Do all vegans have deficiencies? vitamins and minerals

[Cocolove]

@Scholar I am reading Healing with whole foods which addresses all that stuff! Very cool!

[robinmk4l]

I agree that plant based is probably the way to go for health but one thing always confused me. People are talking about vegan diet as the way were "supposed" to eat. But we need vitamin B12 to live, and B12 is found in animal products??? Am i missing something here?

[DrewNows]

1 hour ago, robinmk4l said:

I agree that plant based is probably the way to go for health but one thing always confused me. People are talking about vegan diet as the way were "supposed" to eat. But we need vitamin B12 to live, and B12 is found in animal products??? Am i missing something here?

I have heard a healthy gut biome actually makes it’s own b12

Also the way we look at health in general is so distorted. Once It’s realized that removing obstructions leads to vitality as Arnold ehret says vitality = energy - obstruction, then there is more clarity as to why there are deficiencies and a dependence on various foods to meet those needs, but not without consequence as the build up of waste throughout the body is what leads to the various impairments/weaknesses over time, sometimes labeled as old age and genetics 
 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by DrewNows

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, robinmk4l said:

I agree that plant based is probably the way to go for health but one thing always confused me. People are talking about vegan diet as the way were "supposed" to eat. But we need vitamin B12 to live, and B12 is found in animal products??? Am i missing something here?

Apes eat insects, insects contain B12.

[SgtPepper]

@Scholar

https://www.cardiobrief.org/2016/07/29/changes-in-eskimo-diet-linked-to-increase-in-heart-disease/

------

From what I notice, a lot of the vegans on the forums are respectful, but biased. Anybody who is skimming through this thread needs to research both sides of the argument. 

If raw vegan was an excellent diet than many people would be thriving on it, but if I go on YouTube, I can find a multitude of people look pale, sick, weak, and malnourished. 

Fruits lack a bunch of necessary nutrients to survive; although they are great source of other nutrients like antioxidants and vitamin C.

The whole idea that people do not eat meat raw is ridiculous since it practiced by a multitude of cultures and the people who do it are healthy!

The reason why the Mossai tribe or eskimos could have a high mortality rates, besides the introduction of refined carbs, is due to lack of healthcare and it does not account of high rate of death in child births.

All animals are omnivores and eat meat. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by SgtPepper

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

@Scholar

https://www.cardiobrief.org/2016/07/29/changes-in-eskimo-diet-linked-to-increase-in-heart-disease/

------

A lot of the vegans on the forums are extremely biased. Anybody who is skimming through this thread needs to research both sides of the argument. 

If raw vegan was an excellent diet than many people would be thriving on it, but if I go on YouTube, I can find a multitude of people look pale, sick, weak, and malnourished. 

Fruits lack a bunch of necessary nutrients to survive; although they are great source of other nutrients like antioxidants and vitamin C.

The whole idea that people do not eat meat raw is ridiculous since it practiced by a multitude of cultures and the people who do it are healthy!

The reason why the Mossai tribe or eskimos could have a high mortality rates, besides the introduction of refined carbs, is due to lack of healthcare and it does not account of high rate of death in child births.

All animals are omnivores and eat meat. 

 

 

I think some of the papers I linked actually took the study you linked into consideration. The article you linked infact speaks for itself.

 

And no, herbivores are not omnivores. You do not understand biological classifications, you can feed a deer meat if it is starving, of course it will use calories if it has no access to other calories. This has nothing to do with what is optimal for their health.

I agree that for humans, especially in the western world, raw vegan diets can very easily lead to a lot of problems.

 

And I am sorry but posting stuff from sverige is to me just mindblowing. The guy is completely insane.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Scholar

[SgtPepper]

24 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I think some of the papers I linked actually took the study you linked into consideration. The article you linked infact speaks for itself.

 

And no, herbivores are not omnivores. You do not understand biological classifications, you can feed a deer meat if it is starving, of course it will use calories if it has no access to other calories. This has nothing to do with what is optimal for their health.

