Holy Scripture studies

[tsuki]

This journal is an invitation to study Holy Scripture together.
I don't know whether "Holy Scripture" is a term exclusive to Christianity, but I don't mean it this way. 
If you're currently reading your Holy Scripture and have insights to share, then you are welcome to post them here along with relevant excerpts.

This is also a place where I invite discussions about differences and similarities between Holy Scriptures and their depictions of God.
The first rule of this journal is that it is not a fight club. Not just because you can talk about it.

[tsuki]

On 11.01.2020 at 2:47 PM, Bill W said:

I feel God is in me. He is part of me but that I am not God. He is not sitting in the clouds with a big grey beard. That much I know. But then again what do I know about God? I don't pretend to know anything for sure? How could I? How could I be so arrogant as to think I have it sussed out what or who God is? 

In the Book of Deuteronomy, when Moses is getting ready to die and repeats the Law before all sons of Israel, he makes a BIG point to not make any statues that depict God. Not using God's name in vain is also a big thing in Christianity and God the Father revealed His name only to Moses (not to Noah, or Abraham). I think that is because you are not supposed to reason, or imagine how God works or make Him into some common object to be found in the world. I do not think that it implies that you should not try to understand Him though. I mean that in the sense that he is a certain way and you should know which way.

As for "sitting in the clouds with a big grey beard" - it seems to me that the Holy trinity so far is that:

• Father is an objective, third-person manifestation of God. He manifests as a person, as a pillar of fire, or a pillar of clouds, etc and is perceivable by multiple observers. That is what happened at mount Sinai and on multiple other places.
• Holy Spirit is a subjective, first-person manifestation of God that is revealed to prophets. It grants the ability to perform miracles, prophesise and so forth. 
• Son is, well... I don't know yet. Supposedly he is the God-Man. I'm still too early into the text to understand that.
  What intrigues me is that when you perform the Trinitian formula, Son is opposed to Father and "joined" through  Holy Spirit in the Cross gesture. That really speaks to me for some reason but it may be my personal bias.

Edited January 13, 2020 by tsuki

[Angelite]

On 1/13/2020 at 4:54 PM, tsuki said:

This is how you went from 2d to 3d @Nivsch

(Still haven't decided how I wanna start this.)

...

Can you set up the rules @tsuki?

Do you want it to be strictly on Holy Scriptures or u wouldn't mind some of my synchronicity that is related to the flow of this thread. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Angelite

[Angelite]

Quran's views on the People of the Book (Jews & Christians Scriptures)

♣

5. Al-Maidah : The Table Spread

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah(alms) and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way." 12

 

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. 13

 

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do. 14

 

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. 15

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darkness into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path. 16

 

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. 17

 

But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. 18

 

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. 19

...

[Angelite]

 

On 1/13/2020 at 4:54 PM, tsuki said:

In the Book of Deuteronomy, when Moses is getting ready to die and repeats the Law before all sons of Israel, he makes a BIG point to not make any statues that depict God. Not using God's name in vain is also a big thing in Christianity and God the Father revealed His name only to Moses (not to Noah, or Abraham). I think that is because you are not supposed to reason, or imagine how God works or make Him into some common object to be found in the world. I do not think that it implies that you should not try to understand Him though. I mean that in the sense that he is a certain way and you should know which way.

On Moses

And We gave Moses the Scripture, after We had destroyed the former generations, as enlightenment for the people and guidance and mercy that they might be reminded. [28:43]

and A Statue

[ Allah ] said, "And what made you hasten from your people, O Moses?" [20:83]

He said, "They are close upon my tracks, and I hastened to You, my Lord, that You be pleased." [20:84]

[ Allah ] said, "But indeed, We have tried your people after you [departed], and  As-Samiri has led them astray." [20:85]

So Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved. He said, "O my people, did your Lord not make you a good promise? Then, was the time [of its fulfillment] too long for you, or did you wish that wrath from your Lord descend upon you, so you broke your promise [of obedience] to me?" [20:86]

They said, "We did not break our promise to you by our will, but we were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people [of Pharaoh], so we threw them [into the fire], and thus did As-Samiri throw." [20:87]

And he extracted for them [the statue of] a calf which had a lowing sound, and they said, "This is your god and the god of Moses, but he forgot." [20:88]

Did they not see that it could not return to them any speech and that it did not possess for them any harm or benefit? [20:89]

And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], "O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order." [20:90]

They said, "We will never cease being devoted to the calf until Moses returns to us." [20:91]

♣

...

