The question of having children

[danilofaria]

The question of having children or not is one I have struggled with quite a bit for most of my life. Leo's latest video (Reproduction Is An Illusion) addresses one of the main reasons why people have kids (to reproduce their genes), and why this does not matter.
However, I would appreciate a discussion on the other reasons people decide to have kids and to what extent they are valid or flawed. In my specific case, I've never had an inner desire to have kids and I tend to feel like it would be such a huge investment of time and effort for me that it would end up severely hurting the other goals I have in life. 
But for me, one of the main arguments for having children (or for having a family generally) is that you need people who genuinely love you at the moments when you need to be taken care of. Leo did mention in his video that in today's society, one doesn't really need his or her family to survive, but I could think of many scenarios where being by yourself vs around your family could save your life (e.g. you got a heart attack and need someone to call emergency for you).

I am aware of some of the counter-arguments. One of them is that it is up to you to be as healthy as possible and do all you can to never need anybody's help. The flaw of this argument is that by being as healthy as you can, you are simply delaying the moment when this will happen. Also, certain health problems are not related to one's habits and are inevitable.

The other counter-argument is that even if you have children, there is no guarantee that they will be decent people and will get your ass when you need it. Fine argument, but still having a child gives you higher chances of having someone for you than not having one at all.

In the end, I really tend to not wanna have children. But this argument (which I admit is a selfish argument) is one which I struggle to find a solution for. Please share your thoughts. 

[CreamCat]

First, make friends and build your tribe. Make a family if you like. If you don't like, don't.

If your health deteriorates to the point of no return and you expect to suffer greatly, you can choose euthanasia. You can choose to dig your own grave by paying for euthanasia and funeral service. A controlled death is better than a long downward spiral.

Edited January 3, 2020 by CreamCat

[Byun Sean]

In my opinion, don't have kids if it's for the reasons that you fear being alone and have no one to help and support you. Especially if your into this work and personal development, you will grow yourself to meet all your needs effortlessly in time.

Have kids if you find joy in it. If your heart wants it. If you genuinely would love growing, raising, and relating to a new life.

 

The choice to have or not have kids is yours. I just think if you choose to have kids out of fear, you will regret it. If you choose to consciously out of love, no regrets

[exhale]

@danilofaria

I appreciate that you are honest and candid about your thoughts towards having children: thank you for that.  

Though, it is very problematic if the backbone of your intent to (hypothetically) have kids is transactional in nature.  If you have kids with this sole intent, there would be a lack of mutual bonding, love, and respect and ultimately those kids would not be there for you when needed. 

Counterintuitively, if you had kids with an altruistic intent to love and care for them, to be a role model and teacher, to support them when they need you.  This is how bonding, love and respect are cultivated.  Then, these kids would be there for you when needed. 

Having kids (I have two) has been both the most wonderful and challenging components of my life.  It has enriched my life and my sense of purpose intensely.  I know that a lot of you are doing deep spiritual work and are focusing on the Truth, and that is great for you.  But damn, there is some pretty awesome stuff we can experience as a lowly human (living a human life), and having (and raising) kids is one of them. 

 

[danilofaria]

@exhale Thank you for your reply from the point of view of someone who has kids and enjoys it. I would really appreciate it if you can elaborate a bit on how the experience of having kids has enriched your life and given you a sense of purpose. Please do share your insights.

 

[exhale]

@danilofaria I'd love too!

It starts with conception and the "miracle" of fetal growth and child birth.  Watching the fetus grow in your partners abdomen over 9 months, and feeling your baby kicks on the stomach wall.  Although they are probably just kicks, you can't help but feel like it is some primitive communication method.  

Then child birth, another miracle.  Watching your partner go from indescribable pain to instant, unmistakable, unconditional love.  Of course, it can all be explained through evolution theory and the endocrine system--this doesn't matter when you are in the moment.  It is overwhelming passion. 

As your child grows and matures, you get to experience the joys of the little things.  Their smile, their laugh, their cry, their developing personality--and how it compares and contrasts with yours, listening to them tell stories, read books, and make new friends.  You get to experience the magic of birthdays, Christmas, or even just car rides, or visiting relatives from the eyes of an innocent child.  