I agree that for humans, especially in the western world, raw vegan diets can very easily lead to a lot of problems.

 

And I am sorry but posting stuff from sverige is to me just mindblowing. The guy is completely insane.

Let go of how you feel about sv3rige because he was not even in the video. It is just a compilation of nature doing its thing. In addition, those animals did not appear to be starving and there were plenty of plants around to forage from.

at minute 1:30, a deer is surrounded by grass, but chose to eat a mouse.

Yes that link, analyzes the recent studies done on eskimos and proposes that these recent studies are not valid because they do not capture the original diet of the Eskimos, so the conclusion that their original diet is causing cardiovascular disease is unfounded.

Have you looked into Weston Price research who found that many indigenous cultures had excellent health, tall statures, and great teeth (no cavities)?

Edited January 24, 2020 by SgtPepper

[Scholar]

57 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

Let go of how you feel about sv3rige because he was not even in the video. It is just a compilation of nature doing its thing. In addition, those animals did not appear to be starving and there were plenty of plants around to forage from.

at minute 1:30, a deer is surrounded by grass, but chose to eat a mouse.

Yes that link, analyzes the recent studies done on eskimos and proposes that these recent studies are not valid because they do not capture the original diet of the Eskimos, so the conclusion that their original diet is causing cardiovascular disease is unfounded.

Have you looked into Weston Price research who found that many indigenous cultures had excellent health, tall statures, and great teeth (no cavities)?

Again that is not how biological classifications work at all. Animals have traits which allow for long term evolutionary adaptability. If herbivores would never feel the desire to hunt animals and eat meat, they would have almost no potential to ever evolve towards a carnivorous species if the environmental pressures required that transition.

A species which inherently has the desire to eat meat from time to time, even if fully adapted to herbivory, will in the long term outlive a species which has evolved itself into a dead-end. This kind of overarching adapatibility is key for the process of evolution.

 

I am aware of the Weston Price research. From what I know Indigenous cultures has a far harsher selective pressure put upon them, which does not allow for suboptimal genes to exist within these groups. Most undesired genes will be fished out of the pool simply by the death of children, but additional to that the general health of the group is far more important than for civilized groups as they are under far greater selective pressure.

 

The brains of people tens of thousands of years ago were larger than ours and the people were most likely on average far more intelligent, sharp and healthy than we are. It's no different in animals, you can get quite suboptimal genetics when you domisticate an animal. And human beings have domesticated themselves a long time ago. This is interesting because it poses an inevitable problem we will have to face somehow, the fact that removing selective pressure will lead to the degeneration of our species as far as our genetics go.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Scholar

[Hatfort]

@SgtPepper

Even herbivores can get calories and nutrients to survive from meat, as seen in your video, that doesn't mean it is the optimal diet for them, it's not and if their lifes weren't already short enough to develop diseases from that, they probably would. That could make the case for humans too, you are not proving humans need meat, only that we can eat it, which no vegan put into question.

Man, thanks for the respectul vengans thing, but calling the ones that think differently from you biased... What about you? Aren't you bieased when expressing your point of view? Or are you an objective neutral judge that brings us the truth? Well, thank you. The thing is, I used to think like you, but I changed my mind after checking more information sources. I don't pretend to have the whole truth, but maybe you shouldn't either.

Only meat diets are disastrous for the heart and the arteries, there is data on that. Changing to plant based prevents it, even reverses this kind of disesaes. The less meat and processed, the better. Look, eat what you want, as I will. I do eat cooked food, I love it, but it's true I eat more raw than I used to when I was omnivore.

Eating raw meat can be very dangerous, there are bacterias and parasites that are neutralized when cooked or processed. Lions and wolves have different digestive systems to handle this, we don't.

[Leo Gura]

The question is more complicated than simply "What is optimal?" There is also the question of what is practical.

Perhaps it is optimal for health to grow your own fields of celery and spend 2 hours juicing it every morning. But that's not practical for most people.

