a cause for this attitude, which can be addressed if they're made aware of their own shadow and shown how they would benefit from taking a more holistic approach to social justice.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Apparition of Jack

[Bno]

@Leo Gura I think you could have a great video discussing what was said from the 47th min until about the 60th min. It'll also make people more conscious about some of the struggles you might not have realized about minorities even around some supposively stage green (or like @Apparition of Jack said, stage green with a blue/orange shadow) whites. 

Tbh, Leo, I know you may not be doing this on purpose, but you do try to make me feel guilty for "attacking progressives" even though I'm just trying to spread more conscious awareness and give constructive criticism. And rather than actually hear me out, it feels like my well thought out analyses are dismissed before you try to understand what I'm saying. It probably has to do with the way the governmental system currently operates doesn't hurt you nearly as much as it hurts me or other poor minorities. You're well off economically and you're not a minority. So some things fly over your head because it's not as much of an inconvenience for you, but it is for a lot of us. "Blue no matter who" doesn't fix our problems.

Telling people "this is the best we got" is like telling black people that during (and after) the Civil Rights that "this is the best we got."  That just because we got rid of slavery or got rid of Jim Crow, that they're shooting themselves in the foot if they try to make people more aware of so many of the injustices still happening to them because it creates too much infighting.

You have a major egoic blindspot that many of us have noticed and it seems like you're not doing anything about it.

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Bno

[Forestluv]

15 hours ago, purerogue said:

Then try to talk about subconscious biases with other races

I talk about subconscious biases with other races every week, it’s part of my job. At my institution, I work on a committee that includes several races - part of our work includes discussing subconscious biases at both the individual and institutional levels. As well, I interview job candidates of many races regarding diversity. One of the topics we discuss is subconscious biases. I also teach about subconscious biases in my courses and have discussions with students of a wide range of races. I’ve also been in relationships with women of other races and we discussed subconscious biases. And also my friends of other races, and psychologists of other races - the list goes on and on. It’s a topic I am curious about and desire to explore from different perspectives, including perspectives of other races. 
 

15 hours ago, purerogue said:

you are so far into this mentality that you are blame for all society problems that you should start to look at your own biases in this matter.

I’ve spent hundreds of hours looking at my own subconscious racial biases. I’ve taken various tests to identify my subconscious biases. I’ve attended professional workshops. I’ve lived immersed in communities of color in my own country and foreign countries. I’ve been in relationships with women of color and have had many conversations on this topic with a wide range of people, including poc, people living in poverty, people in the prison system, psychologists, neuroscientists and sociologists. 

I’ve found that there is a mental dynamic of “to be of blame for all of societies problems”. Blame and guilt are mechanisms that keep a person contracted. It prevents a person from going deeper. Blame is an external orientation and guilt is an internal orientation.  Both are contractions that prevent space and openness for realizations and growth.

15 hours ago, purerogue said:

Tell me more about my privileges, I want to know more about them so I can start to use thous coupons that are specifically my skin color based.  

This is a common defensive posture laced with sarcasm. This orientation allows a mind to protect and maintain a particular personal perception of their reality. 

Mindset is essential to allow space and openness for realizations that enlighten, deepen and expand. A mindset of “tell me about my privileges that I don’t have - privileges that you are just making up because you  believe you are to blame for all of society’s problems”  . . . is not a genuine, humble, open orientation that allows space.

If you could transition into a black transgender woman, your personal relationship with reality would be altered. How you navigate through life would be very different. Your experience, perceptions and interpretations toward your wellbeing and survival would be very different. Your current white, straight are not relative through the lens of a white, straight male oriented toward it’s well-being and survival. Those privileges would be revealed if you could transition to being a black transgender woman. Yet white, straight, males don’t have to acknowledge their own privilege or work through it, because they don’t have to bear the burden of not having those privileges. This itself is a privilege. 

[Raptorsin7]

3 hours ago, Bno said:

You have a major egoic blindspot that many of us have noticed and it seems like you're not doing anything about it.