As a parent, you try to be the best role model you can be.  Although imperfect, you try your best.  You try to be the best person you can be, and they are little mirrors the reflect everything you do back at you.  They are the ultimate accountability machines!  Which is both a blessing and a curse.  You try to provide a warm, loving, supportive home--but at the same time, strike a balance between protecting them and allowing them to face their own problems and challenges.  It provides an opportunity to strategically raise your child, to help allow this little human grow into a well-adjusted person.  

Inevitably, you personally will have to leave something on the table.  Of course, it is important to set aside time for your self-care and personal interests--but there is only 24 hours in a day.  As wonderful as kids are, they are time and energy intensive!  Therefore, there isn't always enough left in the tank at the end of the day for your personal interests.  It can be very difficult to make anything spiritually intensive happen--10 day silent retreat...  possible... But limited time and $, and logistics for who will take care of the kids. Not to mention, you probably won't want to leave them for 10 days  As well, given the frequent dialogue of exploring psychoactive treatments for spiritual advancement.  As a parent, you have to consider the potential consequences of utilizing these treatments.  What if you have a psychotic break, what if you develop some form of addiction, what if you accidentally harmed yourself or someone else, what if the batch is laced, what if it becomes well-known that you do this and are ostracized from the community (and the impact this could have on your children)? 

Ultimately, you (the parent) are no longer the focal point of your life.  You (the parent) are still important, but every decision you make needs to be made with consideration and respect for how it could (or will) influence or impact your child(ren).  The family unit supersedes mom or dad individually.  

My children are still young (2 and 4).  Therefore, there is still a lifetime of experiences, passions, love, and challenges to be presented.  

 

[tsuki]

13 hours ago, danilofaria said:

However, I would appreciate a discussion on the other reasons people decide to have kids and to what extent they are valid or flawed.

The biggest spiritual reason why I consider having children is to hold myself accountable for my own bullshit.
Having to watch my beloved children parrot my unconscious behavior would be unbearable.
It would either drive me mad, or be the greatest vehicle for self-development possible.

The other, down-to-earth reason, is having someone to support me and my wife when we're old.
That is, however, not a good reason, because it requires from me to mold my child a certain way for this idea to be fail-proof. I don't want to use my child as a way to support myself. I had it done to me and I know how it hurts.

Edited January 3, 2020 by tsuki

[exhale]

@danilofaria Sorry, I forgot to address the point of how children have reinforced my sense of purpose. 

As described above, you are the leader of your family.  There is a responsibility to do the best you can: personally, professionally, financially, emotionally, spiritually.  You are accountable to these little humans to be your best.  This is a tremendous responsibility that is both a privilege and a burden.  Regardless, your purpose to be your best for your family--to me--reinforces my purpose.  

With respect to life purpose.  Not only do I continue to approach my life purpose with passion and love, but I also have the goal of showing my kids that it is possible to follow your passion and make a rewarding (professionally, personally and financially) career out of it.  Something that it often said in the "real world", but rarely attained.  My dedication to my life purpose is reinforced by my desire to be a strong role model for my children.  

[Nahm]

@danilofaria

Let go of “valued or flawed”.....it’s to fill your life with Love. 

Love is the great mirror.

 

@exhale Can’t be said much clearer. ♥️?

[TheAlchemist]

People don't primarily have kids so they can spread their genes. If they would, the sperm banks would be lined up with men to spread their genes everywhere as much as possible. People have kids to experience love and meaning. The children can open up their heart valves and let them feel the deeply fulfilling love that they crave. That's what relationships are about as well, they allow us to bring the love in and bathe in the love.

We are all like love addicts, constantly searching for a new hit of that delicious love. What we don't realize is that there is an infinite spring of love within all of us if we just open up to it. So we keep chasing these external things that allow us to open up to love without ever turning inward. Having kids is just another method to feel some love.. 

If we were to consciously have children from a place of already abundant love, it would be a radically different experience for everyone involved than the traditional way of having kids to feed our own need for love.

[mandyjw]

I always wanted kids ever since I was a kid, never had much doubt about it at all. It's been the most challenging thing I've ever wanted by far. I can think of 100 logical reasons for or against having kids. It's not a logical choice at all and it should never be a rash choice or a choice made out of fear or cultural influence, it's just a knowing that comes about when and if it's right. I think it's certainly possible to find peace in being undecided too. Either way, pursue meditation and enlightenment. So much uncomfortable shadow stuff gets triggered by the subject of kids. 

