People at the top of a hierarchy aren't there because they have power

[tenta]

The hierarchy is what is giving them power, so it's x causing y, not y causing x, you can have power which can help you get at the top of the hierarchy but most of the time the power they have is coming from the hierarchy and others believing in the hierarchy - having beliefs about how the hierarchy is valid

To someone like Jordan Peterson there is only: the hierarchy which is just obviously allegedly going to put the hardest working, highest IQ, moral people at the top

Ofc this will not be admitted because there are many mechanisms and mental gymnastics to make sure a hierarchy or a narcissist fantasy isn't shattered, such as punishing people who question or ignoring/banning criticism, or trying to keep the hierarchy clear but also a little subtle (if it's too blatant/clear the egos and devils at the bottom will leave and it will cause more controversy) why would it be easy for an ego to give up one of the things that people spend tons of money/effort on (like someone spending 500$ to become a moderator on an online forum).

[tenta]

The fact that people who are high up the hierarchy are known for that instead of other qualities points to something, hard work of the people at the top of the hierarchy is much more highlighted so it reinforces the belief that hard work is what got them there when in reality there are others working hard and having the qualities they're highlighting

[Leo Gura]

There is a complex interplay between the two.

Plenty of people at the top do deserve to be there because they are exceptionally skilled, talented, experienced, and hard working. But there are many exceptions such as Trump.

In a modern corporation you will not rise to the top unless you are exceptionally good at your job. But even so, that doesn't justify the exploitation of those below you.

[tenta]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

In a modern corporation you will not rise to the top unless you are exceptionally good at your job. But even so, that doesn't justify the exploitation of those below you.

 

Or you could be a family member of the CEO, and  someone who is zealous about believing in the hierarchy and defending it at all cost to prove their own superiority AKA someone who is more likely to join/climb it for that reason, will be much more inclined to exploit those below them

[remember]

i‘d say it is not related to the hierarchy because sometimes the ones next in line would be the better leaders but are not allowed to bring change - it’s not always the hierarchy which is to be questioned but the competence, sometimes even of those who worked themselfs up. what kind of instinct do you think someone needs to work themselves up in a business built on strong authoritarian hierarchies? so the problem from the start is more that some businesses could only be built because of the hierarchy and can only be sustained by the hierarchy until someone comes along who reshapes the structure from within and that has to do with competency. but in a strong hierarchical structure that will always be questioned because it’s not based on the same principles.

Edited January 7, 2020 by remember

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, tenta said:

Or you could be a family member of the CEO, and  someone who is zealous about believing in the hierarchy and defending it at all cost to prove their own superiority AKA someone who is more likely to join/climb it for that reason, will be much more inclined to exploit those below them

In practice that's hard to pull off. Public corporations are so competitive that even the CEO could get fired any day if he fails to perform up to expectations.

Of course there are always exceptions but most large corporations do not tolerate nepotism these days. Competition is just too fierce to allow such things to fly.

Of course there are other problems with hierarchies and domination which have nothing to do with simple nepotism. There is more sophisticated devilry at work within large corporations. The devilry gets extremely sophisticated in order to sneak under the radar.

[electroBeam]

I disagree. There is a belief in the hierarchy, and that belief collectively means you must do what your boss wants, but the hierarchy doesn't give you power like how it did back 500 years ago.

The thing that gives you power is having an inspiring vision, being extremely talented in your craft that it makes others look at you like a jesus, and having the emotional intelligence to make others trust you, and feel like you keep them safe. 

Hierarchies give power to societies that deeply value respect. In these societies, they value the person above them just because of the hierarchy alone. Countries like the middle east, Russia, North Korea and China are like this. Western countries have a disrespectful culture where they think they are better then their bosses, so they do what their boss says because they have to rather than because they believe in hierarchies. 

 

If you don't belong as a boss, in business you will get fired. In government, people below you will leave and if your boss notices this, you will get fired as well. If you don't get fired as a bad boss, it usually comes down to laziness, superiors don't want to fire you because it's too much hard work. And If it's government then there's no pressure. In primitive cultures like China, or medieval Europe, you place in the hierarchy was more to do with family heritage, ties, social class, etc. Not these days.