Moses was given a Scripture (Torah x The Law ), and ten scrolls (before he was given the Torah).

Basically, whats inside the Torah is karma. The law of karma. An eye for an eye.

On Torah

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

 

Gospel

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

 

Quran

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

5:44-48

...

 

My understanding of these scriptures in general, is that the Old Testament is referring to the Jewish Scripture & the New Testament to the Christian scripture. From my pov, if you are a christian then you are a jew. 

@tsukiMoses law is way stricter than prophet Muhammad's, hence not many can follow it (back then). It has been reduced to  five daily prayer during the prophet's ascension. He met Moses. 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Angelite

[Angelite]

1 hour ago, Angelite said:

Quran's views on the People of the Book (Jews & Christians Scriptures)

♣

5. Al-Maidah : The Table Spread

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah(alms) and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way." 12

 

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. 13

♣

JOHN 12:40

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,

Lest they should see with their eyes,

Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, 

So that I should heal them."

[tsuki]

On 13.01.2020 at 0:57 PM, Angelite said:

Can you set up the rules @tsuki?

Do you want it to be strictly on Holy Scriptures or u wouldn't mind some of my synchronicity that is related to the flow of this thread.

I wouldn't mind your synchronicities. 
To be frank, I don't have much of an idea about how this journal is supposed to look, so feel free to share what you want.

[tsuki]

6 hours ago, Angelite said:

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do. 14

Was the "portion of that of which they were reminded" ever mentioned in Qran?
Or is it that according to Qran, Christians are bound to wait until the Day of Resurrection to learn what they forgot?
Is the Qran's Day of Resurrection the same as the one mentioned in the Bible?

5 hours ago, Angelite said:

On Torah

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

I'm having trouble understanding the underlined sentence.
The prophets who submitted to Allah judged by it for the Jews, <~ that is clear
as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. <~ ???

The above sentence is split in two as if prophets did something different from rabbis and scholars.
The contents of the sentence however, seem as if they did the same thing - they judged for the Jews according to Torah, which is a part of the Scripture of Allah.

So, the whole first paragraph seems as if Allah is saying that one should not fear the judges (prophets, rabbis and scholars), but Him. That is because the Torah is only a part of Scripture of Allah that is for the Jews, specifically?

5 hours ago, Angelite said:

On Torah [continued]

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

This is also not clear to me.
If I am giving up my right for retribution, then is that:

1. an expiation for me?
2. or is it an expiation for the person that had hurt me?

These two interpretations give a very different pictures of what a sin is.

5 hours ago, Angelite said:

From my pov, if you are a christian then you are a jew. 

From the POV of the scripture - yes, the Christian Bible contains the Old testament.
Jews, however, reject Christ as their prophet, so no - Christians are not Jews.
Here's an article that I haven't read.

4 hours ago, Angelite said:

JOHN 12:40

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,

Lest they should see with their eyes,

Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, 

So that I should heal them."

That is very interesting. I have a difficult case of a hard heart .

Edited January 16, 2020 by tsuki

[tsuki]

This is so awesome:

To think that these squiggly lines convey meaning is just mind-blowing.

______________________________________________

Here's a link to an article that explains something that bothered me for a long time.
Here's more stuff, even more interesting. An excerpt:

Quote

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Schaff's emendation of the Book of Common Prayer translation.

So, according to Christian doctrine - Christ is both God and man.
He is a man born from a mother, but he is also God. He is "not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God.". His function, purpose makes him God - a pathway to God, salvation. for other humans. Nope??? There seems to be a difference between Christ and Jesus?