There are trade-offs between optimal, practical, affordable, and pleasurable/enjoyable. And all of those are factors people care about.

Humans are certainly not like a horse who is being fed meat or a lion who is being fed bananas. We are much more flexible. Flexibility is one of our stop strengths.

[Cocolove]

8 hours ago, robinmk4l said:

I agree that plant based is probably the way to go for health but one thing always confused me. People are talking about vegan diet as the way were "supposed" to eat. But we need vitamin B12 to live, and B12 is found in animal products??? Am i missing something here?

Read the research paper in the recent thread in this forum section on living food by pluto, the one on B12. It should address that well. Very complicated issue.

@DrewNows well said

 

5 hours ago, Scholar said:

And I am sorry but posting stuff from sverige is to me just mindblowing. The guy is completely insane.

Seriously he is literally insane.

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The question is more complicated than simply "What is optimal?" There is also the question of what is practical.

Perhaps it is optimal for health to grow your own fields of celery and spend 2 hours juicing it every morning. But that's not practical for most people.

There are trade-offs between optimal, practical, affordable, and pleasurable/enjoyable. And all of those are factors people care about.

Humans are certainly not like a horse who is being fed meat or a lion who is being fed bananas. We are much more flexible. Flexibility is one of our stop strengths.

john rose seems to address this idea very well

[JalenS23]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The question is more complicated than simply "What is optimal?" There is also the question of what is practical.

Perhaps it is optimal for health to grow your own fields of celery and spend 2 hours juicing it every morning. But that's not practical for most people.

There are trade-offs between optimal, practical, affordable, and pleasurable/enjoyable. And all of those are factors people care about.

Humans are certainly not like a horse who is being fed meat or a lion who is being fed bananas. We are much more flexible. Flexibility is one of our stop strengths.

I agree. But I think eating a whole foods plant based diet when getting most of our produce from the grocery store is pretty practical for most people. So many plant based staples you can buy relatively cheap and in bulk. Beans, Rice, Quinoa, Sweet potatoes, Oats, Fruits, Veggies, etc. I also think they’re pretty easy to prepare. Even doing a high raw or fully raw diet can be very practical imo, but I would say going raw generally takes more thought, planning, and time. But honestly I find making a smoothie (like your super healthy blueberry smoothie ?) doesn’t really take too much time or effort. Nor does eating some bananas, or maybe making a simple salad and blending together your own fresh dressing if you wanted to. Thats one of my favorite things about eating this way is just how simple and quick it can be. Instead of preparing a big meal, cooking with a bunch of ingredients, I can just peel some mangos and have a full meal. Or if I do want some cooked food, steam up some plain sweet potatoes or steam up some veggies and boom. Super simple and I find it delicious. I do think growing your own produce is the most optimal forsure but like you said not practical for most, so we go to the next best option. “Good, better, best” as John Kohler would say

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, JalenS23 said:

Beans, Rice, Quinoa, Sweet potatoes, Oats, Fruits, Veggies, etc.

Personally I feel terrible when I eat heavy carbs. That's like the worst possible meal for me, even if it is all organic, whole, and vegan. A big load of carbs hitting my gut kills my consciousness for about 2 hours.

If eat some smoked salmon or a burger on lettuce, my consciousness and energy is smooth and consistent.

It's so noticeable I stay away from carbs like that.

Green veggies and fruits don't create this problem for me, but they also have so little calories that I have to be eating them every 2 hours to stay energized and not hungry -- which is highly inconvenient and impractical.

[Scholar]

52 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Personally I feel terrible when I eat heavy carbs. That's like the worst possible meal for me, even if it is all organic, whole, and vegan. A big load of carbs hitting my gut kills my consciousness for about 2 hours.

If eat some smoked salmon or a burger on lettuce, my consciousness and energy is smooth and consistent.

It's so noticeable I stay away from carbs like that.

