"Safe Spaces" concept is counter-productive

[Matt8800]

I encountered the term “safe space” on another post and thought I would share my thoughts on the subject.

Heres why the idea of “safe spaces” has no place in self-actualization:

 

The idea that one’s feelings matter, and are valid, is false. Feelings are a product of one’s attachments and/or aversions that arise from thought. Intentional feeding of counterproductive thoughts is a result of an undisciplined mind. It is pure illusion.

Suffering is caused by attachments and aversions. On the spiritual path, the goal is to untangle from the attachments and aversions; NOT indulge in illusory  judgement and victim-hood. The goal is equanimity. When that state is maintained, one cannot be “triggered”.

Another thing that often accompanies this idea is almost a celebration of weakness and rejection of strength. Thats ass-backwards. The thought that spirituality is synonymous with weakness is unhealthy.

The “need” for one’s feelings to be heard and validated by someone else is pure egotism. It accomplishes literally nothing but feeding the needy ego. The only real solution is to master the ego through meditative techniques, detach and accept what is. “Safe spaces” and spiritual evolution/self-actualization are on opposite ends of the spectrum imo.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Matt8800

[DoubleYou]

Detaching and accepting what is, litteraly means being able to feel.

When you detach from emotion, feelings can then finally be felt fully, instead of pushed away all the time.

Emotion is the clinging to ones feelings, and letting go of emotion is the letting go of this clinging. Feelings will always be there. Its part of being human. The aim therefor is not to get rid of them, but to let them flow, without ever being held up. Without stagnation. Without causing emotional reactions. 

So, its not a celebration of weakness. Its an allowing of whatever we label as weakness to come forth, and see it as an illusion. A mere story we choose to believe in. And with that, we no longer need to push the accompanying feelings away, what would be the point? And so they can be experienced as they are.

Every feeling is neutral. And emotions are the labels we give to the feelings, and with that we judge them as either good or bad. Pleasant or unpleasant, whatever. And so they seem to lose their neutrality, when in fact they never did.

[Matt8800]

3 hours ago, DoubleYou said:

Detaching and accepting what is, litteraly means being able to feel.

When you detach from emotion, feelings can then finally be felt fully, instead of pushed away all the time.

Emotion is the clinging to ones feelings, and letting go of emotion is the letting go of this clinging. Feelings will always be there. Its part of being human. The aim therefor is not to get rid of them, but to let them flow, without ever being held up. Without stagnation. Without causing emotional reactions. 

So, its not a celebration of weakness. Its an allowing of whatever we label as weakness to come forth, and see it as an illusion. A mere story we choose to believe in. And with that, we no longer need to push the accompanying feelings away, what would be the point? And so they can be experienced as they are.

Every feeling is neutral. And emotions are the labels we give to the feelings, and with that we judge them as either good or bad. Pleasant or unpleasant, whatever. And so they seem to lose their neutrality, when in fact they never did.

@DoubleYou Well said!

 

[Girzo]

People experiencing emotional turmoil don't need listening to dry spiritual talks. They need to feel accepted, perfect as they are. That doesn't mean you validate their bullshit stories but just accept the fact that they are there. I am all in for safe spaces.

If they lack this element their whole pursuit for change, efforts put into spiritual purification will be just another manifestation of aversion.

[Matt8800]

1 hour ago, Girzo said:

People experiencing emotional turmoil don't need listening to dry spiritual talks. They need to feel accepted, perfect as they are. That doesn't mean you validate their bullshit stories but just accept the fact that they are there. I am all in for safe spaces.

If they lack this element their whole pursuit for change, efforts put into spiritual purification will be just another manifestation of aversion.

@Girzo Its not about whether I accept them as they are ....its about them indulging in their needy ego. Im fine but they are free to make their journey as long as painful as they like.

I wont judge them but I will not enable or validate a victim mentality or their insistence that the world cater to their entitlements. I will treat them with kindness but they might not see tough love and Truth as kindness. For some people, the only thing they would recognize as kindness is indulging and validating their victim-hood.

There is nothing in what I said above that would indicate that I dont accept them. As far as being perfect as they are, I suppose their stagnation and self-inflicted pain is perfect for them at that particular time in their path. 

