Is There an Ego After Enlightenment.....?

[LfcCharlie4]

I love a good old controversial post, and talking to @VeganAwake earlier inspired me to go rewatch a Satsang titled 'Is There an Ego After Enlightenment' and make some notes to make a post here along with my own post-awakening experience, as I am genuinely quite terrible when it comes to putting my experience into words, although of course NOTHING that is ever said can be completely accurate about the absolute, although words can be great helpers and pointers  

In summary, Yes, but not in the same way as pre-awakening, therefore, Ego may not be the best term, Ramana Maharshi called it a 'pure Ego', but even that can get confusing. Let's just say there is a Human who responds when their name is called, has likes and dislikes a personality, and acts as a Unique individual but KNOWS they are Pure Awareness/ The Self/ The Absolute, as I said it's near impossible to put into words, so you could say the identification has dropped and the 'Ego' is no longer a problem as the resistance has also been dropped. 

I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS AN EGO IN TERMS OF THE EGO 'UNAWAKENED' PEOPLE HAVE

So, to start with as many of us know, when you investigate yourself, your thoughts, emotions, sensations etc you realise there is NOBODY and NOTHING at the centre, just Pure Awareness, Spaciousness, whatever you want to call it, and post awakening the Knowing shifts to knowing yourself to be The Self/Absolute, however as we function in this world it can often SEEM like and FEEL like there's a Little me, a Charlie this is happening to, but when you investigate, nobody is there. 

As the Buddha said when asked how someone knows they get this, 'Whatever arising is Not me, Not Mine' (from a Small Self perspective) 

However, again it can FEEL like it is, and in terms of functioning often does, and of course we live in 'the world' so likely have relationships, a family, career etc, therefore, typical detachment and indifference to everything as many non dual circles teach isn't always ideal, of course you're going to love your Family and be sad when they pass away, and this is NORMAL, feelings make us Human, without them we would be Robots. However, the feelings are now felt without resistance. 

As I said, true Self-Realization is about becoming more human, not becoming an Avatar, the time will come when we simply rest as pure awareness when we drop our bodies, and as always remember THIS IS IT, whatever is happening now IS IT. 

Instead, welcoming feelings and thoughts like we are a guest house is hugely beneficial, and post awakening ALL resistance is completely dropped, and what is left? This, as it is. 

Enlightenment is forever right here, right now in this very moment, as that is all there ever is.

But of course post-awakening something changes, the resistance to the now is completely dropped as I said and the 'Fault Finder' (Mind) comes to a halt, so the now is completely embraced in all of it's beauty. 

As, I said you know there is no self there, but the Ego merely helps us function and live as a human however you choose to, and enlightenment doesn't mean you become passive, instead it frees you to do whatever you wish to do in life. The Ego is not felt in the same way and is no longer a problem as I said as the resistance to now has dropped. 

The problem was always the resistance to life, and to exist as a unique being is actually a beautiful gift, you could call this a unique essence that is awareness playing and having fun.

Zen proverb- 'To Know and not to do, is not to do.' 

You always no longer think about this all day long, and simply embrace life as it is now, whatever that entails without any resistance. 

Often old thought habits still need to be challenged, for example if you have certain ingrained beliefs about Money, Health, Yourself, they may still need to be addressed or have mental momentum that needs to be addressed basically. 

An easy indicator for Typical Ego is seeing yourself as Superior/ Inferior to anything/ anyone else, as all is YOU, nobody is superior/inferior, making awakening incredibly humbling!

What dissolves is what Ramana called the 'I-Thought' and as that dissolves you are free to embrace life as it is in the now. 

Basically your ability to receive and enjoy life is embraced hugely and as a result you are able to embrace life fully as it is, moment by moment. Life becomes a spontaneous joyous experience, moment by moment. 

Whereas, often the Ego-Self would avoid and restrict life, especially anything 'Negative' and has many mechanisms to do so. 

Also, awakening allows us to open our hearts completely and love is an ever deepening exapansion and from this we live a life of compassion, kindness and empathy. This does not necessarily mean we have to become a teacher, but means whatever we do it is always coming from love and in order to help people 'improve' their lives. 

And, awakening of course makes you realize EVERYTHING/EVERYONE is The Self, everyone is you, which will forever change your life. 

In terms of awakening making us passive: 

Total acceptance does not make us passive, say there is an acceptance we are overweight, does this mean we accept it and do nothing? No, true acceptance means we fully accept we are overweight and THEN take action and do what is needed, in this example clean up your diet and exercise, so you research what you need to do and go do it basically. Same for any situation in life

You don't simply stop doing, you see how doing arises spontaneously within you and from this take action/ 'do' whatever you want to, if anything awakening frees you up to do whatever you truly want to in life, that may involve going to join a monastery or doing very little and that is also fine, whatever YOU want is fine, everyone will be different, believe it or not  (9 Enneagram Types help show this a LOT, as always Enneagram work is hugely recommended) 

In fact you can actually become more productive as YOU no longer get in your own way, and whatever is needed/ you want to do, you simply do it. 