[Moreira]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

I always wanted kids ever since I was a kid, never had much doubt about it at all. It's been the most challenging thing I've ever wanted by far. I can think of 100 logical reasons for or against having kids. It's not a logical choice at all and it should never be a rash choice or a choice made out of fear or cultural influence, it's just a knowing that comes about when and if it's right. I think it's certainly possible to find peace in being undecided too. Either way, pursue meditation and enlightenment. So much uncomfortable shadow stuff gets triggered by the subject of kids. 

Its not a logical choice? So how would you base your decision?

Im sure its logical. Why would I bring a innocent soul to struggle, to be brainwashed and indoctrinated in school to become another slave to feed the machine? Untill this cruel human farm collapses I wont bring kids here. Locical reason.

[Arcangelo]

On 1/2/2020 at 7:56 PM, danilofaria said:

Please share your thoughts. 

I will never have kids, they are way too expensive. I am a selfish orange, I want my time and my money for ME. Ain't nobody has time to be babysitting.

What if I turn myself into a millionaire, then I will have all the money in the world and kids won't be expensive, yeah that's a good plan but is not fail proof: what if my wife divorces me, then the kid will grow in a dysfunctional/separated family. There is not enough money in this world to make ME divorce proof. So, NO, no kids for me thanks. My chances of getting divorced are 50% I am not gonna bet my future kid's life on a coin toss. Have you guys read the statistics for males that don't live with their biological fathers. They are absurd.

 

[Arcangelo]

3 hours ago, Moreira said:

Its not a logical choice? So how would you base your decision?

Im sure its logical. Why would I bring a innocent soul to struggle, to be brainwashed and indoctrinated in school to become another slave to feed the machine? Untill this cruel human farm collapses I wont bring kids here. Locical reason.

You have a very valid point here. If you don't feed your kids to the machine, the government will say it is child abuse and take away your children.

[MAYA EL]

Having kids shows you a perspective of life that meditation never will 

It is also participating in the cycle of life and gives you a deeper understanding of how the human being grows and learns  .

There is an unlimited amount of reasons not to have a kid but that is because of ate socal programming  we are trained to make excuses but remember 150yr ago a man had to worry about his family starving or being killed or his wife dieing during childbirth so in comparison today's life is still much more family friendly then its ever been .

Now if you want your freedom and $ to go play and do what you want then I say you are definitely to immature to have kids right now but I will say that having kids is not expensive if you are smart  . Having a kid and wife cost me less then if I was single that's for sure and I also have someone to make memories with that matters and will be there with me for a very long time. 

It doesn't matter if all is 1 or not because right now this is the game being played so the only way to beat the game is to play it and not forfeit it by rejecting reality. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by MAYA EL

[mandyjw]

11 hours ago, Moreira said:

Its not a logical choice? So how would you base your decision?

The things you want are never entirely logical. The reasons you come up with for why you want what you want or in turn don't want other things come in later, and are for your own benefit to feed into a story, or reinforce how you see yourself and the world. The desire arises first. The logical mind is then used to clarify and help actualize the desire. But when we explain our reasoning to other people, most of it is justification for the choice we made.

It's preferable to trust your gut, follow your heart and use logic for you and not against you. 

When you are using logic against you, justifying your desires to yourself and others, you'll never feel sure about anything. What you want most of all is to feel sure. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by mandyjw

[Angelite]

 

Everything has been pre-determined. Whether you believe it or not. 

It can be a blessing or a curse. Depending on you. Or them. 

...

And We have already known the preceding [generations] among you, and We have already known the later [ones to come]. 15:24 ~~

I didn't choose to be born on the date I was born..

Edited January 5, 2020 by Angelite

[Matt8800]

@danilofaria Studies have shown that having children detracts greatly from life happiness. If there is any doubt, that should settle it!

[danilofaria]

@exhale Thanks for the thoughtful and thorough reply, it was delightful to read. Could you tell me briefly what led you to the decision of having kids? Was it just a desire you'd always had or was there something more to it? Do you think it is possible to raise kids properly, have an active life purpose and also a deep spiritual path all at the same time, or is it kind of a pick 2 kind of situation?

 

[danilofaria]

3 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

@danilofaria Studies have shown that having children detracts greatly from life happiness. If there is any doubt, that should settle it!

Hey, that's insightful. Can you point me to those studies?