I wonder what the "unity of Person" means.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousia
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead_in_Christianity

Edited January 16, 2020 by tsuki

[Radical]

I'd like to give interpretation on one verse in Quran, forgive me my grammatical mistakes.

Quote

surah 2, verse 216. War in Allah's cause (or fighting) has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.

Human is reflection inside the mirror of someone who stands in front of the mirror. Human is bound to repeat every action after the original one. Of course, he is reflection, and reflection reflects. And human naturally wants to become the one who is in front of the mirror. Human wants to lose heaviness of being a reflection, and just to be the original one, and not a reflection. He wants to simply be... Because the original one is pure being and it is so easy. And for some its even more than that, it is blissful, it is satchitananda. It is joy and love and goodness.

Human then calls his reflection nature as ego, illusion, avidiya, ignorance. He spends years to dissolve it, and to become nothingness. What can he do, all gurus he saw taught exactly same thing.

But who is that one (the original one) who stands in front of the mirror and sees its own reflection in the mirror? That original one is what people on this forum call God. Echart Tolle calls him God. Mooji calls him God. Rupert Spira and Adyashanti calls him God's Infinite Being. That's why they keep saying that God = you, reality = God, Being = God.

But then prophets come and give us text, and then we know - this original one in front of the mirror -  it is God of this world, God of this reality, King of this world, or Devil, Iblis. It is The Great Being. It is also an archetype of all worlds. All worlds are reflections of this one original archetype. Also: Ishvara, Shiva, 'Father', Apollos (in arabic - Iblis), Ahura-Mazda, God of light and beauty. And we are his reflections. Our task, prophets say, is not to become him, and not to dissolve our egos in him, but we are ought to emancipate consciousness from him, from Being. We are to oppose him. Because the true God is not him and we receive text about who is that true God. We receive method to emancipate consciousness. This task exists not for us, but we exist for that task. Solving that task will define the meaning of existence.

Wait a moment, how can good-love-bliss-truth be the Devil? I don't get it. Good question. The thing is that, God intentionally created reality upon the error. It is made so as a test for people. So people will fix it. The core of the error is good and evil. Verse says: Maybe you love something but in fact it is evil for you, and maybe you hate something but in fact it is good for you. Or in other words, what you think is evil - that is good, and what you think is good - that is evil. What seems like good in this reality, and what you naturally love - this is evil. And what seems like bad and what you naturally hate - this is good.

Let's stop on first part - the Good declared as Evil - it is knowledge about that one in front of the mirror - he presents himself as Goodness and Love. But in fact it is Devil. Apollo in Greek tradition is God of Love, Beauty, Harmony, Light. And also he presents himself as Consciousness. But in fact he is not Consciousness. Consciousness exists only as opposition to Being, as a contrast to Being, but not as part of Being, not as equal to Being. Only as opposition and not in oneness, and not in just being. Witness is not is-ness, Witness is separate and opposite to is-ness. Is-ness  by its very nature is pointing that it is not witness. Witness cannot be what is witnessed. But this Devil tricks people and presents Consciousness as his own nature by saying some illogical thing like witnessed = what is witnessed. That's not an illusion, its not an illusion that it seems like they are same thing, but it is the result of the fact that Consciousness is suppressed by Being. And, returning to what is previously said, we are to emancipate Consciousness from Being. We receive method, the scripture is that instruction. One of the instructions is: To put names of Allah, the one who is absent, the one who we call Huwa (Kul-huwa-Allahu-ahad), HE, or absent one, to put his names in the focus and centre of our spiritual attention. Graceful, Merciful, Giving, Forcing, Almighty etc. We are interested in putting these names in the centre and in focus of our spiritual attention. To be able to do that, to perform that - leads to emancipation of consciousness. It leads to immediate and to correct awakening, or providential awakening. Its just one of the methods.