Remember, we are still human, will have a personality/ Enneagram type, this is okay, it is just like Awareness is driving a certain type of car, to exist as unique beings means there will be some definition, what fun would it be if everyone was exactly the same and we were all robots? So, yes it can be said you will become MORE human and MORE You post awakening, yet if you investigate there is no self at the centre of it all, what an incredible paradox just like a lot of this stuff is! It is impossible to put into words but I tried my best, most importantly, Awaken and Live in the now without resistance, no matter what arises. 

[Consilience]

Fantastic post! 

[LfcCharlie4]

The Best way I have heard to phrase some of these issues- 

'It has the form and function of ego but not the substance and reality.' 

That basically summarises what I said, maybe I should've just wrote that lol. 

Also in terms of what changes, everything is seen to have 'Infinite precious value' no matter what arises, the 'ordinary' becomes the extraordinary so to speak, and every moment is a spontaneous joy, it is like duality and awareness merge in one fantastic blow and they are seen to be exactly the same thing, again hard to put into words. 

I've also seen the term 'Transcendental Individuality' which kind of helps explain how having a unique human personality and being a human, yet KNOWING you are Natural Pure Awareness/ The Absolute. You get to have your cake and eat it  

Yes, you can know yourself and BE natural pure awareness, yet retain your sense of being a person and having a unique human identity and a full personality, meaning you can do whatever you wish and enjoy life like never before. 

There is nobody like you in this world, Yet you are all that exists, do you see why it's near impossible to write about this?#

You become more human than before, not less and it is more than beautiful, in fact the beauty is indescribable. 

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@modmyth hmmm maybe not controversial but I thought many would have let's say objections, I often think it's more of a language thing and how certain terms are used and people use them differently. 

I guess it's because when Non-Dual teachers say 'There is nobody there' (which is true) people then start to deny their humanity, and ignore the human side of awakening. 

The scariest story I heard was a teacher saying the 'highest spiritual state' is having no thoughts or feelings and basically being numbed out, aka becoming a narcissist. 

So, I thought I'd make a post that it's okay to have feelings, thoughts, be a human and have a personality and be a unique being, while also KNOWING you aren't The Ego and when you investigate you will never find anyone there. It's so delicate and hard to explain, but in essence, it means you get to be a human and know you are The Self.

@Consilience Thank you mate  

[Nahm]

@LfcCharlie4 The actuality of this is the “how”, the full circle, “Cosmic Consciousness”, so it is potentially relatively very controversial, and no one who knows talks directly about it. The Multiverse / Many Worlds Theory, M Theory, The Copenhagen Interpretation, superposition & entanglement are all pointing to the same actuality.

[SoonHei]

[VeganAwake]

"A person who has self-confidence and high self- esteem (what western psychologists would call a healthy ego) is no nearer to freedom than anyone else. Such a person may feel that he is happy and that he needs no fundamental changes in his life. A person who has understood that his ego is continually causing him mental trouble is more likely to look for a solution. There is no such thing as a healthy ego any more than there is a thing called a healthy disease. The ego cannot lead to freedom it can only obstruct it. Ego and freedom cannot co-exist. When ego vanishes, freedom replaces it"  -Papaji

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by VeganAwake

[Consilience]

Just now, VeganAwake said:

"A person who has self-confidence and high self- esteem (what western psychologists would call a healthy ego) is no nearer to freedom than anyone else. Such a person may feel that he is happy and that he needs no fundamental changes in his life. A person who has understood that his ego is continually causing him mental trouble is more likely to look for a solution. There is no such thing as a healthy ego any more than there is a thing called a healthy disease. The ego cannot lead to freedom it can only obstruct it. Ego and freedom cannot co-exist. When ego vanishes, freedom replaces it"  -Papaji

Interesting. This is a contracted view of ego. While in a sense, there is certainly wisdom to this perspective, we can also expand the ego's meaning to anything that carries out survival both biologically and psychologically, the sense of separation, and the individuality of your specific experience of life and 'the way things are.' Believe it or not, this force of survival, this energy of survival, PERSISTS after one awakens to who they are. And this stream will continue to cascade after one steps out. Enlightenment is about stepping out of the stream and watching it pass by, not disrupting it, not casting judgement on the stream and trying to stop it. The stream will flow regardless as it as been doing for eternity. At least... That's what I think  

From this pov, freedom cannot obstruct ego anymore than ego can obstruct freedom. Freedom is your natural, authentic state. Ego is merely appearance, it's form, it's distinction. The Truth is always true, that's what makes it truly true. And plus, the stream is beautiful beyond description, it would be a shame to fight against it. 

