Enlightenment Work Can Be A Bit Tiresome

[cetus]

2 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Absolutely could be.  The thought crosses my mind all the time.  

@Heart of Space This is it without all the fancy additives-"Rest as Awareness" What a great message.

 

[Telepresent]

16 hours ago, ChimpBrain said:

I'm starting to view it about like playing the lottery. Sure, if you win the payoff is huge. But what are the odds? And would that money (in our case time) be better spent on other productive endeavors?

 

3 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

maybe it is because of all the nonsense that is being taught by people who have no experience , do ya think that might be part of the problem,

10 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Absolutely could be.  The thought crosses my mind all the time.  

 

Or it could be that enlightenment is not real and there's nothing to achieve here aside from a little emotional stability gained after meditating.

If I can throw in my two cents on this: I'm not a fan of the term 'enlightenment'.  I'm not 'seeking enlightenment'.  The reason being that the term enlightenment is such a convoluted mess of concepts and ideas that it's impossible to even say without conjouring up all kinds of (often contradictory) mental constructs, images, and abstractions about what it really is.

What I consider myself to be doing is trying to work out what is absolutely true in my experience.  Maybe that will lead to what people call enlightenment, maybe it won't.  But whether or not I 'reach' it (another tricky term), what this process has done is given me a far, FAR greater understanding of my sense of self, how my mind works, how I react emotionally to all kinds of things, how my emotions relate to thoughts and actions (both mine and others'), how I relate to and understand other people, how I understand the world around me...

Now, I consider that to be of IMMENSE value, whether or not I 'reach enlightenment'.  It makes daily life easier to deal with, it makes difficult situations easier to deal with, it helps me to be much calmer and have far fewer negative emotions, and I often feel absolutely great for no external reason: I just feel great.

However, the process is also very hard.  I've said elsewhere that I am primarily focussed on Spiritual Autolysis as described by Jed McKenna, who describes it as 'like a zen koan on steroids'.  It is a rather extreme form of self-enquiry, and it leads you to question very, very fundamental things about how you understand the world, and yourself.  And that can at times be very emotionally difficult.  A lot of the time you feel stuck, or frustrated, or like you're smacking your head against a brick wall.  And it takes time, and committment, and quickly turns into a drive so that it's the only thing you want to focus on (which means you need to be disciplined enough to do it alongside work, personal commitments, etc.)

I had a lot of emotional issues a few years ago, which is what led me to start on the self-development road.  I agree that I would not have been able to do this when I was in that part of my life.  Meditation and mindfulness would have been extremely helpful, but the places the deep self-inquiry take you?  I'm not sure I would have been emotionally ready for that.

So... what's my point?  I guess that whether this leads to an ulitimate somewhere or not, it comes with its own benefits that I think can't be achieved through more foundational self-development work or meditation practices, but that it is HARD WORK, and absolutely I think that you need to be in a sturdy place emotionally before embarking on it.  At least, that's my opinion!

[cetus]

12 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

My life is about as fucked up as a life gets in a first world country.  It's an absolute nightmare, so it could be a lot of things.  If I recognize those things fully they shouldn't stop me though should they(question mark)    

 

This being the case, find a way out. I know that sounds easy but your young. You can make it happen! Look at all your options. Education mostly. 

[Zephyr]

@Heart of Space

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

 

Or it could be that enlightenment is not real and there's nothing to achieve here aside from a little emotional stability gained after meditating.

This could very well be true. It also depends what we mean by 'enlightenment' 

[charlie2dogs]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

Absolutely could be.  The thought crosses my mind all the time.  

 

Or it could be that enlightenment is not real and there's nothing to achieve here aside from a little emotional stability gained after meditating.

well i can tell you that is your the problem, i faced the same problem for many years.  enlightenment is a word, most who use it don't know anything about it, but they speculate, rationalize, and intellectualize about it.   forget the word, take one step away from your physical body and be your core being, experience it fully and function from there as a separate entity from the identity body and you will understand what all the talk is about.  I understand that most are not ready for this, but its something to contemplate, and that will make a big difference.  i have been there and done what most of the younger people here are trying to do, most of it is nothing more than a distraction even though they mean well.  most  have a great deal of programing, and false belief and too many so called teachers who have no clue what they are doing or doing to others,  that is keeping them from one simple thing to be self realized and liberated from your fictitious identity, programing, false beliefs, and warped perceptions of life and the world around you.  experience your core more, more, more and more until one day you suddenly realized that you are it and in that experience you will come to understand that you was never born, never died, created this existence for yourself, didnt need saving, you were just lost for a time because of your attachment to the body, and its desires of the flesh, and now you have come home to your true estate and it will be the living experience not just a rationalization about something you don't know and understand. picture that one step in your mind, be still with your core, experience it as much as possible, and your journey will be a lot shorter.  when you get there you will be functioning as separate from the body, you will be functioning in the moment of now, and you will be the seer not the seen.  and it is much easier than sorting through all the, doctrines, philosophies, teachings. religions, false teachers, wannabe guru's of this world.