 

Hierarchies are problematic because they impose gender inequality, wage slavery, lack of fairness, strategies that serve the business instead of humanity, etc. We need to end hierarchies for these reasons, but not because of the reasons in medieval Europe.

[tsuki]

On 6.01.2020 at 1:15 PM, tenta said:

The hierarchy is what is giving them power, so it's x causing y, not y causing x, you can have power which can help you get at the top of the hierarchy but most of the time the power they have is coming from the hierarchy and others believing in the hierarchy - having beliefs about how the hierarchy is valid

That may be true for some more sophisticated, abstract, hierarchies but does not explain things like military supremacy.
A policeman can arrest you, possibly beat you up, and even press charges for resisting.
You do not obey the law only because you believe that he will (hopefully!).

A person at a certain point in the hierarchy has to be able to perform the duties that are required of him/her.
This ability to perform the duties is constituted in personal power that is not derived from the hierarchy and is grounded in belief only to some extent (self worth). You actually have to be competent to be a CEO for a long period of time.

Of course, the hierarchy itself does provide power (resources) for the ones that are high in its ranks, but this power is not the only thing that these people work with. Power breeds more power. That's why egos are so addicted to it.

Edited January 8, 2020 by tsuki

[tenta]

33 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Hierarchies are problematic because they impose gender inequality, wage slavery, lack of fairness, strategies that serve the business instead of humanity, etc. We need to end hierarchies for these reasons, but not because of the reasons in medieval Europe.

 

Ofcourse, they're designed to be good for the top 10% or so and are designed for narcissists who aren't going to admit they won unfairly and try to keep the hierarchy

Sure they don't give you as much power as they did in medieval times, but do they still do it to another extend, without a major change hierarchies will attract sociopaths because that's inherent to hierarchy as we know it

If you stop respecting someone above you in the hierarchy will his orders stop having the same effect? No, you'll still be punished if you don't follow orders an play the role of someone who hasn't worked as hard as them and doesn't have as high of an IQ or whatever, it doesn't have to be respect it can be not wanting negative consequences

[tenta]

28 minutes ago, tsuki said:

That may be true for some more sophisticated, abstract, hierarchies but does not explain things like military supremacy.
A policeman can arrest you, possibly beat you up, and even press charges for resisting.
You do not obey the law only because you believe that he will (hopefully!).

A person at a certain point in the hierarchy has to be able to perform the duties that are required of him/her.
This ability to perform the duties is constituted in personal power that is not derived from the hierarchy and is grounded in belief only to some extent (self worth). You actually have to be competent to be a CEO for a long period of time.

Of course, the hierarchy itself does provide power (resources) for the ones that are high in its ranks, but this power is not the only thing that these people work with. Power breeds more power. That's why egos are so addicted to it.

Other people can do that, but the policeman could get away with it because of the set hierarchy

"This ability to perform the duties is constituted in personal power that is not derived from the hierarchy and is grounded in belief only to some extent (self worth)." Yes that is true, but it wouldn't work if you weren't at the top of the hierarchy, and you could have this but not climb the hierarchy

[tsuki]

28 minutes ago, tenta said:

Other people can do that, but the policeman could get away with it because of the set hierarchy

Yes, a corrupt policeman can get you beaten up and get away with it because he is a part of the hierarchy.
That does not imply that all of the policeman's power come from it. Being in a hierarchy multiplies the personal power you exhibit (for good or bad purposes). Imagine a disabled policeman that has muscle atrophy and can't swing a baton. He would not be able to capture you, or perform his duties and the power that is granted to him by the hierarchy would lie dormant.

You are not merely what you believe about yourself. Hierarchies are not merely what societies believe them to be.

28 minutes ago, tenta said:

"This ability to perform the duties is constituted in personal power that is not derived from the hierarchy and is grounded in belief only to some extent (self worth)." Yes that is true, but it wouldn't work if you weren't at the top of the hierarchy, and you could have this but not climb the hierarchy

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the relevance of this part.

Edited January 8, 2020 by tsuki

[tenta]

Just now, tsuki said:

I don't understand

What you're saying is an argument used to justify hierarchies, so, now I am saying that you could have those same traits that the people at the top, but not be at the top of the hierarchy, because it's not designed to be fair

[tsuki]

@tenta I am not justifying hierarchies. They are not designed to be fair.
What I am saying is simply that hierarchies are a tool that multiplies personal power.
I was under the impression that your argument relied on the assumption that personal power is irrelevant to hierarchies. I disagree with that part.

