What is sleep

[Bennn]

Been a wild day. So many things swirling in my brain. Hope everyone had a great Sunday.

I was thinking about consciousness and love and how it could conceivably make up all that is. Then I thought of sleep. From everything that I've observed - when I am out like a brick, I am not conscious or aware at all (duh right?) How does this fit into a paradigm where consciousness is all?

[Stakres]

Sleep is a biological process, occurring in human primates, which helps them regenerate to be able to continue living, hunting for food and procreating.

The biological explanation is simple.

[LastThursday]

56 minutes ago, Bennn said:

I am not conscious or aware at all

How do you know this, if you are not conscious at the time? How is it possible to be aware of not being aware?

[Nahm]

You know falling asleep and you know waking up. Direct experience is so clear, that it appears tricky. 

[Chakra Lion]

 

[Shin]

You can actually be aware of being asleep.

I could do it a year ago, I was aware the whole night of being sleeping.

I experienced falling asleep, dreams,  deep sleep and waking up, all from one single point of view.

Tl;dr : You're just lazy and want to think you're unconscious ?

[Stakres]

6 hours ago, LastThursday said:

How do you know this, if you are not conscious at the time? How is it possible to be aware of not being aware?

Well, you wake up at 7am and recognize that there was no awareness of "you" between 11pm-4am. Maybe you had awareness let's say 4am-6am during a dream, and then there was no "you" again until you woke up. So you were NOT AWARE during some sleep parts. There was no awareness of "you".

 

5 hours ago, Shin said:

You can actually be aware of being asleep.

Tl;dr : You're just lazy and want to think you're unconscious ?

This is gaslighting (wiki gaslighting). This is a shaming tactic and just disassociates OP into thinking that he isn't "there" yet, that he has to seek for more. How can you know he is lazy and what he wants to think?>

Reality is obvious and simple and OP already has seen it. He was unconscious during sleep. That's it. That's the simple explanation.

 

It's great that you are able to be aware of the whole night during some night.

@Shin Have you been aware of "you" for the whole duration of your lifetime or have there been times where you were unconscious? An honest answer would be great.

 

 

 

[Shin]

2 hours ago, Stakres said:

Well, you wake up at 7am and recognize that there was no awareness of "you" between 11pm-4am. Maybe you had awareness let's say 4am-6am during a dream, and then there was no "you" again until you woke up. So you were NOT AWARE during some sleep parts. There was no awareness of "you".

 

This is gaslighting (wiki gaslighting). This is a shaming tactic and just disassociates OP into thinking that he isn't "there" yet, that he has to seek for more. How can you know he is lazy and what he wants to think?>

Reality is obvious and simple and OP already has seen it. He was unconscious during sleep. That's it. That's the simple explanation.

 

It's great that you are able to be aware of the whole night during some night.

@Shin Have you been aware of "you" for the whole duration of your lifetime or have there been times where you were unconscious? An honest answer would be great.

 

 

 

This was a joke, the « ? » was supposed to make it so it was super obvious ?

Of course there was a time I was unconscious, pretty much all my life ?

Edited January 6, 2020 by Shin

[Stakres]

@Shin Hmm. Sorry, I didn't get that it was a joke.

I would think that many people on this forum would take that statement literally, so that's not ideal to put it that way.

[LastThursday]

3 hours ago, Stakres said:

Well, you wake up at 7am and recognize that there was no awareness of "you" between 11pm-4am.

Right.

So you retrospectively "fill in" the fact that you had no awareness. 

It's like this. Fill in the missing word: "I was not aware of being _____ last night". Oh that's easy, "asleep". But there a lots of words which could go in there, "drunk" for example, or "robbed". 

My point is that you can't be aware of not being aware, it's a contradiction. You can only ever paint over the cracks retrospectively. For all you know whilst asleep you turn into a multi-dimensional being with tentacles, but you would never know. You wake up, but always fill-in the wrong experience: I was just a human who lost consciousness.

[Stakres]

1 minute ago, LastThursday said:

So you retrospectively "fill in" the fact that you had no awareness.

Exactly. Afterwards you became aware that you had no awareness.

 

1 minute ago, LastThursday said:

My point is that you can't be aware of not being aware

Yes you are not aware at that moment. But afterwards you recognize that you were not aware.

 

Quote

For all you know whilst asleep you turn into a multi-dimensional being with tentacles, but you would never know.