So this -TRUTH-CONSCIOUSNESS-LOVE - or absolute infinity, or infinite goodness-love, is false orientation, false value and false 'God', an idol. Thats why the witness of faith is la ilaha illallah (there are no gods except Allah) - Except and besides the one whose name is Allah who is radically Separate from reality, Opposite to Infinity, Opposite to Absolute Everything-ness, and radically Transcendent and yet is active here and now through his absence, besides him there is no other immanent Gods. It is denial of idea that any immanent gods including The Great Being are Gods, they are denied as orientation and value. This one, this infinity, or this thing in front of  the mirror, or this pure being, or this love, light, truth - is denied. Instead of that, there is Allah as your orientation. And we can know about him and 'get towards' him only through what prophet's scripture revealed (Muhammadar rasulullah). Besides that we don't have tools. Because when we use our natural tools, we almost always reach The Great Being and then call him God and then we try to dissolve into him. Without abrahamic and only abrahamic holy scripture as a method, we fall for idols. Real idol is not statue or image, real idol is that infinite which presents itself as infinitely good Being. But in reality it is just the big candy who said in Quran: 'I will come to them from right,left,back,front and will surely mislead all of them from your path, except thy righteous slaves'. Btw, that's one of the reasons why Moses-Pharaoh collision is so often given in Quran - Pharaoh declared: I am God (things didn't change ever since then as we can see), while his Egyptian priests based their metaphysics around pantheism/nonduality, oneness of Being where Being = God. They were enlightened. And Pharaoh too. And the whole tyrannical Egyptian pyramidal order had roots in their nondual metaphysics. Paradoxically, the metaphysics of 'infinite goodness of the great being' led to tyrannical order, enlightened avant garde created tyranny. Then Moses was sent by true God, he was sent to destroy this pantheistic ideology and political tyranny.

But I think the main problem here is this: all or many gurus are advocating for so-called 'positive experience'. They say: to experience, to be spontaneous etc. is positive thing and our main goal in spirituality is experience, and this experience is to be positive. Look, you breath, you walk, you love, you have highs and lows, it is positive. They advocate for positive experiential nature of reality. Because for them, Reality = God. And people fall for that idea of good, they try to find spiritual state where experience will be positive. But la ilaha illallah is advocating the opposite - you should know that there is no positive experience in the field of immanent, even though it feels positive but its not positive from the perspective of Consciousness. You should know that reality is not God. That doesn't put God somewhere away, we wilfully put him in the centre of our attention (through his names) even though he is absent.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Radical

[Angelite]

@Radical

Quote

But then prophets come and give us text,

He didn't came with a text though. They learn it by real time events and directly to their hearts. A walking scripture. The texts are for those who came later (us). 

8 hours ago, tsuki said:

Quote

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do. 14

Was the "portion of that of which they were reminded" ever mentioned in Qran?
Or is it that according to Qran, Christians are bound to wait until the Day of Resurrection to learn what they forgot?
Is the Qran's Day of Resurrection the same as the one mentioned in the Bible?

-I don't know. [5:101-102]

-Forgetting a portion of that which they were reminded is ignoring what has been reminded to them(God's laws).

-The Quran describes the Day of Resurrection in a simplistic manner. It wasn't explained in a detailed way. I read a lot about the Resurrection in Said Nursi's works. 

From the Quran's perspective, when you died physically, your body will return back into it's original form. Some may resurrect in a different form (eg. a pig or a monkey) for their sins. Everyone will resurrect in the state they are in when they died. Any prior state will be irrelevant. (but your prior state is what will shape your death state)

...

Quote

 

On Torah

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

 

I'm having trouble understanding the underlined sentence.
The prophets who submitted to Allah judged by it for the Jews, <~ that is clear
as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. <~ ???

The above sentence is split in two as if prophets did something different from rabbis and scholars.
The contents of the sentence however, seem as if they did the same thing - they judged for the Jews according to Torah, which is a part of the Scripture of Allah.

So, the whole first paragraph seems as if Allah is saying that one should not fear the judges (prophets, rabbis and scholars), but Him. That is because the Torah is only a part of Scripture of Allah that is for the Jews, specifically?

- you're funny~ Both the prophets and the rabbis x scholars use the scripture as a guidelines, judging everything by it. (For the Jews back then). To apply God's rules & law, instead of their own judgement (re: people's judgement). Not changing Allah's verses for a small price, to suite their own egoic needs etc. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

-It is not contradictory. The real Torah won't be contradictory to the newer scriptures by the prophets who came after it. 