What I believe is that problems with hierarchies are a consequence of populating them with wrong people.
I haven't studied enough examples to draw conclusions on a systemic level to say that all hierarchies are bad/good.

Edited January 8, 2020 by tsuki

[Matt8800]

On 1/7/2020 at 6:03 AM, tenta said:

The fact that people who are high up the hierarchy are known for that instead of other qualities points to something, hard work of the people at the top of the hierarchy is much more highlighted so it reinforces the belief that hard work is what got them there when in reality there are others working hard and having the qualities they're highlighting

@tenta Thats definitely not my experience.

I was raised by a single mother that was a waitress half the time and on welfare the other half. I was a millionaire by the time I was 33. 

For me, it was totally hard work, intelligence, good instinct and strength of will. I got to the "top" because I believed it was up to me. Many times, others stay at the "bottom" because they believe they dont have a choice in the matter, although that certainly isnt always the case.

Whatever you believe will tend to be true. I believed I could accomplish whatever I wanted to accomplish so I did. I never paid attention to people that would say I didnt have a chance because I started out severely disadvantaged. Maybe that applies to other people but not to me....because I believed that to be so.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Matt8800

[tenta]

Just now, Matt8800 said:

@tenta Thats definitely not my experience.

I was raised by a single mother that was a waitress half the time and on welfare the other half. I was a millionaire by the time I was 33. 

For me, it was totally hard work, intelligence and strength of will. I got to the "top" because I believed it was up to me. Many times, others stay at the "bottom" because they believe they dont have a choice in the matter, although that certainly isnt always the case.

Whatever you believe will tend to be true. I believed I could accomplish whatever I wanted to accomplish so I did.

Now ask yourself how many people also put in hard work, have a high IQ, have high willpower and believe they can accomplish the goal - but don't

Would you have achieved the same results if you were deformed? If you lost a leg? If you were severely depressed and had trouble getting out of bed every day?

Also I am talking about more specific hierarchies not just making money in general

Edited January 8, 2020 by tenta

[Matt8800]

On 1/8/2020 at 7:20 AM, tenta said:

Now ask yourself how many people also put in hard work, have a high IQ, have high willpower and believe they can accomplish the goal - but don't

Would you have achieved the same results if you were deformed? If you lost a leg? If you were severely depressed and had trouble getting out of bed every day?

Also I am talking about more specific hierarchies not just making money in general

@tenta First, I havent met too many people that have as much willpower as I do so I have no idea. I have succeeded at just about every business I have started and rose to the top. I lost my money and went out and made it again. If I lose it again, Ill go out and make it again. Its never been that hard for me. I lived in a storage unit once after a business failure and started a new business while living in the storage unit that made me my first million.

The difference between me and others is I have massive willpower and believe I will rise to the top in everything I do. I have no fear.

I was severely depressed but because of all the willpower I have, I got out of bed regardless. Not sure why having a deformed leg would have stopped me from starting a finance company

Someone with less intelligence, less willpower, lack of belief in themselves and has fear will not be able to do what I have done. Someone that needs the illusory security of working for someone else will never be able to come close to what Ive done. I have never worked for other people and never will.

Your attitude will keep you broke because you dont take responsibility for your future. I take total responsibility. Have you ever considered you are simply doing it wrong (working for someone else, wrong business, etc)? I might not succeed as easily as someone whose father is a billionaire but how much money does someone need?

Continue with your philosophy if you want but its to your own detriment. 

Regarding other hierarchies, Ive always risen to the top in every "hierarchy" Ive participated in BUT I always start my own company so its my hierarchy. The reason I rise to the top is precisely because of my attitude. I never pursued a four year college degree because if I need the knowledge, I have just hired people with degrees to work for me. Degrees are for employees, not the owners.

I may sound arrogant but Im trying to be frank about my approach to make the point. With all that said, if you are going to work for someone else, than you will remain their slave 40 hours a week. Companies dont hire employees to make the employees rich. People start companies to hire employees that will make the founders rich. You are confused on what is causing someones failure to rise - they are working the wrong vehicle, wrong attitude, ignorance, ego, etc, etc.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Matt8800