Everyone has major egoic blind spots. Leo's just get magnified because he's the one who started this whole sha bang. Don't focus so much on Leo. I fell into the same trap trust me. I was a big Sam Harris fan and Leo criticized him and i got triggered. Then i started getting triggered by his posts thinking, this guys not that developed blah. Be careful focusing too much attention to Leo's growth here. What matters is your growth and views not Leo's. 

Imagine if there was no forum for genuine self help. And so tomorrow you started one. But you are at your level of development. How would you feel when feel people started questioning your growth, calling out your blind spots etc. Leo is just like us, trying to improve. 

I've been a similar spot as you with projection onto Leo, and it's worth reflecting on.

[Bno]

@Raptorsin7 I am aware of what you said and I am thankful of it. It doesn't mean I can't bring something he's overlooking to his awareness. Because that is also part my growth as well.

"Blue no matter who" is illogical to progress. Corporate Democrats work for the same people as corporate Republicans. Both cause just as much damage. 

Look at the deregulations Obama and Clinton did and the growing wealth inequality under their reigns. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Bno

[Raptorsin7]

@Bno Politics is a game of lesser evils. Corporate dems are better than corporate republicans. Both suck but one is better.

Ignore politics besides educating yourself on who to vote for. It's toxic and divisive. Focus on growth. 

[Bno]

@Raptorsin7 The systems growth is my growth too. That is the Self. Ignoring politics is ignoring the Self.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Bno

[Raptorsin7]

All is the self. The dirty bricks outside my apartment are also the self. If i ignore the bricks i am also ignoring the Self.

If you want to save the world. Save yourself first.

[Parththakkar12]

Correct me if I'm wrong : Is Stage Green too triggered to accept that people have their judgements and biases? Why is that such a big deal? It's not a rhetorical question, I genuinely want to know your reasons for it being a big deal to you.

[Bno]

@Raptorsin7 I guess Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard, Code Pink, Progressive Youtubers and journalists, and all other movements and individuals should stop what they're doing because they have to save themselves first. I guess Leo should stop actualized.org because he hasn't saved himself completely yet. I guess none of us should really express any of our education to promote change until we all reach high levels of enlightenment then?

Edited January 19, 2020 by Bno

[Bno]

@Parththakkar12 I would prefer to answer if you still have that question after watching the video first.

[Raptorsin7]

@Bno No. They can keep doing whatever they're doing. I'm talking about you. You are already more woke then 99.9% of the population. You resonate with Bernie, Progressivsm. You're good. You've been reached. 

At this point every progressive video you watch is just mental masturbation. It's preaching to the choir. 

Focus on personal growth. At every level. That will naturally lead you to influencing systems once you have taken care of your basic human needs first.

[Bno]

@Raptorsin7 Every day new things happen. Every day you and I learn something new. I can focus on both personal growth and activism. Both go hand in hand, this was a major focus in Ecodharma by David Loy. And the major focus in so many other books on Leo's booklist is about us made in the image of God: creators. We create systemic changes and we create our growth.

[Raptorsin7]

@Bno That's a good point. Just be careful with watching videos and thinking you're engaging in activism. I've fallen in the same trap. 

[Bno]

@Raptorsin7 Yea I know, I was in the that trap for a while when I had other goals in mind for my future. However, after reanalyzing my goals I am getting more involved by going to rallies, getting interviewed, reading more books, going to speeches, etc.

[purerogue]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

If you could transition into a black transgender woman, your personal relationship with reality would be altered. How you navigate through life would be very different. Your experience, perceptions and interpretations toward your wellbeing and survival would be very different. Your current white, straight are not relative through the lens of a white, straight male oriented toward it’s well-being and survival. Those privileges would be revealed if you could transition to being a black transgender woman. Yet white, straight, males don’t have to acknowledge their own privilege or work through it, because they don’t have to bear the burden of not having those privileges. This itself is a privilege. 

I am not sure what white  , or black has anything to do with transgender, with such mentality you could have just said that some people get born into more difficult situations and in general public are biased toward such people, which again has nothing to do with skin color,  I think you lack understanding on how complex life can be, skin color does not save you from poverty, abuse, mental problem, psychological problems, and so on,

you can have just as bad life with any skin color and any gender.  
 