...

Quote

 

On Torah [continued]

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

 

This is also not clear to me.
If I am giving up my right for retribution, then is that:

1. an expiation for me?
2. or is it an expiation for the person that had hurt me?

These two interpretations give a very different pictures of what a sin is.

-This verse is on karma. Islam (Moses Law which is not contradictory to the teachings of Quran) grant you the rights to do justice to yourself. It doesn't deny your rights in the case of injustice done to you. An eye for an eye. A life for a life. (Not a life for a two). But then, there is a choice of mercy . A third option. When you forgive, it is harder for you to do, but the rewards is greater. For you, you'll be raised to a higher rank/degree(it can manifest in the form of many things, if not in this world then the next), for the other who has done injustice to you, it will get back to the natural state. 

In the case of no forgiveness, the person who have done injustice might be in for a bad karma. Hence spreading more negative effect to the world. 

(In my religion, sins with people will only be forgiven by the one's you've done injustice to. God will not interfere with it. It's between you and them)

In the case of claiming your own justice, by inflicting the same injustice that was done to you (an eye for an eye), both will return to a natural state. It will be equal. might not be the same since the damage had been done, but equal. In a worser state. But it stops at that. 

If you gives up your right (to inflict the same injustice that was done to you), your other sins will be forgiven. (If you don't have a sin, refer to the above. Higher ranks*)

An expiation for you from your sins. An  expiation for them from your wrath/curse. 

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Quote

 

From the POV of the scripture - yes, the Christian Bible contains the Old testament.

Jews, however, reject Christ as their prophet, so no - Christians are not Jews.

 

A Christian is a Jew.

But a Jew  is not a Christian.

...

A Jew may or may not be a Christian. There are Jews who accepts Islam and prophet Isa (Back then).

An example would be Safiyya bint Huyayy, Prophet Muhammad's wife. The mother of believers. We call them Muslim with a Jewish descent~

Edit: It is understandable for the Jews to reject Christianity though. Because the Christians are divided by two. One are the genuine followers of Isa, the other wish to kill him. 

If the people of the book accept Islam, they will get double the reward. Because they follow both/three. But it is rare for a Jew to accept Islam because they're stuck in the first stage. Not accepting Isa. The Christians are closer to Muslims. 

-Forgetting a portion of that which they were reminded is ignoring what has been reminded to them(God's laws).

Ignorance is what was meant.

[27:14] And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters.

Read sura At-Taghabun On Resurrection

@tsuki there are many Quranic tafseer, I see your tendency to misinterpret the Quran in a totally different meaning than it's obvious meaning. Maybe because it's new to you. A tafseer would be good. 

(I wrote this yesterday)

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[Angelite]

The Opening

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

Master of the Day of Judgment.

It is You we worship and You we ask for help.

Guide us to the straight path

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

(Everything in the Quran boils down to this seven verses..)

...

[Angelite]

4:155-170

[tsuki]

6 hours ago, Angelite said:

@tsuki there are many Quranic tafseer, I see your tendency to misinterpret the Quran in a totally different meaning than it's obvious meaning. Maybe because it's new to you. A tafseer would be good. 

I'm not just new to Qran, but also to religion in the common sense in general. I was born and raised atheist.

6 hours ago, Angelite said:

-The Quran describes the Day of Resurrection in a simplistic manner. It wasn't explained in a detailed way. I read a lot about the Resurrection in Said Nursi's works. 

From the Quran's perspective, when you died physically, your body will return back into it's original form. Some may resurrect in a different form (eg. a pig or a monkey) for their sins. Everyone will resurrect in the state they are in when they died. Any prior state will be irrelevant. (but your prior state is what will shape your death state)

From my limited knowledge, what Christians call "the day of Resurrection" refers to Jesus' second coming during the Apocalypse (but I may be wrong in this matter).

• Does Qran address the Apocalypse?
• Who is the person that is resurrected during Qran's day of Resurrection?
• Does Jesus hold any special place in Islam's analogue of the Holy Trinity? Is there any analogue of it?
  Is Christ "Word made flesh": an incarnation of Logos that is sent by God to teach humans His ways?