Green veggies and fruits don't create this problem for me, but they also have so little calories that I have to be eating them every 2 hours to stay energized and not hungry -- which is highly inconvenient and impractical.

Have you ever gotten your gut biome tested? Might be worth doing, because it's always possible that the root cause is found there, especially with a history of bad dietary habits.

[Hello from Russia]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Personally I feel terrible when I eat heavy carbs. That's like the worst possible meal for me, even if it is all organic, whole, and vegan. A big load of carbs hitting my gut kills my consciousness for about 2 hours.

If eat some smoked salmon or a burger on lettuce, my consciousness and energy is smooth and consistent.

It's so noticeable I stay away from carbs like that.

@Leo Gura Do you think it might be connected to your excessive weight in the upbringing? 
I used to have a huge amount of excess fat too in the past and my body reactions sound quite simillar to yours.
Of course, when I was fat I used to eat a lot of sugar and shit carbs, probably it contributed a lot to such a condition

[JalenS23]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Personally I feel terrible when I eat heavy carbs. That's like the worst possible meal for me, even if it is all organic, whole, and vegan. A big load of carbs hitting my gut kills my consciousness for about 2 hours.

If eat some smoked salmon or a burger on lettuce, my consciousness and energy is smooth and consistent.

It's so noticeable I stay away from carbs like that.

Green veggies and fruits don't create this problem for me, but they also have so little calories that I have to be eating them every 2 hours to stay energized and not hungry -- which is highly inconvenient and impractical.

Honestly, I feel the same exact way with cooked carbs. Thats why I strive to eat fully raw and get my carbs from fruit. As much as I love the taste of Japanese sweet potatoes for instance. Those things are like sleeping pills and feel way too heavy on my system. They can be good for grounding occasionally but just seem way too dense and even clogging to my body. Idk if they effect everybody like that, i’ve heard a lot of people feel great eating cooked carbs like sweet potatoes, rice, oats, squash, beans, etc. But when i’m eating fully raw, lots of fruit and some greens, keeping it low fat around 10% of my calories coming from fat. My energy is through the roof and steady all day. Like pretty insane. No crashes, no blood sugar spikes, not a stimulated form of energy, 0 caffeine, Just steady clean energy and consciousness, even rushes of euphoria. The only cooked food i’ve found that doesn’t completely knock me out are really steamed veggies and to a lesser degree than the sweet potatoes, steamed quash. And maybe Quiona on its own but I don’t find it very tasty plain since I like to keep my meals simple. So for the most part, I choose and strive to stay away from cooked food completely because even the less sedative options like steamed veggies still seem to take my away from feeling as good consistently in all areas of life as when i’m eating fully raw. Maybe, because Idk if you’re open to just jumping into a fully raw vegan 30-90 day challenge, before that just to see if anything resonates and makes sense, give the book the “801010 diet by douglas graham” a read and see what you think. I think its much different than a typical fad diet type of book. It really goes into to our anatomy and brings in the science into what might be the most natural and optimal diet human bodies were designed for. Its a complete paradigm shifting book on diet imo.  It also explains how to eat this way, meal plans, its all pretty simple. And lots of testimonials. Easy quick read. If you do and even give the lifestyle a try, I’d love if you shared your experience. My only disclaimer, is that when going fully raw and excluding all cooked foods and animal products. Your body will likely go through a detoxification phase. So you might feel worse before you feel better. Some people experience flu like symptoms for a period of time and then they feel the best they’ve ever felt. Or you might just jump into it and feel amazing off the start. I’d give it time though. Its def a lifestyle and not just a diet. It can take time to fully transition. 

[JalenS23]

Just now, JalenS23 said:

Green veggies and fruits don't create this problem for me, but they also have so little calories that I have to be eating them every 2 hours to stay energized and not hungry -- which is highly inconvenient and impractical.