[Forestluv]

@purerogue I’m not saying that you are wrong. I’m saying that you are missing something. Not missing a fact or thought. Rather missing something much more radical and beyond one’s current paradigm. Yet it's not resonating with you.

[purerogue]

9 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@purerogue I’m not saying that you are wrong. I’m saying that you are missing something. Not missing a fact or thought. Rather missing something much more radical and beyond one’s current paradigm. Yet it's not resonating with you.

I understand what you mean, but such finger pointing is reason why you have conflicts, one side makes claims about how easy life is for another, or how one side is bad, making statements like that just leads to new forms of movements that want to be understood while bashing other side that wants to be understood.

You do not fight problem by creating more hate and that is what you are doing by making such statements. If you think that someone who has had his own problems, his own experience will take liking to shaming on how he is privileged just because he is white and straight you are wrong, you will create deep hate for opposing side, as you will create deep hate against white , straight people from other side that will be made to generalize people like that.

You can see it all over the internet, how people react to such statements, you will rarely find people in-between, it is just one side triggering other side. 

 

[Leo Gura]

I agree we need to distinguish between progressives and neoliberals/centrists.

But how it's done is also important. It's important to recognize that lots of people are neoliberals and centrist liberals because that is their level of development. You can't brow-beat them into becoming progressives. Almost by definition progressives are the rarest ones on the political spectrum.

So while it's important to not confuse a neoliberal for a progressive, attacking neoliberals and centrist Dems is problematic because you just can't convert all Dems into progressives. There needs to be coalition and some mutual acceptance.

My problem with Jimmy Dore is that I feel he's too aggressive. It's like red meat for progressives but it won't work to build a coalition. Being a rabid dog is not a good way to go. Bernie is very progressive but he's not so rabid and obnoxious about it, which allows him to attract people who normally wouldn't call themselves progressives or socialists or whatever.

A very important principle for you to learn is that of meeting people where they're at. This will come up for you over and over again in life if you're going to be an advanced human. A lot of people will not be as advanced as you, and your solution to that cannot be to obnoxiously attack or "otherize" them.

Remember that these are all your brothers and sisters. That is the real challenge. It would be so much easier if we could otherize half the population and lock them up in Montana. But we can't.

[Bno]

@Leo Gura I'm not seeking to attack anyone. I never had. This is about trying to raise consciousness here about some of the "gatekeepers" that were talked about in the video I shared and their unconscious bias as a result of their privelidge. 

In terms of identifying neoliberals vs progressives, I was referring to political figures. Many self-identified progressives, especially many of the "white gatekeepers" like Ana Kasparian, Emma Vigilan, Cenk Ugyr, Sam Sedar, and David Doel, kept illogically propping up Warren but bringing down Tulsi. They would do this despite the loyalty Tulsi Gabbard has shown towards Bernie Sanders since 2016 and the disloyalty Elizabeth Warren has shown towards him since 2016.

Also how some of these "white gatekeepers" like Michael Brooks have shown their unconscious white privelidged bias by dodging debates with minority progressive youtubers like Niko House because he was "bored," people telling Niko "who do you think you are trying to debate him" and how if he did that to a white progressive like Kyle Kulinski all hell would break loose and people would call Michael Brooks a scaredy cat. 

And how Mike Figueredo would call an 18 year old Brazilian progressive youtuber "dumb" and "fucking stupid" for pointing out mistakes Mike made about Tulsi Gabbard's healthcare plan. After she did hours of research, hours of putting a video together, etc. Such acts like this makes minorities feel unwelcomed. That's why there are no African American female progressives on YouTube.

Again, this is not about attacking them. This is about pointing out a major blindspot. Raising awareness so we can raise consciousness in our society. 

Not every white progressive has this unconscious bias either. This includes people like Jimmy Dore, Lee Camp, Matt Taibi, Ron Placone, Kyle Kulinski, and Graham Elwood. The biggest example are those that study US international relations like the people on the Grayzone (Aaron Mate, Max Blumenthal, and Ben Norton). Everyone who I mentioned here must have probably done something in their life to the extent of what @Serotoninluv did to realize and overcome their unconscious white privileged ego.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Bno