6 hours ago, Angelite said:

- you're funny~ Both the prophets and the rabbis x scholars use the scripture as a guidelines, judging everything by it. (For the Jews back then). To apply God's rules & law, instead of their own judgement (re: people's judgement). Not changing Allah's verses for a small price, to suite their own egoic needs etc. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

-It is not contradictory. The real Torah won't be contradictory to the newer scriptures by the prophets who came after it. 

Alright, that's clear.

6 hours ago, Angelite said:

-This verse is on karma. Islam (Moses Law which is not contradictory to the teachings of Quran) grant you the rights to do justice to yourself. It doesn't deny your rights in the case of injustice done to you. An eye for an eye. A life for a life. (Not a life for a two). But then, there is a choice of mercy . A third option. When you forgive, it is harder for you to do, but the rewards is greater. For you, you'll be raised to a higher rank/degree(it can manifest in the form of many things, if not in this world then the next), for the other who has done injustice to you, it will get back to the natural state. 

In the case of no forgiveness, the person who have done injustice might be in for a bad karma. Hence spreading more negative effect to the world. 

(In my religion, sins with people will only be forgiven by the one's you've done injustice to. God will not interfere with it. It's between you and them)

In the case of claiming your own justice, by inflicting the same injustice that was done to you (an eye for an eye), both will return to a natural state. It will be equal. might not be the same since the damage had been done, but equal. In a worser state. But it stops at that. 

If you gives up your right (to inflict the same injustice that was done to you), your other sins will be forgiven. (If you don't have a sin, refer to the above. Higher ranks*)

• How does this relate to reincarnation?
• Do people get reincarnated as lower forms because they have inflicted hurt on others and have not been forgiven/dealt with?
  That makes retribution an act of mercy because unless you give your hurt back, you are condemning your enemy to be reincarnated.
• When does reincarnation of an individual soul stop in Islam? Is it when the soul achieves certain purity through forgiveness ("Higher ranks")?
• How does forgiveness and purity relate to Jesus? Is he a special person (or God?) in this regard?

6 hours ago, Angelite said:

Edit: It is understandable for the Jews to reject Christianity though. Because the Christians are divided by two. One are the genuine followers of Isa, the other wish to kill him. 

This picks my interest, tell me more about it.
I can see that may relate to the passage that you mentioned ("So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection"). What are these two groups? Which among Christians want to kill Jesus?

Edited January 17, 2020 by tsuki

[Angelite]

7 hours ago, tsuki said:

I'm not just new to Qran, but also to religion in the common sense in general. I was born and raised atheist.

From my limited knowledge, what Christians call "the day of Resurrection" refers to Jesus' second coming during the Apocalypse (but I may be wrong in this matter).

• Does Qran address the Apocalypse?
• Who is the person that is resurrected during Qran's day of Resurrection?
• Does Jesus hold any special place in Islam's analogue of the Holy Trinity? Is there any analogue of it?
  Is Christ "Word made flesh": an incarnation of Logos that is sent by God to teach humans His ways?

Oh it is different then. Our resurrection is different. You won't come back alive in this world. But in a totally different dimension.

Everyone. From the first human to the last.

Jesus is mentioned a lot in the Quran. Together with his mother & the pure spirit(Angel Gabriel). Read chapter 5 & sura Mary. It describe his birth. & the family of Mary. 

Alright, that's clear.

• How does this relate to reincarnation?

My definition of karma is like a merit & demerit system. Idk how you viewed reincarnation. 

• Do people get reincarnated as lower forms because they have inflicted hurt on others and have not been forgiven/dealt with?

No we don't believe in reincarnation. The only thing that was mentioned in the Quran about people changing form is from human being to pig and monkey.

• That makes retribution an act of mercy because unless you give your hurt back, you are condemning your enemy to be reincarnated.
• When does reincarnation of an individual soul stop in Islam? Is it when the soul achieves certain purity through forgiveness ("Higher ranks")?