 

 

[Mal]

You can dissociate, but I don't recommend it.

However, the choice is yours.

[abrakamowse]

11 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

Absolutely could be.  The thought crosses my mind all the time.  

 

Or it could be that enlightenment is not real and there's nothing to achieve here aside from a little emotional stability gained after meditating.

If you drop everything, even the idea of enlightenment, what still remains?

[abrakamowse]

13 hours ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

I feel you. But Adyashanti said that struggling is what's necessary to keep ego alive. The ego is like a paper tiger, it isn't real so it needs constantly to be fed by thought to have a foothold on reality. If you starve it out, it will naturally undo itself. The way to do this is to stop struggling against it. Accept ego and everything else in your reality. It's like a chinese finger trap, if you struggle against it, it gets tighter. But if you relax getting free is effortless. 

I am beginning to entertain the idea that there's no ego, it's just programming and belief. We need to experience the "I".

 

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by abrakamowse

[Ayla]

Enlightenment is very similar with looking for the glasses on your nose. It is really just that. Seems VERY simple when you've found them, even silly, but if you don't know where they are, you keep looking for them anywhere you think you might be able to find them. 

The reason you can't find it, is exactly because you are LOOKING for it, when in fact, IT is already what you are. 

What is tiresome ( and supposed to be that way) is that this requires sometimes years and years to exhaust the mind. To put it in a corner and make it admit that it cannot find anything at all. Mind, emotion,physical sensations, they all are manifestation on the soil that you are. Or are you? 

That is why one can read and read and study for years, without understanding that there is nothing "out there" to be found. All intellectual knowledge is useless. Even what I am typing here. It ends up stored somewhere for a few moments or days, until the next thing comes up. 

The reason why so few attain enlightenment, is because people get lost in this eternal search. It becomes a way of life. Their lives are bearable enough not to force them to push forward with REAL questioning, no matter how many thousands of hours of meditation... Mooji says it like this: "You want to taste the honey but not to be the honey". In other words, there's a profound, complete letting go that must happen. Most people that are enlightened nowadays, have done so more or less unwillingly - through suffering. How much can you let go of without suffering? Can you see that as soon as something seems to hurt, you stop the search and begin searching for yet another shortcut or another master or whatever?  

Also, enlightenment isn't an end all be all. As someone dear to me says, "we're all in recovery, as long as we live". The difference is that whatever comes, only grabs you by the hand and not by the throat. 

 

 

[Emerald]

30 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

I am beginning to entertain the idea that there's no ego, it's just programming and belief. We need to experience the "I".

 

 

That's what a lot of things have seemed to be pointing to for me as well. There has been a bit of a shift in the type of external information that I've been encountering about enlightenment lately from various sources. It seems to be moreso about focusing on the consciousness that is aware. Actually looking for being. Before, if this information was presenting itself, it never seemed like the most significant advice. Now, the idea of 'look for what is perceiving' seems to be popping up everywhere. 

[abrakamowse]

18 minutes ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

That's what a lot of things have seemed to be pointing to for me as well. There has been a bit of a shift in the type of external information that I've been encountering about enlightenment lately from various sources. It seems to be moreso about focusing on the consciousness that is aware. Actually looking for being. Before, if this information was presenting itself, it never seemed like the most significant advice. Now, the idea of 'look for what is perceiving' seems to be popping up everywhere. 

Lol, same thing is happening to me Emerald.

 

[All_Around_Me]

@Mal If that `shadow` is the collective image of fears (and he said something like that, that the shadow makes you scared), then all of them will be neutralized after awakening. But it is a gradual process. Basically they are the products of ego, so when your ego will be shaken, all of them will gradually fade. In fact I had a feeling that by using this word he is trying to sell on his technique, as if that shadow is such a big deal that you need somebody to guide you.
There is also one more thing. Ken Wilber wasn`t able to sit still even for a moment. Well, I don`t know, maybe his technique is helpful, but his words are full of gaps. At least personally for me.

@Heart of Space
I think that the less you know about all those studies the better for you. You need to question everything, but to keep the balance at the same time and not to become too judgemental or critical. That means you have to throw yourself in a lake of numerous doubts, where nothing is clear. When you will become so open that you will be able to assume that nonsense can have a sense, you will have much more chances to have an insight.

 

[Mal]

45 minutes ago, All_Around_Me said:

@Mal If that `shadow` is the collective image of fears (and he said something like that, that the shadow makes you scared), then all of them will be neutralized after awakening. But it is a gradual process. Basically they are the products of ego, so when your ego will be shaken, all of them will gradually fade. In fact I had a feeling that by using this word he is trying to sell on his technique, as if that shadow is such a big deal that you need somebody to guide you.
There is also one more thing. Ken Wilber wasn`t able to sit still even for a moment. Well, I don`t know, maybe his technique is helpful, but his words are full of gaps. At least personally for me.