I accept them as they are, including accepting their stagnation and self inflicted pain. If they are ever ready to transcend their egoic indulgences, I would be the first to offer to give patient advice. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Matt8800

[Parththakkar12]

@Matt8800 There's a difference between validating how someone feels and enabling their victimhood! The former is a human emotional need. Denying yourself a need will make you go for it in subconscious and manipulative ways (as we all see on social media).

Needing other people is 'weakness' if you're scared of them! Spirituality doesn't mean you stop needing people as a human being. The human body will work the way it works, however 'spiritual' you become.

On 1/4/2020 at 8:39 AM, Matt8800 said:

“Safe spaces” and spiritual evolution/self-actualization are on opposite ends of the spectrum imo.

Getting what you want (whatever that may be) is a good thing for spiritual evolution! Enlightenment comes only after you see that it didn't make you happy/it didn't take away your suffering. Denying yourself what you want, on the other hand, is unnatural and counter-productive. It's basically denying the reality of what you want, which is anti-spiritual.

[Yog]

You might find this interesting. It touches these aspects of stage green.
 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Yog

[tsuki]

On 4.01.2020 at 5:21 PM, Matt8800 said:

I wont judge them but I will not enable or validate a victim mentality or their insistence that the world cater to their entitlements.

Either you have never come into contact with a genuine victim, or you are in denial of your own suffering and pretending to be above it. Grow up.

[Matt8800]

12 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Getting what you want (whatever that may be) is a good thing for spiritual evolution! Enlightenment comes only after you see that it didn't make you happy/it didn't take away your suffering. Denying yourself what you want, on the other hand, is unnatural and counter-productive. It's basically denying the reality of what you want, which is anti-spiritual.

@Parththakkar12 I would disagree with your claim that feeding a needy ego is spiritually healthy. This is enabling with good intentions. It actually reinforces  their weakness. You see this concept play out when parents do too much for their children and they end up living unemployed in their parents basement as adults spending their life on video games and porn. Their parents have good intentions because they dont want to cause stress for their adult child but in reality, they are hurting them.

My counter-claim is that detaching from a needy and illusory ego is spiritual evolution. Validating unhealthy neediness is just reinforcing an unhealthy ego. I believe that exercising tough love, with trying to minimize hurt, is a way to lift others up.

If they reject tough love then there is nothing you can do for them anyway. 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Matt8800

[Matt8800]

3 hours ago, tsuki said:

Either you have never come into contact with a genuine victim, or you are in denial of your own suffering and pretending to be above it. Grow up.

@tsuki There are genuine victims of things like rape, childhood abuse, etc and there needs to be a healthy way of transcending it. That is not what im referring to. Nobody is saying they shouldnt be listened to but on the other side of the coin, excessively fixating on past hurts is not going to help them transcend it either. There are balanced, therapeutic methods if someone is truly looking to transcend past hurts.

Im referring to people that react to "micro-aggressions", political drama, etc..or need to be "heard" regarding their personal drama. If they have a hard time with a micro aggression, what are they going to do when real adversity comes their way? In many ways, its an insult to people in their world with real adversity. Can you imagine great people in history crying about a micro aggression and needing a "safe space"? It would never happen, which is why they were great.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Matt8800

[Parththakkar12]

Just now, Matt8800 said:

Im referring to people that react to "micro-aggressions", political drama, etc..or need to be "heard" regarding their personal drama. If they have a hard time with a micro aggression, what are they going to do when real adversity comes their way? In many ways, its an insult to people in their world with real adversity. Can you imagine great people in history crying about a micro aggression and needing a "safe space"? It would never happen, which is why they were great.

I understand what you're saying. Getting  triggered by 'micro-aggressions' is a personal problem and the resolution to that would be to master your emotions.

A lot of our emotional issues have to do with lack of connection with each other. This means that we need each other's help to master our emotions because the human nervous system equates being alone with death! These emotional issues can be traced back to childhood traumas.

Would we need safe-spaces for doing this emotional mastery? I think so. Are the safe-spaces today designed for emotional mastery? Probably not. The thing is, these are the most progressive people we have. The rest of us haven't recognized emotional issues to be real issues!

[Yog]

@Matt8800 I'll offer you my observations, mostly on a cultural level and less on personal one.