Yes during sleep you are not aware of "you". I and 10 of your friends can most likely stand next to your bed while you sleep and verify for you that while you were not aware, you still remained a human primate and haven't turned into a squid with tentacles.

 

Quote

You wake up, but always fill-in the wrong experience: I was just a human who lost consciousness.

Question everything you believe. Why is being a human who lost consciousness a wrong experience?  I would really love you to go deep on this one. Why is it wrong experience to be human?

[LfcCharlie4]

From the absolute perspective: 

It is the mind that is not present during sleep, Consciousness is ever present and is all, therefore simply cannot disappear. Why do you think many love sleep so much? It is one of the only times they get to experience their true nature.

I know when I felt depressed in the past, sleep was my favourite activity as it gave me a rest from the mind. 

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/deep_sleep_anaesthesia_and_death_202

[purerogue]

How about when you do not remember something and think that you were not aware, but then you remember that you were aware after all? 

[LastThursday]

3 hours ago, Stakres said:

Why is being a human who lost consciousness a wrong experience?

Sorry my bad, you've settled on the wrong "wrong". The wrong experience I was pointing to was that you "lost consciousness" whilst asleep. As soon as you start filling in experiences retrospectively (i.e. rely on memories, yours or other people's), you are in fantasy land - it is merely a construction or mental model of what may have happened - and I can't stress it enough: it is not actual.

3 hours ago, Stakres said:

Yes during sleep you are not aware of "you". I and 10 of your friends can most likely stand next to your bed while you sleep and verify for you that while you were not aware, you still remained a human primate and haven't turned into a squid with tentacles.

Except their accounts about what happened to you when you were asleep will again happen retrospectively. It's the same problem.

You wake up someone says 'yeah, you were completely asleep, we measured your brainwaves and it looks like you were unconscious and by the way you didn't have tentacles'. You can never be 100% certain that you're not being told a lie, that their data is wrong and so on. There's always doubt. You can never confidently declare: "yes I was not aware when I was asleep."

The solution to the doubt and to the contradiction is very simple. You are never not conscious. Consciousness is 'always on'. 

[Stakres]

3 hours ago, LastThursday said:

The solution to the doubt and to the contradiction is very simple. You are never not conscious. Consciousness is 'always on'. 

Using your logic, you can never be 100% about consciousness being 'always on' either.

However you know what differentiates a precise model vs some random statement? Scientific method. We can construct experiments as you mentioned above, and verify over and over again that you were indeed asleep and a human primate.

Please setup an experiment to verify that consciousness is "always on". If we can replicate the results of your experiment, we will have verified to the best of our knowledge that indeed consciousness is "always on". I would love to see that and change my opinion.

Until then, I'll stick to models which have been verified and have more evidence.

[Inliytened1]

6 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

 

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/deep_sleep_anaesthesia_and_death_202

@Bennn this is a good description by Spira.  This was a real sneaky one for me.  But it turns out that unconsciousness is an illusion as well.  It exists as a concept or imaginary in your mind, as does the concept of death or non-existence.   It's not actual as others stated.    It was a heck of a mind fuck for me.  As @nahm said your direct experience is falling asleep and waking up. 

[purerogue]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Bennn this is a good description by Spira.  This was a real sneaky one for me.  But it turns out that unconsciousness is an illusion as well.  It exists as a concept or imaginary in your mind, as does the concept of death or non-existence.   It's not actual as others stated.    It was a heck of a mind fuck for me.  As @nahm said your direct experience is falling asleep and waking up. 

Probably everything is lying there, your feeling of time for sure. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by purerogue

[Bennn]

Still nothing that satisfying - what I'm seeing is that the "I AM" is not all and that a pure "nothingness" exists, one that foresee-ably occurs after death.  

[Inliytened1]

@Bennn this is it right here.  This is infinity.  It is everything and nothing.  There is no where to go to escape yourself as infinity because there is nothing outside of you. 

Consciousness/infinity is ever present.  You are Consciousness and you cannot escape yourself.   Death, unconsciousness, non-existence is all being imagined by Consciousness.  

 

 

 

[Bennn]

28 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Bennn this is it right here.  This is infinity.  It is everything and nothing.  There is no where to go to escape yourself as infinity because there is nothing outside of you. 

Consciousness/infinity is ever present.  You are Consciousness and you cannot escape yourself.   Death, unconsciousness, non-existence is all being imagined by Consciousness.  

That's just the thing though. Consciousness is not in sleep (not that "I AM" aware of.)

 

So it can be escaped. Am I missing something here?