We're not into reincarnation. Every soul are responsible for their own soul. Only their own soul. 

• How does forgiveness and purity relate to Jesus? Is he a special person (or God?) in this regard?

Jesus claimed that he is not the one to forgive or to punish. It is up to God.

Quran[5:117]

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

Quran[5:118]

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

 

This picks my interest, tell me more about it.
I can see that may relate to the passage that you mentioned ("So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection"). What are these two groups? Which among Christians want to kill Jesus?

I was referring to the Christians during the time of Jesus. Well, they are not "christians" but live within the time of Jesus. Refer to my other thread about the Crucifixion. 

[3:21]

Those who disbelieve in the signs of Allah and kill the prophets without right and kill those who order justice from among the people - give them tidings of a painful punishment.

(referring to the past prophets, there are many prophets)

Edited January 17, 2020 by Angelite

[Angelite]

There is one more scripture which I didn't mentioned. Zabur by prophet David. 

...

[29:46]

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

[Angelite]

4. An-Nisa' - The Women

And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

[156-159]

 

For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them [certain] good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of Allah many [people],

And [for] their taking of usury while they had been forbidden from it, and their consuming of the people's wealth unjustly. And we have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

But those firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you. And the establishers of prayer [especially] and the givers of zakah and the believers in Allah and the Last Day - those We will give a great reward.

Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].

And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.

[We sent] messengers as bringers of good tidings and warners so that mankind will have no argument against Allah after the messengers. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

But Allah bears witness to that which He has revealed to you. He has sent it down with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness [as well]. And sufficient is Allah as Witness.

[160-166]

 

Indeed, those who disbelieve and avert [people] from the way of Allah have certainly gone far astray.

Indeed, those who disbelieve and commit wrong [or injustice] - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a path.

Except the path of Hell; they will abide therein forever. And that, for Allah, is [always] easy.

O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together.

And as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards and grant them extra from His bounty. But as for those who disdained and were arrogant, He will punish them with a painful punishment, and they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.

[167-173]

 

O mankind, there has come to you a conclusive proof from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a clear light.

So those who believe in Allah and hold fast to Him - He will admit them to mercy from Himself and bounty and guide them to Himself on a straight path.

They request from you a [legal] ruling. Say, " Allah gives you a ruling concerning one having neither descendants nor ascendants [as heirs]." If a man dies, leaving no child but [only] a sister, she will have half of what he left. And he inherits from her if she [dies and] has no child. But if there are two sisters [or more], they will have two-thirds of what he left. If there are both brothers and sisters, the male will have the share of two females. Allah makes clear to you [His law], lest you go astray. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

[174-176]

[Angelite]

On Resurrection

(A metaphor)

And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby [some] of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded. 7:57

And the good land - its vegetation emerges by permission of its Lord; but that which is bad - nothing emerges except sparsely, with difficulty. Thus do We diversify the signs for a people who are grateful. 7:58

[Angelite]

On 1/16/2020 at 7:30 PM, tsuki said:

This is so awesome:

To think that these squiggly lines convey meaning is just mind-blowing.

If there's anything that I like about the arabic words, it is in its design. The arabic books are such in high quality in its making. 

Who made this miniature Quran? 

 

 

[Angelite]

The Scrolls (صحف) of Moses & Abraham

Or has he not been informed of what was in the scrolls of Moses.

And [of] Abraham, who fulfilled [his obligations] -

That no bearer of burdens(/sins) will bear the burden of another

And that there is not for man except that [good] for which he strives

That man can have nothing but what he strives for;

And that his effort is going to be seen -

Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete;

That to thy Lord is the final Goal;

That it is He Who granteth Laughter and Tears;

That it is He Who granteth Death and Life;

And that He creates the two mates - the male and female -

From a (sperm)drop when it is emitted

...

(Read till verse 62) 

This chapter (53) , "The Star" , from the Qurān explain what is inside the Scrolls of Abraham & Moses. It is somewhat full circle. 

53:60 And you laugh and do not weep

53:43 And that it is He who makes [one] laugh and weep

 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Angelite