I can see the utility of safe spaces for more serious traumatized folk, cases of real victims as a temporary solution that prevents trauma to come to the surface. Some people can overcome it when they come in contact with it, but for some it can be even more traumatizing, ending up even worse.... In the end it would be most beneficial both for them and the people around them to work it out and get better and well, so they can go and help other people.

How and to what degree to do this on a societal level, I have no clue, I am far from an answer. But on a personal growth level, we know the answer, its put and hold your hand in the fire. I am not posting this to bash the concept, just to bring forward some uncomfortable things I've seen about it.

This is just something generational that I have observed in my surroundings which leaks into safe spaces. It makes me uncomfortable to even write about it, but yea, fuck it. Its always better to have it in the light.

-There is the advent of the millennial/gen-z generation, whose parents were forced to submit to authority, denied choice, beaten/disciplined, ended up feeling not important. And what did these kids do when they grew and had their own kids. They told their kids that they can be anything they want, they are important, did not discipline them in any hurtful ways, were far more careful with that, there should not be any bad feelings. When they got out in the real world, these kids quickly encountered the diversity and brutality of the real world. Can't blame them for that, both types of parents meant love, i am sure of that. I am a millennial myself, I have seen many of my friends go to ruin because of this, its quite sad when you see it happen. I just had pure fucking luck to have had more balanced form of parenting. Sadly this mindset also fell victim to rising technologies, from arcades and computer games to social media, along with the aggressive stage orange marketing these days, this combo ruins people...

In the end you end up with a broken generation, lost in the digital world, avoiding pain at all costs, seeks pleasure at all times, lack discipline, has short attention span, full of fear of missing out ect. And they are 25-30 years old. Also they have been lied to by society that the purpose of life is to be happy, something quite often equated to feeling good, so when you suffer, you think you are doing something wrong, which brings you further to ruin.

-Now you can see how this huge target group is free to be exploited by political end spectrum victim type of ideologies, you might even say egrigores. I get to be good person, the more good things I can associate with myself, the better, i care about others, I am a victim, not just a victim, I am a part of a victimized group, and the perpetrator is also a group, I want to disperse all the responsibility and not take it. It makes me a morally good person and the evil is elsewhere. When I am not feeling good, its not my fault, there is a list of things I can say that are the reason for it, but its not me. I know how things are and I do not have to live in chaos and question them. You can see this both on the far right and the far left. Its quite heartbreaking, yet it is there.

I've seen quite a few friends and associates that were, lets say quite blue or even red in most of their developments, suddenly jump to green. If this is the case, and I am quite unsure if it is. It looks like a "transcend and repress" followed by "resist and preserve" situation. I think this is far more common than people would like to admit. The drag of green is strong these days, it can pull you towards it, while not letting you stay at lower stages. I don't remember me or others going few stages in one year without any work or effort, except in some cases where psychedelics were involved. But you can see how this rises the demand for safe spaces.

On the positive side of things. I thing the solutions is there, this is something you learn in small part when you are blue and in big part when you are orange. The lessons of - I am responsible for how I feel, what I do, what is done to me, there will be hard times, discipline will be required, I might not feel that good while doing it, but it will pay off, basic delayed gratification, I control where my focus/energy goes. These things ring very healthy-orange to me.

If people had "passed and stayed" at healthy orange, they will not have the demand for safe spaces when they get green.
So in this sense, I do believe the solution is there, integrate.

This is something regarding these popular liberal "new" types of safe spaces.
When thinking about history... yea man...people always created safe spaces, that is how tribes , religions, nations form .
No one wants the discomfort of new ideas, there is always the tempting voice inside that continually seeks the comfort of form.
For things to be as they were. The far right is an expert at safe spaces in this regard.

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Yog

[Matt8800]

On 1/14/2020 at 9:44 AM, Parththakkar12 said:

I understand what you're saying. Getting  triggered by 'micro-aggressions' is a personal problem and the resolution to that would be to master your emotions.

A lot of our emotional issues have to do with lack of connection with each other. This means that we need each other's help to master our emotions because the human nervous system equates being alone with death! These emotional issues can be traced back to childhood traumas.