Hi there, 

There is a simple remedy that will solve this little uncertainty for you.  All you have to do is take your statement, and turn it around:

"In fact I had a feeling that by using my words I am trying to sell on my technique"

Give it a try, see what happens and then watch the video again.

Regards

Mal

[All_Around_Me]

@Mal Wow, really)) Thanks, I didn`t notice) I guess his words just caused some kind of resistance in me)

[abrakamowse]

21 hours ago, Mal said:

You can dissociate, but I don't recommend it.

I didn't see the video, it's in my "to watch list" but... what is it to dissociate?

 

 

[Mal]

@abrakamowse

Hey, 

@All_Around_Me Gave us a perfect example of dissociation.  She "didn't notice" her projection onto Wilber, but only noticed it after using the 3-2-1 technique on herself.

All of us do this all the time.  Even self-realized masters.

-Mal

[abrakamowse]

12 minutes ago, Mal said:

@abrakamowse

Hey, 

@All_Around_Me Gave us a perfect example of dissociation.  She "didn't notice" her projection onto Wilber, but only noticed it after using the 3-2-1 technique on herself.

All of us do this all the time.  Even self-realized masters.

-Mal

Oh, I got you. I noticed that sometimes when we ask, the answer is in the same question. I do that a lot of times.

[Heart of Space]

On 6/11/2016 at 10:36 PM, ChimpBrain said:

Ahhh, you're right, I did misinterpret you, my bad! You really think there's a radical amount of self improvement left to be done after enlightenment is reached? I thought it was the end goal and that after reaching it you'd switch from spending so much time on yourself to spending much more of your time helping others to realize this profound truth. I'm clearly speculating, and speculating based off of zero first hand knowledge at that. 

No worries!  It seems Zephyr actually illuminated what we're talking about very well actually.  We both have the right idea I think.  Words are too fickle sometimes. 

[Heart of Space]

On 6/12/2016 at 9:21 PM, Ayla said:

 That is why one can read and read and study for years, without understanding that there is nothing "out there" to be found. All intellectual knowledge is useless. Even what I am typing here. It ends up stored somewhere for a few moments or days, until the next thing comes up.

Yea, that's been a big problem for me.  I try to intellectualize and logic out everything that comes up in my meditation.  I've gotten very, very good at being a mindful observer of thoughts and perceptions as they arise and fall in the mind without getting caught up in them.  But, being a scientifically minded logical thinker I always try to logically understand the implications of everything and give myself a logical progression to work towards enlightenment.  I almost have a romantic love of logical and rational thinking that is very deep ridden within myself.  I've only recently been able to turn that off after an hour or so of meditation in a single sit.  It's very hard for me to get past.  Once I do, there's much more silence in the mind.  I feel like I'm getting close to were I need to be, but there's no hint, no path, no goal, nothing to get me to enlightenment.  So, this has become a someone defeating journey for me.  Yet, I still continue to do this.  I'm even skeptical about the whole idea and go in between believing enlightenment is something that can be realized, or that it's complete bullshit and I'm wasting my time.  Oh well, meditating and mindfulness is a deeply ingrained habit at this point so I'll continue. 

 

Big thanks to everyone who has posted here.  I actually feel like a lot of posts here stimulated a greater amount of self-awareness and I've made some short hops in progress just reading your posts.  Appreciate the love guys, I hope you all are successful in your attempts to increase your awareness as well. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Heart of Space

[Ayla]

3 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Yea, that's been a big problem for me.  I try to intellectualize and logic out everything that comes up in my meditation.  I've gotten very, very good at being a mindful observer of thoughts and perceptions as they arise and fall in the mind without getting caught up in them.  But, being a scientifically minded logical thinker I always try to logically understand the implications of everything and give myself a logical progression to work towards enlightenment.  I almost have a romantic love of logical and rational thinking that is very deep ridden within myself.  I've only recently been able to turn that off after an hour or so of meditation in a single sit.  It's very hard for me to get past.  Once I do, there's much more silence in the mind.  I feel like I'm getting close to were I need to be, but there's no hint, no path, no goal, nothing to get me to enlightenment.  So, this has become a someone defeating journey for me.  Yet, I still continue to do this.  I'm even skeptical about the whole idea and go in between believing enlightenment is something that can be realized, or that it's complete bullshit and I'm wasting my time.  Oh well, meditating and mindfulness is a deeply ingrained habit at this point so I'll continue. 

You are none of that. There is a mind there, linked to some cells that are called neurons, that have a "known" path to manifest that way. This is as clear as clear can be. There is A mind and A body. All you need to do is to find through direct experience right this moment, if there is a director of them in any way shape or form. One of the key questions here is: "Asides a THOUGHT, what tells you that that mind and that body are YOU?" and " If you are not THOSE, who are you? where are your limits? Where do you see those from?" If you are somewhere OUT there and cannot be grasped, how the heck can that be YOU? ....