[TheUniverseIsLove]

@LfcCharlie4 ?

[VeganAwake]

25 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Interesting. This is a contracted view of ego. While in a sense, there is certainly wisdom to this perspective, we can also expand the ego's meaning to anything that carries out survival both biologically and psychologically, the sense of separation, and the individuality of your specific experience of life and 'the way things are.' Believe it or not, this force of survival, this energy of survival, PERSISTS after one awakens to who they are. And this stream will continue to cascade after one steps out. Enlightenment is about stepping out of the stream and watching it pass by, not disrupting it, not casting judgement on the stream and trying to stop it. The stream will flow regardless as it as been doing for eternity. At least... That's what I think  

From this pov, freedom cannot obstruct ego anymore than ego can obstruct freedom. Freedom is your natural, authentic state. Ego is merely appearance, it's form, it's distinction. The Truth is always true, that's what makes it truly true. And plus, the stream is beautiful beyond description, it would be a shame to fight against it. 

It's like the ego becomes deflated and is rendered useless because you are not feeding it any longer.

You can't really ever get rid of an ego because it isn't real, it's a mind made program.

I like to look at the ego as a dysfunctional survival mechanism..

You don't feed it and you don't try to kill it ...you just pay it no attention and it deflates on its own.❤

Liberation from the egoic self agenda is when true Freedom actually begins...

I'm glad you found a kernel of wisdom in that perspective, it's from someone who was regarded as one of the greatest masters of all time. ?

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by VeganAwake

[Unjigorjigor]

Thanks for the notes @LfcCharlie4  

From my experience the ego tries to subsume the awakened state. When I know of my nothingness, the "I" might've gained a new identity. It is "my" nothingess, "I" am Pure Awareness. The ego just wants a name. There aren't any names. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@SoonHei Ramana always says it best?

[LfcCharlie4]

@VeganAwake Yeah as we mentioned Ego is never the right word, it’s better to say you continue to exist as a unique human being until you die, BUT know yourself to NOT actually be that and be The Self.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Unjigorjigor yeah as I said Ego = wrong word really. 
 

And, plus it’s always The Absolute/ Awareness that takes care of everything anyways, yet we do still exist as a unique human being, maybe Transcendental Individuality is a better term. 

[VeganAwake]

4 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@VeganAwake Yeah as we mentioned Ego is never the right word, it’s better to say you continue to exist as a unique human being until you die, BUT know yourself to NOT actually be that and be The Self.

It really doesn't matter what you call it. You could call the ego dirty underwear if you want.

The ego quite literally is the mechanism or mind created program that makes you feel separate lacking or incomplete. You can always recognize dirty underwear for its desire to attain more, more more more money more power more love more of everything.

It's my personal belief that dirty underwear subconsciously knows it isn't real so it constantly seeks outside of itself for completion ...Weather its by money, power, love whatever... it's never satisfied, it keeps you running on the hamster wheel forever because it wants to find something to complete it, and perpetuate the belief its reality... but the problem is, it isn't real lol.

Liberation is quite literally describing the freedom from the egoic self agenda that runs a human being around endlessly making it feel like something needs to be done.

When it's recognized that everything is already perfect the ego is out of a job and it deflates on its own.❤

 

[Nahm]

@LfcCharlie4 There never was one mate. ♥️

[Nahm]

5 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@VeganAwake Yeah as we mentioned Ego is never the right word, it’s better to say you continue to exist as a unique human being until you die, BUT know yourself to NOT actually be that and be The Self.

Much love man, but....why would you get on saying you are something which you honestly know you are not? Isn’t that akin to what got “you” into the path to begin with?

Go to the user account / profile of @Faceless...and read every post. I can virtually garuntee one of the greatest aha moments experienced thus far on the path. 

[seeking_brilliance]

@Nahm haha only read every post? ??? That's a huge task.  Although I can finally understand all the movement of thought and time speak that turned me off before.  (well not really understand, but it's received, if that makes sense) He seemed pretty put together from the start, must have been some aha moment...  

Edited January 5, 2020 by seeking_brilliance

[ajasatya]

14 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Is There an Ego After Enlightenment.....?

There has never been. The entire Universe says I through many of its manifestations, human beings included.

[Consilience]

To everyone saying there never was an ego, you are misunderstanding what’s being said. Ego = the psychological survival of particular communication styles, preferences within form, the way you dress and look, the fact that a body continues to eat and survive, etc. The self is falsely identifying with this force of survival and thinking it is a static  and consistent ‘thing’ when it is fundamentally a stream of appearance surviving, while also never truly surviving. This force, this energy has nothing to do with enlightenment, with truth. Saying it never existed is one perspective yes, or acknowledging the force of the energy’s existence is another. Just keep in mind the relativity here. There is survival post awakening. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Consilience