Would we need safe-spaces for doing this emotional mastery? I think so. Are the safe-spaces today designed for emotional mastery? Probably not. The thing is, these are the most progressive people we have. The rest of us haven't recognized emotional issues to be real issues!

@Parththakkar12 How are "safe spaces" relevant in any way if we simply treat others with kindness?

What does promoting safe spaces do for people that promoting kindness doesnt?

[Parththakkar12]

@Matt8800 A lot of mastering your emotions involves healing from childhood traumas. We have inner child aspects that get emotionally triggered and defensive in response to certain traumatizing stimuli. A 'safe space' would be useful to help each other work through these extreme, unpleasant emotional reactions. Now, when you're working through that, the last thing you want is for someone to say/do something that is unintentionally re-traumatizing! This is such a huge issue that a lot of people are too scared to be vulnerable outside therapist's offices. The safe space would give you freedom around whom you want to trust, how vulnerable you want to be, etc. Not everyone is capable in participating in the healing of specific people, and the safe space would help discern that.

Treating each other with kindness is nice, but not quite enough. We collectively need to help each other heal and dare I say, heal each other. This needs to become a lot more mainstream than doing it in a therapist's office!

[DrewNows]

Healthy boundaries solves this issue, but people need to be willing to develop them on their own. Sometimes vulnerability can be misconceived as weakness and advice can enforce dependency, even tough love can be an excuse to try and fix or change someone. 

 

[Hatfort]

The posibility to self actualize out of the safe spaces does not disappear though. People who use them, don't live permanently inside of them, actually, They have a wide world to experience whatever meanness it offers daily, they actually do.

There can be people who find it difficult to fit in the conventional gender identities or roles. Boys that have been bullied during their childhood for being effeminate or whatever other reason. Same for girls for being masculine or other reasons too. Maybe people who have suffered violence or sexual abuse, in their childhood or later. You think these people have not experienced meanness out of the safe spaces? Maybe they have more than you ever did or will, give them a break, I say just let them have whatever space they feel they need, it doesn't harm me in any way.

Maybe it does help them in their self development, different people develop in different ways.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Hatfort

[Matt8800]

2 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Matt8800 A lot of mastering your emotions involves healing from childhood traumas. We have inner child aspects that get emotionally triggered and defensive in response to certain traumatizing stimuli. A 'safe space' would be useful to help each other work through these extreme, unpleasant emotional reactions. Now, when you're working through that, the last thing you want is for someone to say/do something that is unintentionally re-traumatizing! This is such a huge issue that a lot of people are too scared to be vulnerable outside therapist's offices. The safe space would give you freedom around whom you want to trust, how vulnerable you want to be, etc. Not everyone is capable in participating in the healing of specific people, and the safe space would help discern that.

Treating each other with kindness is nice, but not quite enough. We collectively need to help each other heal and dare I say, heal each other. This needs to become a lot more mainstream than doing it in a therapist's office!

@Parththakkar12 If you are suggesting that we need designated "safe space" areas, thats not realistic. If someone has something that is so traumatic, it would be unwise to share it with anyone that they have not already developed a lot of trust for. If by "safe space", you mean discussing trauma for the purpose of healing with a kind, wise confidant, than I agree but why use the phrase "safe space".

If I need to share something painful with my kind, wise significant other, I wouldnt refer to it as a safe space.

What is the difference here? Are you suggesting that people should unload their drama in public places?

Many times people share with me past trauma and I try to help them. Why is "safe space" a necessary label for that?

[Matt8800]

2 hours ago, d0ornokey said:

Some people have a lot of pent up feelings in them which causes suffering 

A safe space allows people to bring up these bottled up feelings and experience relief from this pain of not feeling understood, alone, or rejected. 

It's like therapy, and mutual support. Like helping each other up. The need to be comforted, loved, understood can be extremely healing. It's actually incredibly powerful but a trap is that you find comfort with other people and never get to the root cause 

@d0ornokey So, in other words, be kind and understanding.

Is kind and understanding the definition of safe space to you? Do they differ in some way?

If we were to say, "Be kind and understanding. Dont be an asshole", would that solve the safe space issue?

[Parththakkar12]

@Matt8800  I'm just saying we need this. What's unrealistic/impractical today will become realistic/practical tomorrow!