Political identity and being trigerred emotionally

[Sizeable Oof]

Hi folks.

I think it's tremendously important to be self-reflective when thinking and discussing politics.

I think that in order for the political discourse to evolve, we need to start talking about our feelings and emotions in an open and honest way.

We need to create safe spaces, online and offline, for people to be able to express their emotions without judgment or criticism.

Personally, I find myself having a strong negative emotional reaction when listening to self-identified conservatives or right-wingers.

I am not sure what is the source of these feelings, but I do know they need compassion and understanding. They need to be validated. They are legitimate, just like all feelings.

I am really interested in "doing work" and gaining some insight into this, when it comes to myself.

I'm 30M, I live in Israel (and I'm very much against the occupation and oppression of the Palestinians), and my "ultimate" political position (although in conflict with my spiritual growth) is radical negative-utilitarianism: Efilism, anti-natalism, veganism. But ultimately Efilism (the belief that nothing is better than something and we should do our best to atomize everything).

This goes without saying, but just in case this is not obvious to some: I'm not suggesting the emotional-centered conversations should replace discussions about values and policy, rather that they should accompany them.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Sizeable Oof

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Sizeable Oof said:

We need to create safe spaces, online and offline, for people to be able to express their emotions without judgment or criticism.

Well, that's not gonna happen. Even the idea of a safe space is already ridiculed and demonized by the right-wing. And they are certainly incapable of non-judgment and non-criticism. As are most left-wingers.

If we could get everyone to agree to a safe space and non-judgment, we would already have solved 90% of the worlds problems.

Quote

Personally, I find myself having a strong negative emotional reaction when listening to self-identified conservatives or right-wingers.

Yup, I get that too. Listening to aggressive ignorance really tests one's patience and compassion. That's the challenge of our work. How do you deal with people who are so closedminded and ignorant that they might be willing to kill you for speaking truth?

Even Jesus couldn't solve that problem.

[Hatfort]

There are different ways of discussing ideas, valid in different ways.

I don't like the term safe space and even less the negative connotation that they have taken lately, but the truth is they have existed since always. For example, a church or a mosque is a safe space for those religous people, where they can discuss and develop their beliefs and ideologies. Would it be constructive to have a religious fundamentalist telling scientists on a lab that they are wrong about whatever they are doing or maybe it's better to keep it as a safe space from those unnecessary confrontations? Democratic or republican party offices, where people interested in certain type of policies discuss about them and maybe make them better, aren't they safe spaces too? A meeting of fans of Justien Bieber would be a good place for them, but what would be the point of a heavy metal fan going there to tell them he doesn't like their music?

Sometimes a group of people with a minimum consensus is the best setting to develop ideas in a positive way, someone just disagreeing all the time would not help and would only sabotage their efforts. But sometimes is good to confront opposite ideas on debates, to see how they hold against each other and having to defend them can also help to develop them in some ways. 

So you could go for both. Sometimes find your similars to discuss your ideas, maybe others you could try to debate with people with different ones. Don't try to change the views of others, but express yours without shame or fear. Sometimes you agree about some things, but disagree about others, you can point both things. If a discussion becomes uncomfortable for you, you have no obligation to continue, it's true some people can get quite offensive.

Edit: I think as safe space you meant a place where feelings are taken more in consideration, even when disagreeing. Well, wouldn't be bad, but don't count wiht that. in some cases it's good to give certain people some of their own medicine, so they taste a bit of it too and, who knows, maybe reconsider some things.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Hatfort

[Hansu]

9 hours ago, Sizeable Oof said:

Personally, I find myself having a strong negative emotional reaction when listening to self-identified conservatives or right-wingers.

 

I had this problem for roughly ~5 years. Some political topics caused a lot of negative emotions and stress. I think it was caused by my fears of incompetent people coming to power. (I realized that extreme left wing nutjobs are just that; nutjobs. They will never garner enough power to set their fantasies in motion). I also had some fear of LGBTQ people that was caused by me not understanding their means and some of their more extreme beliefs and identity politics (Like how I am supposedly "taking advantage of LGBTQ groups by being bisexual but not acting effeminately")

Basically all that dissolved as I began to follow multiple sources on Youtube. They were trans, male, female, black, white, left wing and centrist political commentators who's videos I would watch for 1-3 hours a day. Then one day few months ago I realized what I've written in this message and probably after 1-2 weeks of pondering on the topics, I just unsubbed from the channels and I haven't had a strong reaction on politics ever since. Honestly, its the best thing that happened to me in 2019! Aside from getting a permanent employment in my dream job and finishing my college degree

7 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Sometimes a group of people with a minimum consensus is the best setting to develop ideas in a positive way, someone just disagreeing all the time would not help and would only sabotage their efforts.

I think this is the biggest problem with forums that have almost absolute freedom of speech (Only illegal things are banned)

Basically people would come to wreck your discussion only because they disagree with you on something, or think your topic is shit. Ad hominem is strong in people who troll these discussions.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Hansu

[supremeyingyang]

I'd like to go meta on this discussion.

1. Firstly we need to clear that we understood each other : @Sizeable Oof, you meant finding our trigger points  in politics would help us to get over them or tackle them healthy, right? If roughly true, go to 2, but If wrong we need to clarify this.
2. My Theory is that our childhood upbringing and development from then on relative to where we are from highly influences our trigger point.
For example if you are coming from a all blue/orange community you are likely at best green in your teenage years. If you went abroad or to college you encounter many oranges, greens and some yellows. Relative to your old setting this seems fresh and new. This is all that 'Come home to Christmas / Thanks Giving Dinner and hear you relatives talk racist shit' posts on vice et al.
Now consider a second path. You grow up in a green community with strong spiritual ways, which is weak in making money. Maybe you go beyond green or you go down into orange to make a decent living. Now you get triggered by you hippie elders and their unpractical ways.
Here a interpretation alternative: Maybe you go along with the hippie parents and choose to go into a green movement, that happens to get you in jail for a political action. You surrender and call in at Stefan Molyneux' show to tell everyone about 'your sick left wing past'.
Or you go to jail, but stay to true to your values. Now you are triggered by 'the facist state' and so on..