Personally I like to make big smoothies. Like 12+ ripe bananas, frozen blueberries, maybe some Spirulina, maca powder, coconut water, sometimes spinach or a green powder, sometimes a little chia, flax, or hemp seeds.  Thats one big reason people fail on raw diets is simply due to not eating enough fruit and calories. 100% you have to eat a much larger volume of food and that can be hard for some people especially intially. But your stomach should eventually stretch and get used to the volume of food and it’ll become second nature to sit down and have a meal of 5 or 6 big mangos. Or 10 bananas. Or 20 little oranges. Or a big salad, or a big green smoothie. Etc.  I can still manage to get 3000+ calories a day eating fully raw (i’m pretty active, I know everyone’s caloric needs are different) 

[SgtPepper]

The problem with saying meat is the cause of cardiovascular disease is that these studies are measuring the SAD and do not account for the quality of meat people eat. In addition, it is correlation, not causal. That's the problem with studying nutrition, it is correlated data.

The studies people have done on tribes like Mossai and Eskimos find that they are healthy and thriving individuals despite eating raw meat, so it is not dangerous if practiced correctly. 

Yes I am biased, towards having a varied diet. I am ethnically Mediterranean, so I eat that kind of diet, generally. The reason why I speak on the topic is because I went through a vegan phase when "what the health" came out. I don't want to say I know the truth about diet, but I post to disrupt the echo chamber on here. Some vegans go on to say, that "it is best most optimal diet for everyone!", that is delusion to me. Or "Raw vegan is the best!"

Well I personally know someone who can't eat raw vegetables (they have Crohn's) because it is too fibrous. 

I also posted that video to show how natural it is to eat animals. It is nature.

@Scholar

Okay, that's not how classification works, I can accept that since I am not a biologist. However, it certainly disproves the paradigm of herbivores are meant to eat this or that, when in reality they eat whatever they want which includes meat.

I like how you talk about evolution. Science says that early hominids who ate meat, shortened their gut size and increased their brain power, through hunting and eating meat. As you know, meat is more caloric than plants for its size.

https://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2008/04/eating-meat-led-to-smaller-stomachs-bigger-brains/

Meat is intertwined with humanities growth. 

[SgtPepper]

If you're eating that many fruits, you are just getting high on sugar, on cronometer thats roughly 190g of sugar. 

I also feel the best on a low-carb diet. I feel more satiated and mentally consistent. No flatulence either. I also notice with less carbs and more fats and protein, my body hair looks fuller and my skin feels hydrated.

[Scholar]

7 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

@Scholar

Okay, that's not how classification works, I can accept that since I am not a biologist. However, it certainly disproves the paradigm of herbivores are meant to eat this or that, when in reality they eat whatever they want which includes meat.

I like how you talk about evolution. Science says that early hominids who ate meat, shortened their gut size and increased their brain power, through hunting and eating meat. As you know, meat is more caloric than plants for its size.

https://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2008/04/eating-meat-led-to-smaller-stomachs-bigger-brains/

Meat is intertwined with humanities growth. 

Science doesn't say early hominids who ate meat, shortened their gut size and increased their brain power, through hunting and eating meat. Science does not work like that.

The theory is: Cooking our food, including meat, lead to a greater consumption of calories which lead to enable our species to evolve towards a bigger brain due to us being able to use more fuel. Hunting, as a social activitiy, required communication and abstract thinking skills which allowed for this kind of intelligence to evolve.

To say "Meat increased our brain power" is a reductionistic view of what was actually going on. It's like saying "Eating grains made civilizations!", because cultivating specific plants and doing agriculture allowed us to change our lifestyles and develop cities. To imply that therefore wheat is healthy for us is just utterly absurd and ignorant of all the nuances.

Slavery allowed for humans to go from a species that struggled to survive to a species that was able to focus it's energies on spiritual and technological advancements.

"Slavery is interwined with humanities growth."

"Wheat is interwined with humantities growth."

Sure, they are. What relevance does that have for how we should behave in the future? It's like you used swim rings to learn how to swim, but because you don't realize the actual function of the swim rings you now keep using the swim rings because "They are interwined with swimming growth!".