See? Here is my formula: Interpretation of your developement relative to your developementhistory determines your trigger points

Edited January 3, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[Matt8800]

On 1/2/2020 at 0:39 PM, Sizeable Oof said:

We need to create safe spaces, online and offline, for people to be able to express their emotions without judgment or criticism.

Personally, I find myself having a strong negative emotional reaction when listening to self-identified conservatives or right-wingers.

I am not sure what is the source of these feelings, but I do know they need compassion and understanding. They need to be validated. They are legitimate, just like all feelings.

 

@Sizeable Oof Can you name one great man or woman that has impacted the world that whined that their feelings need to be validated and they need a "safe space"? Can you imagine Ghandi, Abraham Lincoln, MLK or Rosa Parks whining about how they need a safe space to express their inner feelings? They would be embarrassed to say such things and nobody would respect them or follow them.

No, not all feelings are legitimate, nor do they all need to be validated. If you look at people that agree with me, you will notice they are much stronger and emotionally resilient than people that demand every feeling they have is validated by others.

Neediness for constant validation is a weakness that needs to be transcended if real growth is going to happen. Rather than trying to get the world to cater to your weakness, wouldnt it be better to learn to be stronger?

The kind of compassion and understanding you describe is just enabling people to be self absorbed. Sometimes tough love is what is going to save them from their impotent victimhood.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Matt8800

[Sizeable Oof]

On 02/01/2020 at 11:38 PM, Leo Gura said:

Well, that's not gonna happen. Even the idea of a safe space is already ridiculed and demonized by the right-wing. And they are certainly incapable of non-judgment and non-criticism. As are most left-wingers.

Leo, man, I don't get you. Of course not EVERYONE is going to be that way, but why can't we create this on our own? As in, let's say, this forum for example. The fact that some people are close minded and hateful sometimes, doesn't mean we can't have these kind of places, that will be closed off to this kind of behavior and people.

Quote

So you could go for both. Sometimes find your similars to discuss your ideas, maybe others you could try to debate with people with different ones. Don't try to change the views of others, but express yours without shame or fear. Sometimes you agree about some things, but disagree about others, you can point both things. If a discussion becomes uncomfortable for you, you have no obligation to continue, it's true some people can get quite offensive.

Edit: I think as safe space you meant a place where feelings are taken more in consideration, even when disagreeing. Well, wouldn't be bad, but don't count wiht that. in some cases it's good to give certain people some of their own medicine, so they taste a bit of it too and, who knows, maybe reconsider some things.

I meant that what we need is:

1. Being aware of our emotions while we engage in political discussion.

2. Being able to express our emotions without being judged. This does not mean, that you can not criticize policy suggestions, for example. Please note those are 2 different things.

For example, a right wing person can say: "I feel that the actions of such and such...hurt my national identity. I feel humiliated, and beaten, and hurt, and I am raging". And a left winger could answer: "I understand how you feel, even tho I don't agree with you on the core issue. Your emotions are validated, and even tho I support the actions of such and such, I don't do it in order to hurt other's national identity. I do it to advance human rights. And when people attack [the issue at hand], I feel that they attack the basic notion that we are all equal, and that one's personal freedoms to act against the social/collective consensus, must be defended".

[Sizeable Oof]

On 04/01/2020 at 1:26 AM, Matt8800 said:

@Sizeable Oof Can you name one great man or woman that has impacted the world that whined that their feelings need to be validated and they need a "safe space"? Can you imagine Ghandi, Abraham Lincoln, MLK or Rosa Parks whining about how they need a safe space to express their inner feelings? They would be embarrassed to say such things and nobody would respect them or follow them.

No, not all feelings are legitimate, nor do they all need to be validated. If you look at people that agree with me, you will notice they are much stronger and emotionally resilient than people that demand every feeling they have is validated by others.

Neediness for constant validation is a weakness that needs to be transcended if real growth is going to happen. Rather than trying to get the world to cater to your weakness, wouldnt it be better to learn to be stronger?

The kind of compassion and understanding you describe is just enabling people to be self absorbed. Sometimes tough love is what is going to save them from their impotent victimhood.

My friend, I see where you are coming from, and I don't think we disagree.

Of course one has to develop his inner mental strength, and aspire to not being needy or dependent on things out of his control.

What  I'm saying is that as a society, we would benefit so much more if we would infuse our political discussions with the realization that our emotions and feelings are key. That is, we become more aware of what we feel, we would be more comfortable to express it, and we would be able to validate the emotions of the other side, even when we disagree with them, and even if their views give rise to strong negative emotions within ourselves.

It's not contradicting: From an individual point of view, don't be emotionally dependent in external validation. From a meta-level bird's eye view, I am arguing that this development will make our political discussions way healthier, way more efficient and direct, and ultimately more constructive!!

Thank you.

[Moreira]

You must understand that conservatives or right-wingers are not devils or evil people. They are driven by FEAR by the kind of beliefs they have.

Fear is the most powerful primal insctinct and can teake the worst of a human being.

You, as a awake people souldnt react with anger, or fall in the trap of being triggered.

Before judge people is important frist to understand his background and circumstances that lead them to become who they are.

I observed this in the show game of thrones.

I hated bad people, but the knowing their personal life could understand their reasons, and didnt look so bad.

[supremeyingyang]

@Moreira

You are right with every word in my opinion.